Where is the Beast right Now

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not sure what you mean. Can you explain further?

Sure.

im·mi·nence
/ˈimənəns/
noun
  1. the state or fact of being about to happen.
The same event can not be literally, factually imminent, literally, factually “about to happen” in both first century and the 21st century (and every century in-between)

You have to turn “imminence” into an allegorical, mythical, non literal construct for that to work, effectively stripping the word of any measurable value or literal meaning.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
He also said nobody knows the time and the hour, so we should be worried about our present rather than inferring for something you don't even know.
If that is your position, it sounds like you are in the wrong forum.
 
Upvote 0

_Dave_

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jan 3, 2019
413
231
73
Arizona
✟144,689.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Parousia70, your interpretation of the secular, dictionary definition of imminent makes sense for a secular application.

However, the Doctrine of Imminency in the Scriptural sense has an application for all readers of the word; wherever they may find themselves in history.

Hearers of the word in Christ's day were told by Christ to watch for his coming to snatch them up to Him. (Didn't happen, obviously, but Christ told them it COULD happen). Likewise, believers throughout the past almost 2,000 years of history have read that promise in Scripture, and waited for his imminent coming in their lifetimes to take them to Him. (Again, obviously, it didn't happen). And, finally, His command to you and me to wait and watch for His imminent coming to snatch us up to Him is as important an application to us as it was to the First Century believers who walked the earth the same time as Christ did.

IOW, imminency is relative to each believer's lifetime ... each person who reads, understands and believes Christ's own words and the words of Gospel writers ... that there is nothing that needs to be accomplished before Christ returns to snatch us up to Him. For each of us, as it was the early believers, and believers throughout history Christ's return definitely can be "about to happen" at any time.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Satan and his angels were kicked out of the third heaven when they first rebelled.

If that's true why does Rev 12 say he has a short time after being kicked out of heaven?
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
If that's true why does Rev 12 say he has a short time after being kicked out of heaven?
It is the second heaven, the cosmos, that Satan will be cast down to earth from in Revelation 12. The cosmos itself will be peeled away near the very end of the seven years when the sixth seal events take place.

In Revelation 11, when the 7th trumpet sounds, it is after the two witnesses ascend to heaven, after laying dead in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days having been killed by the beast, at the end of their 1260 days of testimony.

The 7th trumpet sounding is the go signal for Michael/his angels to cast Satan/ his angels down to earth. It is the beginning of the end for Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great - the dismantling begins.

In Revelation 12:6 those 1260 days are the same 1260 days of the two witnesses' time. Then the war in the second heaven in Revelation 12:7-9.

In Revelation 18, Babylon is fallen is fallen, is talking about Satan's kingdom being dismantled.

Satan's kingdom of mystery Babylon the great, is finally destroyed by the end of the 7 years in Revelation 16:19. At the same time the kingdom of the beast and the ten kings, will equally be destroyed.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
It is the second heaven, the cosmos, that Satan will be cast down to earth from in Revelation 12.

No, it is the third heaven where Michael and other angels are.

The 7th trumpet sounding is the go signal for Michael/his angels to cast Satan/ his angels down to earth.

Nope. That's way too late. They are cast out in Rev 12 before the great trib begins. The 7th trump is when Christ leaves heaven to come to the Earth to end the reign of the beast and the AC.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No, it is the third heaven where Michael and other angels are.
Michael and his angels are not restricted to the third heaven. Michael and his angels casting Satan and his angels down to earth, corresponds the time when in Daniel 12:1, in the end times, Michael stands up for the children of Israel.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And in Revelation 7, there is activity of God's angels here on earth.

1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Nope. That's way too late. They are cast out in Rev 12 before the great trib begins. The 7th trump is when Christ leaves heaven to come to the Earth to end the reign of the beast and the AC.

You need to try and put events on the 7year timeline, instead of just talking about them in a fragmented manner.

In the days of the 7th trumpet the mystery of God declared to the prophets should be finished. The mystery of God is the setting up of the Kingdom of God here on earth.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

When the 7th trumpet sounds it is a time, times, half time before Jesus descends to earth. You are not understanding the language in Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever

"are become" means that the kingdoms of this world are about to be removed from Satan's control. it starts with the casting down of Satan and his angels, the dismantling of their kingdom beginning.

When Satan and his angels are cast down to earth, the time of the bowls of wrath, in Revelation 16, begin to take place during the second half of the 7 years, as the kingdom of the beast and the ten kings is also dismantled.

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
Michael and his angels are not restricted to the third heaven.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


This is clearly being cast out of the real heaven, not outer space. And you failed to address the fact that Satan has a short time yet you claim it happened long long ago.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
When the 7th trumpet sounds it is a time, times, half time before Jesus descends to earth.


No, the second coming begins when the 7th and last trump sounds.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
No, the second coming begins when the 7th and last trump sounds.
You simply are not understanding the concept of "are become". And the dismantling of Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great.
 
Upvote 0

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
You simply are not understanding the concept of "are become". And the dismantling of Satan's kingdom of Mystery Babylon the Great.


And you don't understand that Jesus returns at the 7th trump not 3.5 years later.
 
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,685
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,691.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
And you don't understand that Jesus returns at the 7th trump not 3.5 years later.
The 7th trumpet sounds after the two witnesses ascend to heaven, and after 3 1/2 days of the world celebrating, giving presents to each other over their deaths.

That sort of condition cannot be at the end of the 7 years. But before all the trumpet judgement and bowls of God's wrath take place.

The 1260 days of Revelation 11:3, corresponds to the 1260 days in Revelation 12:6, followed by the war in heaven (the second heaven), which Satan when he is cast down has time, times, half time left, Revelation 12:14.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ewq1938

I love you three.
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Supporter
Nov 5, 2011
44,413
6,797
✟915,391.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican
That sort of condition cannot be at the end of the 7 years.


There is no 7 year period but this is what happens at the end of the trib...the 7th trump ends the trib and Jesus returns.
 
Upvote 0

Just The Facts

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Jul 26, 2003
4,939
109
63
Visit site
✟80,681.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Hello Doug

Really...... you are basing your doctrine on "are become" and you are misunderstanding it at that. Are become is Old English well middle English it means "have become".

American Standard Version
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there followed great voices in heaven, and they said, The kingdom of the world is become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ: and he shall reign for ever and ever.


Bible in Basic English
11:15 And at the sounding of the seventh angel there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ, and he will have rule for ever and ever.


Darby's English Translation
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded his trumpet: and there were great voices in the heaven, saying, The kingdom of the world of our Lord and of his Christ is come, and he shall reign to the ages of ages.


Douay Rheims
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded the trumpet: and there were great voices in heaven, saying: The kingdom of this world is become our Lord's and his Christ's, and he shall reign for ever and ever. Amen.


Noah Webster Bible
11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he will reign for ever and ever.


Weymouth New Testament
11:15 The seventh angel blew his trumpet; and there followed loud voices in Heaven which said, 'The sovereignty of the world now belongs to our Lord and His Christ; and He will be King until the Ages of the Ages.'


World English Bible
11:15 The seventh angel sounded, and there followed great voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of his Christ. He will reign forever and ever!'


Young's Literal Translation
11:15 And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'


It is the Old and Middle English way of stating past tense.

It is done at the sounding of the seventh trumpet
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Parousia70, your interpretation of the secular, dictionary definition of imminent makes sense for a secular application.
Okay....

However, the Doctrine of Imminency in the Scriptural sense has an application for all readers of the word; wherever they may find themselves in history.

Thank you for affirming my contention that one MUST believe "Imminence" in the "scriptural sense" is an allegorical, mythical, non-literal construct.

Hearers of the word in Christ's day were told by Christ to watch for his coming to snatch them up to Him. (Didn't happen, obviously, but Christ told them it COULD happen).

Incorrect.
Christ told them it WOULD happen to them:
Revelation 3:3
Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

The text does not say "I MIGHT Come....." as you would have it.
Again you must de-literalize the words of Christ for your position to work.
I mean.. that's fine if that is what you need to do.... but let's be honest about it, and lets certainly not call into question someone else's different interpretation that ALSO de literalizes scripture when we do the same thing ourselves, right?

Likewise, believers throughout the past almost 2,000 years of history have read that promise in Scripture, and waited for his imminent coming in their lifetimes to take them to Him. (Again, obviously, it didn't happen).

Which, again makes it NOT "Literally imminent" for them either, no matter how you slice it...

And, finally, His command to you and me to wait and watch for His imminent coming to snatch us up to Him is as important an application to us as it was to the First Century believers who walked the earth the same time as Christ did.

So, let's pick any random believer who lived anywhere between 50AD and 1950AD who WATCHED for His "imminent coming" and describe what kind of different outcome his life (and death) had from his neighbor, also a Believer, who did NOT watch for it?

Help me understand how "watching" made a difference to "Not watching" for their lives in their day?

I mean... if as you say it "Obviously didn't happen" then it seems to me that the believer back then who did NOT watch, was more in tune with the "Literal Truth of the matter", and thus better off spiritually than the one who watched, right?

It is as the scripture says:

Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But when the desire comes, it is a tree of life. (Proverbs 13:12)

The Believer from back then who did not watch, did not die with any "deferred hope", whereas the believer back then who diligently watched and eagerly awaited, indeed FULLY EXPECTED an event that NEVER HAPPENED, died with His hope deferred and his heart sick. :(
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
OK. So, basically, your hermeneutics informs you to reject the biblical doctrine of imminence.

I suppose in a nutshell, yes.
What I AM saying in detail is the Doctrine of Imminence, as you have described it, REQUIRES Imminence be an allegorical, mythical, non-literal construct.
That does not in and of itself make the doctrine correct or incorrect, but yes it leads me to questions its Biblical legitimacy.

I'm mostly pointing out nobody is a true, consistent Literalist when it comes to scriptural interpretation/hermeneutics.

EVERYONE applies Metaphor and allegory to arrive at their conclusions about what scripture teaches. Even you. Demonstrably so, it seems.

I'm curious when you think the rapture will occur.

I hold a Preterist view of Bible Eschatology.

When Jesus and the apostles told their original 1st-century audience that they would see certain events come to pass, I personally believe that Jesus and the Apostles were being LITERAL with them about the timing, and not allegorical, mythical and metaphorical, as it appears you are claiming.

Now, any chance you'll return the favor and answer the questions I posed to you in my Post #58?

I'm still curious how you believe the one who WATCHED ended up better off than the one who didn't?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0