Is God able to change a person's will?

[Rescued One]

Then why are there so many warnings to believers who are saved about refraining from sin and abiding in Christ that can result in loss of salvation if they are incapable of losing salvation? For example John 15 or Ephesians 5?

How do you know who is saved? The one who walks away isn't.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


The Bible tells us how to recognize a follower of Christ. The Bible tells a Christian how to live a life that brings glory to God.

Matthew 7
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

When hypocrites who actually joined different congregations are warned, they know what their end will be. They've heard the preacher many times, and made excuses in their minds. Others thought that because they heeded an altar call, they are saved regardless of there being no change in their lives. "Ye must be born again" is a verse they don't understand.

When God warns true believers, he does it for their sanctification. And the believer who reads 1 John 4 knows whether or not he has been saved. Likewise, he will recognize unbelievers and hypocrites.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Do humans possess desires? Can a person who desires his own will instead of God's be changed by God? If he can't be changed why was he made that way? Do you pray for unbelievers?

I like this question. It is crucial to understanding salvation.

Our hearts lock out love. Until we let love in and rule we can never know what it is to walk in Gods will.

So the question is a straw man. People choose to lock out love. People have to choose to admit this and let Jesus in and learn from Him.

If God forced His will into our hearts we would die. We are too fragile and everything we are defends our hearts and pain, unless love has come the reign supreme.

The door to our hearts has only one handle on the inside. Unless we open it, and lay down our defences and start to walk like children there is no hope for us.

 

[bling]

What are your thoughts on the following passages?
Romans 3

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

First off you have to take everything in context:

Paul is writing Romans to try and reconcile Jewish and Gentile Christians, both groups are Christians but most in Rome are not fellowshipping each other which is tragic. Paul has not yet been to Rome, so he has to logically show how both groups are equal and really the same.

One of the ways gentile and Jews are the same is: they all start out, “none righteous”, “none understandeth” and “none seeketh”.

This goes for the Jews just as much as it goes for the Gentile, so the Jews do not have a head start on the gentiles. Ro. 3: 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Some individual people will eventually accept God who does not have to be sought out since God is at our elbow if we just mentally turn to Him, but as a group both the gentiles and Jews are not seeking God.

Also no one has the Holy Spirit from birth. No one is born a Christian.

agree

 

[Rescued One]

Both saved and condemned alike still make the wrong decisions. Everyone still sins even after receiving the Holy Spirit. This is because the Holy Spirit does not control us He simply guides us by showing us the way.

And what did the apostle Paul say in God's word?

1. The Lord does not impute sin to the one who is being conformed to the image of Christ.
2. We are justified by faith.
3. When we see Jesus, we shall be like Him (now we see through a glass darkly).
4. Every good deed that we do is for the purpose of God's glory and is wrought by the grace of God that is with us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Who inserted the word force? OTOH, is force wrong? Would we not force a loved one to not have the means to commit suicide?



Do humans have God's wisdom and knowledge?

Isiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

If no one has the ability to seek God, should God say, "So what!"

Romans 3
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Jeremiah 17
9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

I chose the word “force” because if we do not believe and obey of our own free will then it is against our will.

Your taking Romans 3:11 out of context. It’s a reference to Ecclesiastes 7.

“Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins. Do not take to heart all the things that people say, lest you hear your servant cursing you. Your heart knows that many times you yourself have cursed others. All this I have tested by wisdom. I said, "I will be wise," but it was far from me. That which has been is far off, and deep, very deep; who can find it out? I turned my heart to know and to search out and to seek wisdom and the scheme of things, and to know the wickedness of folly and the foolishness that is madness. And I find something more bitter than death: the woman whose heart is snares and nets, and whose hands are fetters. He who pleases God escapes her, but the sinner is taken by her. Behold, this is what I found, says the Preacher, while adding one thing to another to find the scheme of things— which my soul has sought repeatedly, but I have not found. One man among a thousand I found, but a woman among all these I have not found. See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭7:20-29‬

What Paul is teaching is that no one can be saved by obedience to the law because all have fallen short of keeping it. What did Paul and Silas say to the jailer when he asked what he must do to be saved? If Calvinism is true then their answer should’ve been “you can do nothing, if God has chosen you then you will be saved no matter what you want or what you do, if He hasn’t chosen you then there’s nothing you can do to be saved.” Did the jailer not seek God?

Jeremiah 17:9-10

““The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. Who really knows how bad it is? But I, the Lord, search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards, according to what their actions deserve.””
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:9-10‬

This is not referring to all hearts. This has to do with those who are outwardly righteous but inwardly wicked. Notice God will give to each according to his ways and results of his deeds. This means not everyone will receive the same treatment. Some will be blessed and some will receive God’s wrath.

“"I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[timothyu]

Then why are there so many warnings to believers who are saved about refraining from sin and abiding in Christ that can result in loss of salvation if they are incapable of losing salvation?

Simple it all refers to the Kingdom. The Parable of the Sower and Jesus' later explanation explains it all. Paying to much attention to the ways and world of man can suck many out of the polar opposite ways of the Kingdom that they have found. It's all a matter of allegiance.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First off you have to take everything in context:

Paul is writing Romans to try and reconcile Jewish and Gentile Christians, both groups are Christians but most in Rome are not fellowshipping each other which is tragic. Paul has not yet been to Rome, so he has to logically show how both groups are equal and really the same.

One of the ways gentile and Jews are the same is: they all start out, “none righteous”, “none understandeth” and “none seeketh”.

This goes for the Jews just as much as it goes for the Gentile, so the Jews do not have a head start on the gentiles. Ro. 3: 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,

Some individual people will eventually accept God who does not have to be sought out since God is at our elbow if we just mentally turn to Him, but as a group both the gentiles and Jews are not seeking God.

agree

I apologize I did not intend to send that message written that way. I had to stop and drive to church and didn’t realize that was still saved in my post when I replied to another post. What I meant to post to you was Ephesians 2 and Ephesians 5. In Ephesians 2 Paul explains that they are saved believers who are children of God. In Ephesians 5 Paul warns these saved children of God about sinful acts of immorality that will lead to once again becoming sons of disobedience and result in receiving God’s wrath.

 

[bling]

I apologize I did not intend to send that message written that way. I had to stop and drive to church and didn’t realize that was still saved in my post when I replied to another post. What I meant to post to you was Ephesians 2 and Ephesians 5. In Ephesians 2 Paul explains that they are saved believers who are children of God. In Ephesians 5 Paul warns these saved children of God about sinful acts of immorality that will lead to once again becoming sons of disobedience and result in receiving God’s wrath.

OK

 

[BNR32FAN]

How do you know who is saved? The one who walks away isn't.

1 John 2
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.


The Bible tells us how to recognize a follower of Christ. The Bible tells a Christian how to live a life that brings glory to God.

Matthew 7
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

2 Timothy 3
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

When hypocrites who actually joined different congregations are warned, they know what their end will be. They've heard the preacher many times, and made excuses in their minds. Others thought that because they heeded an altar call, they are saved regardless of there being no change in their lives. "Ye must be born again" is a verse they don't understand.

When God warns true believers, he does it for their sanctification. And the believer who reads 1 John 4 knows whether or not he has been saved. Likewise, he will recognize unbelievers and hypocrites.

John 13
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

1 John 2:19 is in reference to antichrists which are people who deny that Jesus is God and spread lies about both Jesus and The Father. Not everyone who falls from grace fit into this category. You seem to post a lot of scriptures out of context. Notice John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His faithful 11 apostles to abide/remain in Him. According to John 6:64 Jesus knew without a doubt that they were believers yet He still felt it was necessary to give them this warning in His final messages to them before being taken to be crucified. According to the doctrine of eternal security Jesus was warning them about doing something that they are incapable of doing.

You say when God warns true believers He does it for their sanctification. If they are chosen by God and predestined for salvation the warning is irrelevant. Jesus telling someone to abide in Him when that person is incapable of failing to abide is a pointless and useless message. Just like Paul in Ephesians 5 warning the Ephesians about becoming sons of disobedience and receiving God’s wrath who were saved children of God according to Ephesians 2. These are both indications that children of God can once again become sons of disobedience. Romans 11 the branches that are grafted into the vine can be cut off and grafted back in again.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And what did the apostle Paul say in God's word?

1. The Lord does not impute sin to the one who is being conformed to the image of Christ.
2. We are justified by faith.
3. When we see Jesus, we shall be like Him (now we see through a glass darkly).
4. Every good deed that we do is for the purpose of God's glory and is wrought by the grace of God that is with us.

Being justified is just the beginning. That just means you have been made right with God. It doesn’t mean you can’t be made wrong with Him again. You forgot to mention that we must abide and endure to the end to be saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Simple it all refers to the Kingdom. The Parable of the Sower and Jesus' later explanation explains it all. Paying to much attention to the ways and world of man can suck many out of the polar opposite ways of the Kingdom that they have found. It's all a matter of allegiance.

Ok but that doesn’t explain John 15:1-10. It also doesn’t explain the warnings. Warning someone who cannot fail is just as useless as warning someone who cannot succeed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

And what did the apostle Paul say in God's word?

1. The Lord does not impute sin to the one who is being conformed to the image of Christ.
2. We are justified by faith.
3. When we see Jesus, we shall be like Him (now we see through a glass darkly).
4. Every good deed that we do is for the purpose of God's glory and is wrought by the grace of God that is with us.

What is the reason for judgement? What are we being judged for? Are we being judged for not being chosen by God? Because according to Calvin unless we are chosen by God we are incapable of being born again.

 

[timothyu]

Ok but that doesn’t explain John 15:1-10.

Why not? Those who bear fruit are of the Kingdom. Those who do not remain loyal to the ways of mankind. No place for them in the Kingdom.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why not? Those who bear fruit are of the Kingdom. Those who do not remain loyal to the ways of mankind. No place for them in the Kingdom.

Who is Jesus talking to in John 15?

 

[timothyu]

Who is Jesus talking to in John 15?

Umm.. His buds??

 

[BNR32FAN]

Umm.. His buds??

Correct so there are no seeds that fell on the footpath, rocky soil, or thorns here. Only seeds that fell on good soil. So the parable of the sower doesn’t fit this situation because according to John 6:64 Jesus is only talking to believers here. He is warning them of the consequences of not abiding/remaining in Him and the consequences cannot result in salvation. Being cut off from the vine (Jesus) thrown away to wither, and thrown into the fire to be burned does not result in salvation.

 

[sea5763]

Proverbs 21:1
The king’s heart is a stream of water in the hand of the LORD; he turns it wherever he will.

 

[timothyu]

Being cut off from the vine (Jesus) thrown away to wither, and thrown into the fire to be burned does not result in salvation.

I agree, and was confused why you thought otherwise. But your point also shows to go those who talk of those who burn forever must think those burned have salvation also. They can only suffer eternally if thy are alive so they must have somehow gotten eternal life also.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree, and was confused why you thought otherwise. But your point also shows to go those who talk of those who burn forever must think those burned have salvation also. They can only suffer eternally if thy are alive so they must have somehow gotten eternal life also.

To be honest I haven’t decided whether or not hell is a place of eternal punishment or ultimate destruction or death of a soul. I’ve remained neutral on that subject as I see it has some evidence supporting both side in the scriptures. Anyway it doesn’t pertain to me so I don’t worry about it.

 

[Rescued One]

What is the reason for judgement? What are we being judged for? Are we being judged for not being chosen by God? Because according to Calvin unless we are chosen by God we are incapable of being born again.

If you have faith it isn't because of something righteous you have done. It is because God gave you faith.

Everyone is incapable of being born again by their own efforts; they are under the control of Satan and unworthy of the new birth.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

John 3
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Who changed the Apostle Paul? He didn't. He persecuted Jesus!

Acts 26
12 Whereupon as I went to Damascus with authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me. 14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

1 John 5
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

Do you deserve salvation? I don't. Neither did Paul.