timothyu

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IOW, so nothing he wrote is suspect.

I'll agree. It's always been a case of those who came later misusing his words to draw away from the ways of the Kingdom (even though he taught it also) and back to the ways of the world of man.
The Jewish followers were also eventually successfully drawn away from the temple and into the gentile church, something all the terrorizing of Jewish Christians could not have accomplished. Win win for both sides.
 
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SkyWriting

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The church as a whole for 2000 years saw it as transfromative vs the isolated few who want to lable the motivating, empowering and impassioning grace of God as legalism.
Are there any similar stories in scripture?
Has there ever been any similar stories of people having
a similar born-again experience, ever since that one?
Any similar transformative stories in the last 2000 years?
Not answering is a good answer too.
 
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SkyWriting

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Acts 9:3-5
3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. 4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?” 5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked. “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied. 6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

A very weird, unique, and suspicious story.
It really doesn't match anything else in scripture.
 
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Stone-n-Steel

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Galatians 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

There is only one gospel.

Galatians 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you. 6 But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me: 7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter; 8 (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles:) 9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision. 10 Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Since there is only one gospel and Paul confirmed he was given the right hand of fellowship with James, then we need to take that phrase "faith without works" in context and may you find James heeding Galatians 2:10 in James 2:1-26 about remembering the poor.

James starts off pointing out an abuse of the poor by how they are treated in church service. You can click on this scriptural reference of James 2:1-13 to see that rebuke towards the church abuse of the poor.

Then in James 2:14-25 You will see that James is talking about another abuse of the poor when after church service, the church would verbalize their faith in God's Providence to the poor as if by saying so, God will provide for them without the church meeting any of their immediate needs that were starving and naked from the bounty collected at church service.

It is the church's verbalized faith in God's Providence that will not profit the poor nor save the poor from starvation and the elements. In the eyes of the poor, the church's faith in God's Providence is dead, seeing how the church is not willing to lead by example.

So James was not talking about faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. James was talking about the church's abuse of the poor by verbalizing faith in God's Providence without leading by example, because they wanted to get our of helping the poor after church service.

We can see this is the kind of faith James was talking about in reference here.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

That reference to Abraham and Isaac is about faith in God providing for His servants. See here.

Genesis 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? 8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. 9 And they came to the place which God had told him of;.....

11 And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. 12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me. 13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son. 14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovahjireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the Lord it shall be seen.

The name of the place is God provides for His servant and that is the faith James was talking about in referring to Abraham and Isaac.

No one can apply James's "faith without works" to faith in Jesus Christ because salvation is without works. Paul explains this;

Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Paul even referred to Abraham for why he was considered righteous by believing God.

Romans 4:1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

There is no way James would offer the right hand of fellowship with Paul or for Paul to even accept if they were speaking 2 different gospel.

So there can be no taking James's "faith without works" or "faith without works is dead" to be applied towards faith in Jesus Christ for salvation when James was specifically talking about the abuse of the poor that the church was doing in verbalizing faith in His Providence to the poor just to get out of helping the poor after church service.

Scripture cannot go against scripture; and there is only one gospel. Do discern that.

I notice you use the KJV version which has "gospel of the" instead of "gospel to the". Do you think the translators were in error with their use of preposition in this verse?
 
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Hillsage

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Paul did not condemn Peter. He rebuked hi separating himself from the Gentiles that he was with, fearing repercussions from Jewish believers in Jesus Christ that had entered into their company. Paul was rebuking his action; not Peter's preaching as if he was preaching a different gospel.
Paul did not condemn Peter”. I agree, Paul just “opposed” Peter because peter WAS “condemned”. So who or what did condem him? IOW I’ll stick with scripture if you don’t mind, until you provide scripture proving my error, as I just did.

Rotherhams Gal 2:11 But, when Cephas came unto Antioch, to the face, [even], him, I resisted, because he stood condemned;

ASV Gal 2:11. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him to the face, because he stood condemned.

ESV 2:11. But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.

Go back and read my last post slower. I proved with many scriptures their false gospel justifying why Paul is calling Peter on the carpet. And don’t just cherry pick one little point and rabbit trail away from every thing else I called you to defend.
 
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Not David

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NOWHERE did Paul say that we are saved by "these" works and just not "those" works.
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13)
"The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory." (Romans 8:16-17)
"Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22)

All of them are based in conditions.
 
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Not David

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Paul was explaining that the blessedness of the Good News where God will not impute sin for why believers have eternal life is also applied to the Gentiles and not just the Jews.
Paul kept talking about the law during Romans, so wrong.
 
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SkyWriting

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Paul doesn't conform to my personal interpretation of the Bible, so I want to bash him.
Too late. He's already dead. But I feel your pain.
He has written enough odd advice that I just can't
find justification for in the rest of scripture.

For example, he doesn't seem to have followed
some guidelines:



Matthew 7,12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Luke 6,31
And as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

Matthew 7,1-5
“Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Mark 12,31
The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

1 John 4,20
If anyone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Luke 6,32-42
“If you love those who love you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who do good to you, what benefit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. And if you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to get back the same amount. But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return, and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, for he is kind to the ungrateful and the evil. Be merciful, even as your Father is merciful.
 
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Not David

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Too late. He's already dead. But I feel your pain.
He has written enough odd advice that I just can't
find justification for in the rest of scripture.
He is not dead, he is a Saint in Heaven.
St. Paul pray for us!
 
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Hillsage

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That says nothing
Go back and read post 19 again. This time read your quoted post first including the word in it that I bolded just so you couldn’t miss what I was talking about. Or so ‘I thought’ anyway.
 
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timothyu

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Go back and read post 19 again. This time read your quoted post first including the word in it that I bolded just so you couldn’t miss what I was talking about. Or so ‘I thought’ anyway.
Ok i'll revamp it.. Lotsa good news. Jesus' Gospel wasn't good enough ???
 
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Revelation 22:10-12

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The bottom-line of the whole gospel, and the one thing that perfectly unites Jesus, Paul, and James in their teachings, is that faith without works is dead because faith without love is dead.

You say that, but then quoted Augustine

And Augustine could say,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Faith without works can only be applied to sharing your faith in God's Providence to others. If you do not set the example, then no one can see your faith in God's providence.

Faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is the evidence of things not seen.

Those who for whatever environment they are in that find it hard to love their enemies and indeed, hate them, should be inform that they can call on Jesus Christ for the love they need and guidance on whether or not to just plainly avoid them, because we love because He first loved us and love is a fruit of the Spirit that we can trust Jesus Christ to finish His work in us to His glory.

That is an everyday thing to do; trusting Jesus to help you to follow Him thru this valley of death.

It is not a sign of whether or not, one is saved. It is a sign of one abiding in Him in His love. If a believer finds himself or herself in dire provocative situations where the devil has gripped them in a gall of bitterness, they can call on Jesus Christ for help because they are saved as forever His.

Love is what faith is meant to lead to, because faith is the re-establishment of a shattered relationship or communion between fallen man and God, who may then justify us via His indwelling ("Apart from Me you can do nothing." -John 15:5). And love is the very definition of justice for man, which is why the Greatest Commandments are what they are, and why love is said to fulfill the Law-but the right way, the New Covenant way. God places His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts to the extent that He causes us to love as we're meant to. And love acts, by its nature, for the good of others which is why Matt 25:31-46 makes so much sense in light of its criteria for judgment.

Loving others does signify a believer abiding in Him. It does not necessarily mean that sinners who do the same are saved. They may look like they are doing well without Him, but scripture would say they are not. They need to hear and believe in the gospel to be saved.

In fact a classical teaching of the church states it this way,
"At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love."
And Paul could say, in 1 Cor 13,
"...if I have a faith that can move mountains but have not love, I am nothing."
And in Gal 5:6,
"The only thing that counts is faith working through love."

And Augustine could say,
"Without love faith may indeed exist, but avails nothing."

Keeping the faith is the good fight. When we find ourselves unloving and unforgiving because of some dire and evil event, we can go to Jesus Christ for the help we need to love and forgive others. Knowing His promises and applying faith in Him to help us is how any Christian out there going through a crisis can even hope to cope and to love in order to get through their fiery trials.
 
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Revelation 22:10-12

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His gospel clearly states the ways of man are polar opposite to the will of God and we must change accordingly.

How is that working for you? Are you able to do the work of God in you to change?

Here is what Jesus said.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Here is what John said.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure....8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

Here is what Paul said; referring to how he was in the flesh when he was a Jew in verses 4-6, but considered them dung and explained why he had no confidence in his flesh in verses 7-10.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Seems like our confidence should be in the Lord Jesus Christ to change us.
 
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Revelation 22:10-12

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Paul kept talking about the law during Romans, so wrong.

Paul did talk about the law by how no one will be justified by the law but by the faith in Jesus Christ apart from the law and so you are reading Paul's words wrong.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:....26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

He also said it in Philippians too.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection

A lot of Jews became believers in Jesus Christ for which Paul and His disciples had to guard against those converted Jews trying to get believers to go back under the law, including the Gentiles.
 
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Not David

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Paul did talk about the law by how no one will be justified by the law but by the faith in Jesus Christ apart from the law and so you are reading Paul's words wrong.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:....26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

He also said it in Philippians too.

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh. 4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: 10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection

A lot of Jews became believers in Jesus Christ for which Paul and His disciples had to guard against those converted Jews trying to get believers to go back under the law, including the Gentiles.
How would the Gentiles go back to the law if they were never part of it? The only problem we're the Judaizers who said you needed to become Jew to be a Christian.
 
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Revelation 22:10-12

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How would the Gentiles go back to the law if they were never part of it? The only problem we're the Judaizers who said you needed to become Jew to be a Christian.

It happened.

Acts 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Course, what James was saying was not for salvation purpose, but for abiding in Him, obviously.
 
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SkyWriting

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He is not dead, he is a Saint in Heaven.
St. Paul pray for us!

When did Paul wake up?
Judgment day has come already?

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

John 11,11
After saying these things, he said to them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but I go to awaken him.”

Matthew 9,24
He said, “Go away, for the girl is not dead but sleeping.” And they laughed at him.

Daniel 12,2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Proverbs 3,24
If you lie down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet.

Mark 5,39
And when he had entered, he said to them, “Why are you making a commotion and weeping? The child is not dead but sleeping.”
 
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How is that working for you?
Not arguing needing Jesus to guide us. It is why He sent the HS for those of the Kingdom, not the world of man. It's not hard to hate the motives behind what man does in oppressing and seeking gain at the expense of others. Turn on the news.
 
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