“...be in subjection to the governing authorities” Romans 13

[S.O.J.I.A.]

It is God's will that we follow local law first. God's law in our hearts second.
Just as Jesus explained that local law was the Father will. (Authority over Jesus!)

John 19:11
Jesus answered him, “You would have no authority over me at all unless it had been given you from above.

so the things I mentioned are no longer sins...correct?

 

[BobRyan]

There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.

True. Wicked laws - that required that we kill babies or other such things should not be followed. But we have a lot of laws that are not wicked. Laws for individual rights, human rights, property rights, speed limits,

The constitution and our laws protecting America are in general - good ones.

 

[BobRyan]

so things such as abortion, homosexuality, prostitution, adultery, and fornication are no longer sins because the government does not declare them unlawful?

No they remain sin -- the Bible is unchanged by extreme leftist agendas. But if I lived in a state that approved prostitution (as an example) I would still hold that it is a "sin" however I would not be empowered by God to execute justice or punish those who engaged in it lawfully and sought to promote it. (Other than voting them out of office of course)

 

[timothyu]

Nothing on civil disobedience here.

James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

Bow to the governments of man or the governance of God. Your choice. Can't have it both ways. Bow to the governance of God and leave the governments of man to their own folly and self defeating ways and destruction.

 

[BobRyan]

As for matthew 28, amen. Jesus not government is the only true authority.

And in Romans 13 Jesus says to obey the government. In the case of Rom 13 -- it is one of the most oppressive and violent governments that ever existed in history.

And in that context - the Word of God commands "obedience". So unless government wants you to break one of the Ten Commandments -- or any other part of the moral law of God that defines what sin is -- you are under moral obligation to comply with the government's law according to Rom 13.

 

[timothyu]

you are under moral obligation to comply with the government's law according to Rom 13.

That shouldn't be a problem today. Governments serve mammon, not God.
Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

No they remain sin -- the Bible is unchanged by extreme leftist agendas. But if I lived in a state that approved prostitution (as an example) I would still hold that it is a "sin" however I would not be empowered by God to execute justice or punish those who engaged in it lawfully and sought to promote it. (Other than voting them out of office of course)

I'm looking for the person I quoted to answer to see if they're going to remain consistent with their position or balk.

 

[NeedyFollower]

Here’s the Scripture on the matter:

Romans 13: NASB
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (NASB)

Some would argue we are to obey government and its laws even if they are in opposition to God’s laws and His Righteousness. The following verses in Romans 13 refutes this specious claim:

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (NASB)

So we see Paul teach to obey government and her laws yet in the following verses see God’s laws mentioned and how we are to keep them, above all love our neighbors as ourselves.

We already know the men and woman of faith throughout Scriptures resisted government and local authorities when wicked laws were enacted. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego disobeyed a clear idolatrous directive:

Daniel 3: NASB
8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And Peter and John after being ordered by the religious authorities to not preach Christ tell them that is it right to heed them or God:

Acts 4: NASB
13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” (NASB)

There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.

This is a tough one because Jefferson , Madison and other deist/ humanist enlightened thinkers actually thought we had the right to rebel against and over-throw the King . Thomas Paine influenced many along those lines of thought . He was particularly apt since his father was a quasi-quaker ( pacifist ) and his mother and anglican . Paine knew scripture well and used it to his advantage against those believers loyal to the King though he died an atheist .
It is interesting that Romans said to avoid any man who causes division contrary to the doctrines that you have learned of me for he does not serve the Lord Jesus Christ but his own belly. Who through fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple . We were formed in rebellion . Shall we not reap what was sown ? Obey governing authorities ? That cow has been out of the barn for over 200 plus years unless I am dreaming .

 

[Tone]

This is a tough one because Jefferson , Madison and other deist/ humanist enlightened thinkers actually thought we had the right to rebel against and over-throw the King . Thomas Paine influenced many along those lines of thought . He was particularly apt since his father was a quasi-quaker ( pacifist ) and his mother and anglican . Paine knew scripture well and used it to his advantage against those believers loyal to the King though he died an atheist .
It is interesting that Romans said to avoid any man who causes division contrary to the doctrines that you have learned of me for he does not serve the Lord Jesus Christ but his own belly. Who through fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple . We were formed in rebellion . Shall we not reap what was sown ? Obey governing authorities ? That cow has been out of the barn for over 200 plus years unless I am dreaming .

Well, Rome's government wasn't founded righteously either, alas, what earthly government was?

Someone brought up the point of remaining under the authority we were born into. So, in the United States of America, the true authority is the Constitution and, as someone else pointed out, we are instructed to cast off any imposters who try to deny us our unalienable rights...am I right?

 

[Ken Rank]

Here’s the Scripture on the matter:

Romans 13: NASB
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (NASB)

Some would argue we are to obey government and its laws even if they are in opposition to God’s laws and His Righteousness. The following verses in Romans 13 refutes this specious claim:

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (NASB)

So we see Paul teach to obey government and her laws yet in the following verses see God’s laws mentioned and how we are to keep them, above all love our neighbors as ourselves.

We already know the men and woman of faith throughout Scriptures resisted government and local authorities when wicked laws were enacted. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego disobeyed a clear idolatrous directive:

Daniel 3: NASB
8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And Peter and John after being ordered by the religious authorities to not preach Christ tell them that is it right to heed them or God:

Acts 4: NASB
13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” (NASB)

There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.

Who decides? Which denominational standards and bylaws determine which civil laws you will follow and which ones you won't? It makes far more sense if the authorities are elders, pastors, spiritual leaders who resist evil. There is not a secular government on earth in ANY country that isn't doing something that strikes some kind of fear into it's citizens. And so... we follow these people and to resist THEM is to resist God?

 

[SkyWriting]

Proof: Why are many Christians get persecuted, punished, jailed, executed for doing what is good and what is right in many countries? Many characters in the Bible who openly opposed/disobeyed laws that undermine the commandments of the Lord and became persecuted as a result.

You have to do what is legal first. As I said.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

1 Peter 2

Submission to Authority



4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by humans but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house[a] to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says:

“See, I lay a stone in Zion,
a chosen and precious cornerstone,
and the one who trusts in him
will never be put to shame.”

7 Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe,

“The stone the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”[c]

8 and,

“A stone that causes people to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[d]

They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

Living Godly Lives in a Pagan Society
11 Dear friends, I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us.

13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority:whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.

15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God,honor the emperor.

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God. 21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.

22 “He committed no sin,
and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[e]

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”[f] but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.


You got context.

Agreed once more, proper government is to be followed anarchy is not biblical.


13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority:whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right.


And when this was not the case, Peter and Jesus and the disciples rebelled to tyrants.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

 

[SkyWriting]

What if the law of the local government states that all citizens must take the mark of the beast?

Prophesy is like warm Jello water with a couple of ice cubes
and you never know when it will set into solid Jello.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Context: Obey the law, submit to legal standing, government is obeyed above scripture.
.

Yikes.

"You shall have no other gods before me.
Exodus 20.3

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Hebrews 8 is not the Old Testament. Weirdest complaint evv-er.

you cited motley from the OT and one from the new, all refuted in context but it was odd as you just rejected my OT passages because you said it had been done away with. Weirdest post ever.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

The psalms are a general commentary on history. Still, none promote civil disobedience inside the kingdom.

Come again?

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

 

[SkyWriting]

Persecuted Christians in "restricted countries" are "disobedient / rebellious".. according to governing authorities.

My point exactly. You have nothing to gain rebelling against the country you are in.
A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

I don't pick and choose. I use a search tool that has no bias. I do skip the passages that are off the topic, but there is only one passage opposed to authority, and it turns out to be church authority. I feared that one opposed my conclusion until I read the context.
So here is my tool:
What Does the Bible Say About Government?

If you use it, you'll come to the same conclusion as I did.
Obey your local government first, follow God's Laws in your heart second.

1 Cor 7
20 Each one should remain in the situation he was in when he was called. 21 Were you a slave when you were called? Do not let it concern you, but if you can gain your freedom, take the opportunity. 22 For he who was a slave when he was called by the Lord is the Lord’s freedman. Conversely, he who was a free man when he was called is Christ’s slave. 23 You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men. 24 Brothers, each one should remain in the situation he was in when God called him.

this has to do with slavery, not government. Slavery was private property.

 

[Tolkien R.R.J]

Nothing advocating civil disobedience. Fail

no that is here.

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God


I posted those verses as you know and dodged to show not all leaders are appointed by God as you claimed, divine right of kings of the catholic tradition.

 

[SkyWriting]

so the things I mentioned are no longer sins...correct?

Sin is an internal dialogue between you and God.
There are clues, but it is mostly invisible.
Believers sins are washed clean by Jesus blood.

1 Samuel 16,7
But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not look on his appearance or on the height of his stature, because I have rejected him. For the Lord sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the Lord looks on the heart.”