“...be in subjection to the governing authorities” Romans 13

SkyWriting

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Did God want Christians to turn in Jews to the Nazis obeying Hitler’s laws?

Did God want Judas to turn Jesus the Jew over to authorities so the Son of God would be crucified on the cross? Yes.

Was Jesus pleased to follow the rule of local law? No.
 
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SkyWriting

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What? Are you actually taking the side that Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were wrong for obeying God?

I am not pleased with the results in the slightest.
But I am tickled that you stopped at verse 20 and didn't include the chopping up of the population into pieces.


Verse 29 Therefore I make a decree, that every people, nation, and language, which speak anything amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill; because there is no other god that is able to deliver after this sort.

30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the province of Babylon.

Given the very remote narrative of the story, it sounds like the writer was not present or even has a source that was present for the events.
 
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redleghunter

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I am not pleased with the results in the slightest.
But I am tickled that you stopped at verse 20 and didn't include the chopping up of the population into pieces.


Verse 29 Therefore I make a decree, that every people, nation, and language, which speak anything amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill; because there is no other god that is able to deliver after this sort.

30 Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in the province of Babylon.

Given the very remote narrative of the story, it sounds like the writer was not present or even has a source that was present for the events.
What makes you think that?
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Here’s the Scripture on the matter:

Romans 13: NASB
1Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves. 3For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same; 4for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath on the one who practices evil.5Therefore it is necessary to be in subjection, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience’ sake. 6For because of this you also pay taxes, for rulers are servants of God, devoting themselves to this very thing. 7Render to all what is due them: tax to whom tax is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. (NASB)

Some would argue we are to obey government and its laws even if they are in opposition to God’s laws and His Righteousness. The following verses in Romans 13 refutes this specious claim:

8Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. 9For this, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

11Do this, knowing the time, that it is already the hour for you to awaken from sleep; for now salvation is nearer to us than when we believed. 12The night is almost gone, and the day is near. Therefore let us lay aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13Let us behave properly as in the day, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual promiscuity and sensuality, not in strife and jealousy.14But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh in regard to its lusts. (NASB)

So we see Paul teach to obey government and her laws yet in the following verses see God’s laws mentioned and how we are to keep them, above all love our neighbors as ourselves.

We already know the men and woman of faith throughout Scriptures resisted government and local authorities when wicked laws were enacted. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego disobeyed a clear idolatrous directive:

Daniel 3: NASB
8For this reason at that time certain Chaldeans came forward and brought charges against the Jews. 9They responded and said to Nebuchadnezzar the king: “O king, live forever! 10“You, O king, have made a decree that every man who hears the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery, and bagpipe and all kinds of music, is to fall down and worship the golden image. 11“But whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire. 12“There are certain Jews whom you have appointed over the administration of the province of Babylon, namely Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego. These men, O king, have disregarded you; they do not serve your gods or worship the golden image which you have set up.”

13Then Nebuchadnezzar in rage and anger gave orders to bring Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego; then these men were brought before the king.14Nebuchadnezzar responded and said to them, “Is it true, Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego, that you do not serve my gods or worship the golden image that I have set up? 15“Now if you are ready, at the moment you hear the sound of the horn, flute, lyre, trigon, psaltery and bagpipe and all kinds of music, to fall down and worship the image that I have made, very well. But if you do not worship, you will immediately be cast into the midst of a furnace of blazing fire; and what god is there who can deliver you out of my hands?”

16Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, “O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. 17“If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. 18“But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up.” (NASB)

And Peter and John after being ordered by the religious authorities to not preach Christ tell them that is it right to heed them or God:

Acts 4: NASB
13Now as they observed the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed, and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. 14And seeing the man who had been healed standing with them, they had nothing to say in reply. 15But when they had ordered them to leave the Council, they began to confer with one another, 16saying, “What shall we do with these men? For the fact that a noteworthy miracle has taken place through them is apparent to all who live in Jerusalem, and we cannot deny it.17“But so that it will not spread any further among the people, let us warn them to speak no longer to any man in this name.” 18And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; 20for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” (NASB)

There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.


Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Does Romans 13 Teach Unlimited Submission to Government?


Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.5 Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. 7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
-Romans 13 1-7



Context


Modern interpretations of Romans 13 is really quite recent....no Bible passages was ever intended to be taken out of context from the rest of scripture.”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011



Cursed is the man who trusts in man and makes flesh his strength, whose heart turns away from the LORD.
-Jeremiah 17.5


In Israel history the law of God was the government. Kings, Judges, elders were all under the authority of the law. In the old testament Israel to follow Gods law was to live under God himself, as their ultimate sovereign. To follow the law was to have God as king in Israel.


16 When they have a difficulty, they come to me, and I judge between one and another; and I make known the statutes of God and His laws.”
-Exodus 18.16


23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23


The God of Israel said,The Rock of Israel spoke to me:‘He who rules over men must be just,Ruling in the fear of God.
-2 Samuel 23.3 [also see 1 kings 10.9]



God created government to benefit man Dt 10.13, not man to benefit government. The purpose of the law is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination 1 sam 12 .14. I think our modern version of the “divine right of kings” can be very dangerous and can lead to sever consequences. Romans 13 was used by the church in Germany during ww2 as a reason to submit to Hitler. One pastor who spoke out and was killed for it Dietrich Bonhoeffer rightly said “Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.”

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing”
-Edmund Burke


The protestant reformation would never had happened since it was a rebellion against church and civil authority. It would be odd if God approved of a government that violated his cause and purpose he ordained it to do. If Romans 13 teaches unlimited submission, that would put God against himself and would allow tyrants to rule opposed to his law of justice and peace. It would say God is honoring and helping that witch he says is evil. When a pastor does an evil or a father it is understood as Christians to not to submit to that authority, but if the government does it their authority is not to be challenged. If we obey all the laws and submit to the state, we are making the state God and the highest authority. This is the goal of atheistic progressives and the result of government education

Many people today are unconsciousley schooled in statism. They think the authority of the civil government is absolute and limitless. They think that rights and law originate with the state.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government


Israel rejected gods decentralized union of tribes with elected officials in a republican form of government and In Samuel 8.7 God says Israel has rejected him for wanting a centralized monarchy and goes on to tell them of the freedoms lost in their choice.

Bureaucracy of centralized government grew from almost nothing under Saul to a much more developed structure under Solomon...[Israel underwent] a transition from a somewhat decentralized tribal society to a centralized rule of a king from a capital city.”
-Micheal A Grisanti Professor of old Testament masters Seminary


All Governments today such as the U.S.A are the result of some kind of revolution or overthrow of a previous government. If it is unlawful to overthrow a government than today's governments cannot be legitimate and thus we cannot submit to them as they have no authority. If they are lawful now, than who is to say another overthrow is not lawful or ordained by God? Government started after the fall to protect mankind not to harm them. In Romans 13 Paul is correcting an early christian belief that Jesus did away with Gods law [ the entirety of it, moral, political, etc] than surely no human laws are binding on man either. Paul says this is not the case and the liberty from the sacrificial/dietary laws or at least, the condemnation of the law, are not a license to do as we will and spends the next few chapter on this.

Paul command to submit to god ordained higher powers simply reaffirms the old testament descriptions of what legitimate government constitutes...Christians were not to use freedom in Christ as an excuses to avoid civil obligations in society of seeking and manning peace.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011

Verse 1

All this exists by the providential will of god. But their providential existence is not the same as having Gods' approval.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012


They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4


Romans 13 is not about tyrannical governments or the current roman empire Paul was under. V 1 The powers are meant to enforce Gods law not their own. God instituted government as his minsters [as he did the church and family] and it is right that Christians to obey and acknowledge this, Christians cannot be anarchists [also see book of Judges]. It would be a mistake to assume from V 1 “is” and conclude from it that “it ought to be” the existence of something like a tyrannical government does not make it a right. For example poverty exists, and Christians fight against it, death and disease are here, Jesus fought against them while on earth. Many families and churches misuse their God ordained purpose, that does not make it correct. In 1 Samuel 8 God called a monarchy and evil, he said Israel was rejecting him by accepting that form of government, and yet God ordained it. The right thing to do would be to oppose abuses of god ordained purposes. The example Absalom and King David. God showed those who followed Absalom did so wrongly 2 Sam 16.8 17.14.

Absalom conspiratorial tactics to rise to power in place of his righteous father, King David did not equate to God-ordained ministerial authority. Even though Absalom held de facto power and the alliance of the kingdom.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011


God used his people to do this very thing many times, for example Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. Elijah to King Ahab. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and were all praised in Hebrews 11. The midwives, Daniel, Esther and Gideon did the same. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo as well disobeyed government authority. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. I Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad on David, Isiah on Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason.

Higher powers [KJV] are always “under “ or “below” god and never posses gods approval when it contradicts the good purposes of which God ordained government. To hold to the contrary is like saying since God created the power of fire, one can use fire to burn down the homes of his neighbors.”
---Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011



V2

Verse two is speaking not on specific tyrants but the concept of government. Christians cannot be anarchist to oppose government authorities is to oppose Gods will since he created government. For example the midwives on Exodus15-21 were praised for disobedience in Heb 11.23 when Egypt had turned tyrannical. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. Danial disobeyed his King in Babylon. Many other examples could be given. The fact is Paul is dealing with the concept of government, not a specific government.


V3-4

There are limitations clauses attached to what the apostle Paul says in Romans 13. V3-4 clearly limit the rulers authority”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government


God established law to do his will not theirs. This is what governments should resemble and what is in their jurisdiction. The word “servant” is the same word for deacon. A servant serves his master's will [God] not his own, and the master decided the rules and punishments, that is Gods law. So for example, in Gods law the parents are to educate their children Deuteronomy 6 and Proverbs 22.6. If the state were to educate children they are know stepping outside of their role given by God and in violation of his law. Instead gods servant aught to serve him. This passage is not about dictators or tyrants serving themselves. Satan is called a “higher power” in Ephesians 2.2 as in Romans 3.3. Do we submit to his power? Or do we resits his authority as James 4.7 tells us to do as Peter did in Acts 4 18-19 and also

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18


“Wrongdoers” are those who who violate the peace and rights of the people. Physical force even to the death penalty can be used by the God ordained state towards those who trample on the god given rights of those peaceful people. This is the sole duty of government.

Nothing is stated here, or anywhere in the Bible for that matter, witch would expand the rights of the state beyond this simple mandate. Punish wrongdoers with the sword if necessary.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

Paul was not speaking of the current empire in Rome. If he was he was a false prophet as he said if you do good works you will not have fear of the sword but receive praise. Yet Nero killed thousands just for being Christians. They got the opposite of what Paul predicted. Rome is described as the enemy of god in Daniel 7.7 and spoken of negativity in revelation not as Gods servant. Rome killed Jesus, Paul and Peter those who most spread the gospel.


V5

Given he above, V5 just means a biblical government deserves the support of all believers.


V6-7


Caesar may inscribe a picture on a piece of gold, but where Caesar has stolen gold from a rightful holder, it cannot be rightly stated that Caesar is owed the gold coin.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission


Those who are “attending to this very thing” are obeying God. This of course does not make all tax just. If not in line with Gods law. So if a tyrant decides to take a tax from Christians outside biblical law. Such as say a tax to pay for the state to educate children in humanistic, atheistic, materialistic, statist, evolutionary philosophies. That would be an unjust tax. It would be similar to a spectator at a football game who throws his won yellow card on the field when he thinks a call should be made, its not his jurisdiction.

Nothing in the entire passage has any reference to wicked rulers. It says not one word about rebellious magistrates.”
--Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012

May God be pleased to rid us even in our day from sissified, christinish, play time religion.”
-Gordon Runyan Resistance to Tyrants Romans 13 and the Christian duty to oppose Wicked rulers 2012


Were God to ordain actions which he condemns, God would violate his covenants to all nations and would sanction on one hand what he has condemned on the other.”
--Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission 2011
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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"For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. 2Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God"

Have you posted this in regards to standing behind our current president?

To me the paragraph above that you posted is clear. God is in control and if he didn't want the current president in he wouldn't be president. Once they are in office I feel it is sanctioned by God Or at least it is a part of Gods plan and I will support them. I can see the non Christian democrats not supporting but I don't understand how Christian democrats fight to the extent they have with the passages you have posted , in mind.

't


They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4


It is an abomination to kings to do evil,
for the throne is established by righteousness.
-Proverbs 16.12


Like a roaring lion or a charging bear
is a wicked ruler over a poor people.
-Proverbs 28.15


The kings of the earth set themselves,And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
-Psalm 2 2-3



 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Yes submit to proper government, its purpose, is to punish those who do wrong. What if the government does the opposite? what did peter do? jesus? might
surprise you

Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God you.




 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Psalms 22
28 for dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.


The kings of the earth set themselves,And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
-Psalm 2 2-3


They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4



 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Sure thin':

Psalms 22
...dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

Proverbs 8
By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

Proverbs 21
The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.

Romans 13
For there is no authority except from God,
and those that exist have been instituted by God.

1 Peter 2
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him... Honor the emperor.

Titus 3
...be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work

Mark 3
If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

1 Timothy
... I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior

Daniel 2
...Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
to whom belong wisdom and might.
He changes times and seasons;
he removes kings and sets up kings;
he gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to those who have understanding;

Deuteronomy 16
“You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

John 19
Jesus answered him, “You would have
no authority over me at all
unless it had been given you from above.
Sure thin':

Psalms 22
...dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

Proverbs 8
By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

Proverbs 21
The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.

Romans 13
For there is no authority except from God,
and those that exist have been instituted by God.

1 Peter 2
Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him... Honor the emperor.

Titus 3
...be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work

Mark 3
If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.

1 Timothy
... I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior

Daniel 2
...Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
to whom belong wisdom and might.
He changes times and seasons;
he removes kings and sets up kings;
he gives wisdom to the wise
and knowledge to those who have understanding;

Deuteronomy 16
“You shall appoint judges and officers in all your towns that the Lord your God is giving you, according to your tribes, and they shall judge the people with righteous judgment. You shall not pervert justice. You shall not show partiality, and you shall not accept a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and subverts the cause of the righteous. Justice, and only justice, you shall follow, that you may live and inherit the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

John 19
Jesus answered him, “You would have
no authority over me at all
unless it had been given you from above.


I dont think anyone is suggesting anarchy or rebellion. But rebellion to tyrants who oppose gods law and purpose of government.


Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God


Because many of your passages are out of context and dont deal with the actual issue at hand, could you be so kind as to post a few verses you think show Christians own unlimited submission to goverment.
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God

You were bought at a price; do not become slaves of men.
-1 Corinthians 7.23


Those who will not be governed by God will be ruled by tyrants.”
-William Penn


it is better to trust in the Lord
Than to put confidence in princes
-Psalm 118.9


To Him who divided the Red Sea in two, For His mercy endures forever; 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His mercy endures forever; 15 But overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea,For His mercy endures forever; 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness,For His mercy endures forever;17 To Him who struck down great kings, For His mercy endures forever; 18 And slew famous kings,For His mercy endures forever—
-Psalm 136 13-18



BFdesign.jpg


The kings of the earth set themselves,And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
-Psalm 2 2-3


Christianity is a fighting religion. I don't want retreat I want attack...let us go down fighting for the right side.”
-C.S Lewis


The original American seal was “rebellion to tyrants is obedience to god” with a picture of Moses drowning pharaohs army in the red sea. Israel could either follow Moses and God into the promise land under his authority and law, or they could return to Egypt under a tyrannical form of government under pharaoh. A biblical principle is to overcome evil with good Rom 12 17-21 1 Peter 2 21-24. God looks for people to oppose injustice Ezk 22 29-20 such as tyrants. Rebellion to tyrants has been around since the origins of Christianity and supported by men like Augustine in the city of God and Thomas Aquinas in on kingship.

As government actions become more and more evil, the cause of resistance towards government becomes more and more righteous.”
-Timothy and Chuck Baldwin Romans 13 the True Meaning of Submission


The duty to resist unjust law is the product of christian thought.”
--Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government


An unjust law, is no law at all.”
-Saint Agustin


You overcome tyrannical governments with Gods law of liberty James 1.5. God gave his preferred governmental system in the old Testament. The purpose of goverment is to restrain evil men, not to give evil men Gods ordination. God himself overthrow many tyrannical governments and instituted those who would follow his whole law James 2.10. His laws and not mans should be followed

Then Haman said to King Ahasuerus, “There is a certain people scattered and dispersed among the people in all the provinces of your kingdom; their laws are different from all other people’s, and they do not keep the king’s laws. Therefore it is not fitting for the king to let them remain.
-Ester 3.8


God gave rights and liberty to man being created in his image that are not to be violated by man. A violation of a God given unalienable right is a violation of man being created in the image of God. So man made government that has violated Gods laws for mankind is in rebellion towards the King of Kings. Any nation that follows Gods law will be blessed Deuteronomy 28.1-14 Psalm 33.12 and any nation that does not, will be cursed Deuteronomy 6 15-57.

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4


It is an abomination to kings to do evil,
for the throne is established by righteousness.
-Proverbs 16.12


Like a roaring lion or a charging bear
is a wicked ruler over a poor people.
-Proverbs 28.15


There are reasons for just war Ecclesiastes 3.8 proverbs 20.18 24.6 Numbers 21 21-24 Luke 14.32 Exodus 22.2 and the conquest narratives in Joshua for example. Jesus himself is often armed with a sword rev 19, 1 Chronicles 21:16, Joshua 5.13, Numbers 22.23 and others. In Judges 5.23 God condemns the Meroz who refused to fight his enemies. Jael was praised for killing the Canaanite general Sisera by driving a tent peg through his skull. God himself overthrow governments multiple times in the old Testament even by the use of warfare.

The LORD is a man of war
-Exodus 15.3


Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord deceitfully,
And cursed is he who keeps back his sword from blood.
-Jeremiah 48.10


Stephen and Paul affirmed and commended Israel for fighting in those OT wars in acts 7.46 13 19 and Heb 11 33-34. God raised up Moses, Gideon, Ehud, Jephthah, Sampson, Esther, and Deborah to trow off tyrannical governments and restore Israel to the king of kings, and they were all praised in Hebrews 11.

23 But Gideon said to them, “I will not rule over you, nor shall my son rule over you; the Lord shall rule over you.”
-Judges 8.23


When Jesus returns he will overthrow the governments of the world united against him.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him [Jesus] was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.... out of His mouth goes a sharp[g] sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.... the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
-Revelations 19


Other forms of resistance in the bible took place such as In acts chapter 5 Peter replied to the officials “We must obey God rather than human beings!” and they put Gods word above mans Acts 4.19. 2 Kings 11 the tyrant queen Athaliah declared treason against those who followed God and Jehoiada the priest had her executed. In Daniel 6 the prophet hears of an unjust law, and deliberate and openly rebels against the law that contradicted gods law. Jeremiah was arrested for treason for preaching gods word calling on Israel to surrender instead of going to war as the king wanted. Rahab disobeyed her king and was praised in Hebrews 11 and James 2.25 as did the midwives Hebrews 11.23. Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-dgo disobeyed government authority. In 1 Kings 21 Elijah is “the enemy” of the king Ahab. In 2 Kings 1 the king sends captains to Elijah to come down from the hill to speak with the king [a very easy reasonable request]. Elijah and the angel of the lord [Jesus] by killing the kings men twice for a total of 100 men. Peter disobeyed authority in Acts 5.29. And the men of god withstood king Uzziah

18 And they withstood King Uzziah, and said to him, “It is not for you, Uzziah, to burn incense to the Lord, but for the priests, the sons of Aaron, who are consecrated to burn incense. Get out of the sanctuary, for you have trespassed! You shall have no honor from the Lord God.”
-2 chronicles 26.18


When the state commands that which God forbids, or forbids that which god commands, we are to obey God rather than man.”
-Matthew J Trewhella The Doctrine of the Lesser Magistrates A Proper resistance to Tyranny and a Repudiation of Unlimited Obedience to Civil Government


God often sent prophets to Kings who stepped outside of gods law. Samuel was sent to confront Saul, Nathan and Gad to David, Isiah to Manasseh. The apostles were in and out of jail and killed for perching Jesus. In 2 Corinthians 11 32-33 Paul escaped government officials rather than submit. In Acts 16 Paul ans Silas refused orders and told the magistrates to see them face and admit their unjust imprisonment. Jesus resisted authorities when they often tried to kill him. Instead of submitting to Herod's massacre of the babies of Bethlehem, Joesph obeyed god and brought his family to Egypt. The early Christians fled instead of submitting to injustice Matt 10.23. Jesus was killed for treason and crucified “king of the Jews” as there was no king but Cesar. Paul preached Jesus as king and was accused of treason

and Jason has welcomed them into his house. They are all defying Caesar’s decrees, saying that there is another king, one called Jesus.
-Acts 17.7


And they began to accuse Him, saying, “We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is Christ, a King.”
-Luke 23.2


The Maccabees Revolt

Praise be to the LORD my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
-Psalm 144.1


Let the godly exult in glory;
let them sing for joy on their beds.
6 Let the high praises of God be in their throats
and two-edged swords in their hands,
7 to execute vengeance on the nations
and punishments on the peoples,
8 to bind their kings with chains
and their nobles with fetters of iron,
9 to execute on them the judgment written!
This is honor for all his godly ones.
Praise the Lord!
-Psalm 149 5-9


Jesus celebrated Hanukkah [festival of lights/ festival of dedication] in remembrance of the Maccabees refusal to confirm to the pagan government and society. The Maccabees are praised in the “hall of faith” in Hebrews 11 35-36 and v 38. In the books of Maccabees the Greek government over Israel sought to outlaw Judaism and assimilate Jews into the Greek culture so they would not be so rebellious. “Those who obey the Torah rather than the king were publicly put to death.” “Jerusalem was no longer free but became a slave.” The government authority wanted to recreate Jews in its own image as all centralized nations do 1 Macc 1.41. Those Jews that conformed with Greek culture and obeyed the government, were those who “hated their own nation.”

Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free,[a] and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
-Galatians 5.1


In this climate comes the celebrated Maccabees who fought a war of resistance against Greek rule who stayed separate as a people following the laws of Moses and would not conform to the governments demands. They fought battles and recaptured the temple. In 1 Macc 2 19-22 the Maccabees followed Moses laws and ordinances not the Kings. And in v 24 Mattathias driven by a righteous anger killed a assimilated Jew and one of the Kings officials and torn down government placed alters. In short

They rescued the law out of the hands of the Gentiles and kings, and they never let the sinner gain the upper hand.”
-1 Macc 2.48


These were the actions of those praised in Hebrews 11 and that Jesus found cause to celebrate. And according to the Talmud, God did a miracle to keep the Menorah lit for eight days for those brave men who loved God more than Government.

Be strong, and let us fight bravely for our people and the cities of our God. The Lord will do what is good in his sight.”
-2 Samuel 10.12
 
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Tolkien R.R.J

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The American Revolution and the The Black Robed Regiment

It is time for You to act, O Lord,
For they have regarded Your law as void.
-Psalm 119.126


The American revolution occurred in a religious atmosphere...historical truth that religion was a fundamental cause of the American Revolution.”
-Carl Bridenbaugh historian


The righteous rebellion began in the churches before the streets of Boston...in 1776 mixing religion and politics was a common as drinking smuggled tea. The colonial clergy created the religious climate that made it possible for an American revolution to take place.”
-James Adams author journalist


The Bible and minsters, more than anything else, inspired patriotism to the revolution. In the great book by James P Byrd Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013, the author looks at 17,000 biblical citations, and over 500 sources from the colonies to find what was the major motivator for patriots in the revolution, the Bible was hands down the top motivator. The clergy had the most impact on how Americans viewed the war.

The bible was accepted as the ultimate authority on economics and politics no less than on religion and morals.”
-Historian Christopher hill


As Byrd said “preachers turned their pulpits into weapons” igniting rebellion in the colonies to British tyrannical governmental policies. Pastors most often sited examples such as David, Deborah and Jael and the curse of Meroz in Judges 4-5, Moses and Exodus 14-15, Dut 32, 1 kings 12, 2 Sam 10.12, Jer 48.10 and many others as justification for the revolution. Further

Rehoboam justified rebellion against a king....if any government violated the precepts of god and liberty, the people were obliged to rebel.”
-James P Byrd
Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

God ordained government as the family and church, why than would he tell Christians to stay out of government? The pastors in America understood that tyranny at any level, left unchecked, would grow to tyranny against the church, and finally the gospel [we are seeing this in America today]. If the state is elevated above the family and church, it will in time wipe out those opposing god ordained institutions. That is why centralized government always attack the family and the church. It should not be allowed outside its biblical guidelines. If the state becomes the authority instead of the bible on what the state can do, than because there is no higher authority, than the government thinks itself god. There is nothing it cannot touch. It can take away any right from anyone. It thinks it must not just solve all the ills in the country, it must control all modes of behavior and set its own standards. It will regulate the lives to conform to its own image that is beneficial to itself, resulting in more power to itself. People became servants of the state rather than the government servants of its citizens. That is also why when government grows, people become less christian. When liberty grows, people become more christian. See

Government vs. God? People are less religious when government is bigger, research says

It was the clergy who made the revolution meaningful for most common people.”
-Gordon S Wood The Great Republic history of the American People


Colonist revered the bible...not only as a moral and religious guide but also as an authority on warfare.”
-James P Byrd
Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

This is in drastic contrast to the founders who's view was Governments are instituted among men to protect those unalienable rights that come from a higher authority than man, that is god. The founders constantly acknowledged that biblical higher power that they were accountable to. Man was not the ultimate authority in fact all men were created equal. This philosophy that reorganizes a creator, produces a limited government. Government is not the ultimate authority but is to protect all citizens god given liberty as described in the bible. It also believes that man should alter and abolish a government that is destructive to those rights of the people.

Pastors were the leaders of the revolution”
-David Barton The American Heritage Series


Not only were minsters responsible for this kind of political speech, but they were leaders in it.”
-James P Byrd
Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013

England sent her armies to compel submission, and the colonists appealed to haven.”
-John Thornton historian 1860


The black robed regiment was what the British during the American revolution called pastors who would lead their congregations out on the field of battle in their black robes. The British blamed the revolution on the pastors in America and treated them worse when captured compared to a regular soldier. They were blamed for leading the recruiting, and igniting the war. Churches were targeted and burned across America or converted into horse stables. When the British landed in NYC of the 19 churches 10 were burned and 9 were desecrated. King George said of the revolution “This is nothing more than a Presbyterian rebellion.” A British major said to colonial prisoners “It is your...damned religion of this country that ruined this country....damn your religion.”

3 when he sees the sword coming upon the land, if he blows the trumpet and warns the people, 4 then whoever hears the sound of the trumpet and does not take warning, if the sword comes and takes him away, his blood shall be on his own head. 5 He heard the sound of the trumpet, but did not take warning; his blood shall be upon himself. But he who takes warning will save his life. 6 But if the watchman sees the sword coming and does not blow the trumpet, and the people are not warned, and the sword comes and takes any person from among them, he is taken away in his iniquity; but his blood I will require at the watchman’s hand.’
-Ezekiel 33 3-6


The bible was read not just as a salvation only or a “spiritual” book, but as a practical book that was the model for all aspects of life, education, law, morality, politics, culture etc The pastors of early America saw themselves as shepherds of gods people and the watchmen of their flock in Ezekiel 33. When they saw an evil coming contrary to the bible, no mater from what sector, they sounded the alarm. Like Jesus and his disciples, they spoke against the evils of their day and applied proper biblical thinking, regardless if it was categorized as “political.” Think of the old testament period. Imagine Israel had a leader who preached the tolerance of homosexuality, God would respond by sending a prophet to speak Gods truth. Everything in the declaration of Independence such as all men created equal, the consent of the governed etc was already preached widely by pastors before 1776 for proper biblical government.

The written constitution was the child of the pulpit.”
-Alice Baldwin the new England clergy and the American revolution


Likewise what the British were doing such as taxation without representation and the stamp act were shown to be forms of tyranny in the bible. These were the topics of many sermons in America that incited people towards the revolution. The reverend John Wise who preached these sermons was credited with the ideas that formed the declaration of independence. When John Adams was asked who was most responsible for the revolution he named the Rev Samuel Cooper, the rev John Mayhew, the Rev George Witfeild, and the Rev Charles Chauncy.

The preachers of the revolution did not hesitate to attack the great political and social evils of their day.”
-Frank Moore historian 1862


Ministers led the fight for both religious and civil liberties.”
-Stephen McDowell The Bible America's Source of law and Liberty Providence Foundation 2016

In Paul Reverse famous ride he rode to the home of the rev Jonas Clark to warn the British were coming. The reason being Clark was the most important political figure in the area in Lexington and Sam Adams and John Hancock were at his house as they often were. Clark helped write the resolution for Massachusetts to separate from britian and also his state constitution. When word came that the British were coming Adams and Hancock asked Clark are your men ready? He answered “ I trained them for this very hour.” The alarm bells rang, the bells were from Clarks church where he was pastor to worn the people and to assembled outside the church. 150 people gathered at the church all men from his congregation and they go off to resits the British. Clark tells his men to let the British firs first because God would not bless an offensive war but you can defend yourself.

Other pastors like John Muhlenburg of Virginia helped raise units and eventually earned the rank of major general. While pasturing his church Muhlenburg gave his last sermon by reading from Ecclesiastes 3declaring there is a time for peace, but that time is know gone, know is a time for war. He took off his robes and underneath he was wearing his military uniform with his pistols, he asked his congregation, who will come with me? 300 of his congregation joined him. His brother Frederick was also a pastor and while pastor served as Americas first speaker of the house of representatives. Pastor James Calwdell would fight during the week and than give sermons on sundays fully armed with two pistols daring anyone to take them from him while giving the sermon. Once a battle happened outside his church and him and his congregation were running out of wadding so he ran into the church grabbed the hymnals by Isaac Watts, and yelled “give them watts.”

No class of men contributed more to carry forward the revolution and to achieve our independence than did the ministers.”
-B.F Morris historian 1864


Preachers were the staunchest defenders of the cause of America.”
-James P Byrd
Sacred Scripture Sacred war the bible and the American Revolution Oxford u Press 2013
 
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timothyu

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Haven't been any Kings set up by God's prophets in a few thousand years. The Church haughtily assumed the role of it's own accord but mimicking God is not from God. Today man choses whoever or puts themselves in power totally avoiding any governance by God.
 
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SkyWriting

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I dont think anyone is suggesting anarchy or rebellion. But rebellion to tyrants who oppose gods law and purpose of government.


Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God


Because many of your passages are out of context and dont deal with the actual issue at hand, could you be so kind as to post a few verses you think show Christians own unlimited submission to goverment.

.
 
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SkyWriting

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Because many of your passages are out of context and dont deal with the actual issue at hand, could you be so kind as to post a few verses you think show Christians own unlimited submission to goverment.

Since each passage links directly to the context, the complaint is baseless.
Every single passage includes no exclusions to the submission to government rule.
Each is stated clear without any amendments found.
There are no contradictory passages found.
There is one passage where Steven tells a panel of bishops and the High Priest to take a hike. (I approve!) Acts 5:28-30
The council of Bishops and the High Priest are below any other authority governing men's lives. They don't even rank worth mention.


People love this passage!
Matthew 28
And Jesus came and said to them,
“All authority in heaven and on
earth has been given to me.

People love to ignore this passage!
Romans 13
Therefore whoever resists the
authorities resists what God
has appointed, and those who
resist will incur judgment.

But, but, but what about____? And wha-wha-what about _____?

Sorry. I don't write scripture.
 
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The kings of the earth set themselves,And the rulers take counsel together, Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces And cast away Their cords from us.”
-Psalm 2 2-3

They set up kings without my consent;
they choose princes without my approval.
-Hosea 8.4



I'm guessing Pilate was not approved either.
What is intended for evil, is what spilled the blood of Jesus for our salvation.
 
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SkyWriting

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Yes submit to proper government, its purpose, is to punish those who do wrong. What if the government does the opposite? what did peter do? jesus? might
surprise you
Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God you.

Peter spoke out against religious authorities attempting
to have legal authority over the God given freedoms of the people.
He told a religious high priest and a panel of Bishops to get lost.

Jesus said the same to fundamentalists complaining over the Laws of Moses that he should not work on the Sabbath. Again, religious legalists told to get lost.

The prostitute to be stoned, again, religious legalism told to get lost.

Checking your link for "disobey authority" passages...Nuttin.
 
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Jamsie

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There are more examples I’m sure other posters will bring up. However, it is abundantly clear that when God’s Law is in tension with the wicked laws of mankind we are not to obey wickedness.

I would agree and would only add that there is a distinction to be made in terms of kings, rulers, or leaders in terms of God's efficacious and permissive will. Certainly God is sovereign however His will in this or any regard can be predictive or that He chooses to allow, always all things remain under His will.
 
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SkyWriting

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In 1 Macc 2 19-22 the Maccabees followed Moses laws and ordinances not the Kings.

Moses law has been set aside and replaced by a better covenant.
The New One, making the old obsolete. Failure to obey the law
makes Maccabees obsolete.
 
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Because many of your passages are out of context and don't deal with the actual issue at hand, could you be so kind as to post a few verses you think show Christians own unlimited submission to government.

I can do that:

Psalms 22
...dominion belongs to the Lord
and he rules over the nations.

Proverbs 8
By me kings reign, and rulers decree what is just;

Proverbs 21
The king's heart is a stream of water in the hand of the Lord;
he turns it wherever he will.

Romans 13
For there is no authority except from God,
and those that exist have been instituted by God.
 
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