Nehemiah built a big beautiful wall!

[redleghunter]

It is true he led the effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

Nehemiah 6: NASB
1Now when it was reported to Sanballat, Tobiah, to Geshem the Arab and to the rest of our enemies that I had rebuilt the wall, and that no breach remained in it, although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates, 2then Sanballat and Geshem sent a message to me, saying, “Come, let us meet together at Chephirim in the plain of Ono.” But they were planning to harm me. 3So I sent messengers to them, saying, “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?” 4They sent messages to me four times in this manner, and I answered them in the same way. 5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports. 7“You have also appointed prophets to proclaim in Jerusalem concerning you, ‘A king is in Judah!’ And now it will be reported to the king according to these reports. So come now, let us take counsel together.” 8Then I sent a message to him saying, “Such things as you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind.” 9For all of them were trying to frighten us, thinking, “They will become discouraged with the work and it will not be done.” But now, O God, strengthen my hands.

10When I entered the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah, son of Mehetabel, who was confined at home, he said, “Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us close the doors of the temple, for they are coming to kill you, and they are coming to kill you at night.” 11But I said, “Should a man like me flee? And could one such as I go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.” 12Then I perceived that surely God had not sent him, but he uttered his prophecy against me because Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. 13He was hired for this reason, that I might become frightened and act accordingly and sin, so that they might have an evil report in order that they could reproach me. 14Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these works of theirs, and also Noadiah the prophetess and the rest of the prophets who were trying to frighten me.



The Wall Is Finished

15So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it,they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 17Also in those days many letters went from the nobles of Judah to Tobiah, and Tobiah’s letters came to them. 18For many in Judah were bound by oath to him because he was the son-in-law of Shecaniah the son of Arah, and his son Jehohanan had married the daughter of Meshullam the son of Berechiah.19Moreover, they were speaking about his good deeds in my presence and reported my words to him. Then Tobiah sent letters to frighten me.

 

[Varangian Christian]

Nehemiah did a good job!

 

[tulc]

It is true he led thr effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall? (snip)

Not at all. I suspect Jerusalem really could use a wall around it then. You know, to keep all those Honduran refugees from illegally voting for Democrats.
tulc(good point redleghunter)

 

[redleghunter]

Not at all. I suspect Jerusalem really could use a wall around it then. You know, to keep all those Honduran refugees from illegally voting for Democrats.
tulc(good point redleghunter)

Read the book. There were neighbors who believed they should have a stake in Jerusalem.

 

[tulc]

Read the book. There were neighbors who believed they should have a stake in Jerusalem.

so they did rebuild the wall to keep Honduran refugees fleeing persecution from invading and voting for a Democrat?
tulc(has read Nehemiah several times and honestly doesn't remember that in there)

 

[Gigimo]

It is true he led thr effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

Nehemiah 6: NASB
1Now when it was reported to Sanballat, Tobiah, to Geshem the Arab and to the rest of our enemies that I had rebuilt the wall, and that no breach remained in it, although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates, 2then Sanballat and Geshem sent a message to me, saying, “Come, let us meet together at Chephirim in the plain of Ono.” But they were planning to harm me. 3So I sent messengers to them, saying, “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?” 4They sent messages to me four times in this manner, and I answered them in the same way. 5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports. 7“You have also appointed prophets to proclaim in Jerusalem concerning you, ‘A king is in Judah!’ And now it will be reported to the king according to these reports. So come now, let us take counsel together.” 8Then I sent a message to him saying, “Such things as you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind.” 9For all of them were trying to frighten us, thinking, “They will become discouraged with the work and it will not be done.” But now, O God, strengthen my hands.

10When I entered the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah, son of Mehetabel, who was confined at home, he said, “Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us close the doors of the temple, for they are coming to kill you, and they are coming to kill you at night.” 11But I said, “Should a man like me flee? And could one such as I go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.” 12Then I perceived that surely God had not sent him, but he uttered his prophecy against me because Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. 13He was hired for this reason, that I might become frightened and act accordingly and sin, so that they might have an evil report in order that they could reproach me. 14Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these works of theirs, and also Noadiah the prophetess and the rest of the prophets who were trying to frighten me.



The Wall Is Finished

15So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it,they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 17Also in those days many letters went from the nobles of Judah to Tobiah, and Tobiah’s letters came to them. 18For many in Judah were bound by oath to him because he was the son-in-law of Shecaniah the son of Arah, and his son Jehohanan had married the daughter of Meshullam the son of Berechiah.19Moreover, they were speaking about his good deeds in my presence and reported my words to him. Then Tobiah sent letters to frighten me.

Border walls/fences have become very popular in the last 30 years, when the Berlin Wall was torn down there were 15 now there are about 70 according to an article I read a couple years ago.

 

[mark kennedy]

Building walls is as old as civilization itself, even private homes would have a wall around the garden.

The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills. My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice. (Song of Songs 2:8-9)
​

In that day a marriage actually lasted for days, just over a week. The two who were betrothed had a get together at the start of the marriage rites, these two had their first celebration in Jerusalem at the kings table. The next morning the groom comes skipping and leaping along the foothills where his bride is having breakfast with her brothers in the family garden, probably on a patio. He speaks to her through the lattice of the doorway, they get kind of mushy to say the least, the imagery of the coming of spring is unmistakable. The family garden was untaxed, no one was allowed to glean there the way they were commercial crops. That wall around the family garden was the basis for Thomas Jefferson's 'wall of separation' in his famous letter to the Danbury Baptists. It became a symbol of freedom of religion among Protestants and the first amendment concept of leaving people's religion untouched by the government. It's a lovely image so grossly misunderstood in legal arguments regarding separation of church and state.

The walls of Zerubbabel, from the line of David as a matter of fact, was the 'day of small beginnings'. They were mocked, the wall incomplete, no one among their contemporaries believed Israel would again build it's defenses:

Those who have made fun of this day of small beginnings will celebrate when they see Zerubbabel holding this important stone. Those seven lamps represent my eyes--the eyes of the LORD--and they see everything on this earth. (Zech. 4:10)
​

This speaks to the stones of the wall, a wall that would not be completed until the time of Nehemiah. The threats from the surrounding nations were nearly constant, Samaria in particular despised the idea :

Before his associates and the army of Samaria, saying, "What are these feeble Jews doing? Can they restore the wall by themselves? Will they offer sacrifices? Will they complete it in a day? Can they bring these burnt stones back to life from the mounds of rubble?" (Nehemiah 4:2)
​

In fulfillment of prophecy, they did it. The walls and the Temple complete, the annulment of the illegal marriages of the Israelites complete, Ezra found a copy of the Law and read it to the people. Going through the east gate that lead into the Kidron valley, that lead up to the mount of olives, they built a scaffold, a stage from which Ezra would read the Law to the people during the Holy Convocation when all of Israel came to Jerusalem along with their tithes. There were 40,000 in attendance at the same site where Jesus would 500 years later deliver the Sermon on the Mount. The smell of incense and fresh grain would have filled the air, the city swelled in it's population, the hills scattered with tents for the feast of tabernacles, during such a time both Ezra and Jesus would speak to the children of Israel.

I remember Pope Francis said during his visit to the United States, we should build bridges not walls. I found that almost comical, doesn't the Vatican have a huge wall around it? I don't like everything about the Trump administration, I certainly don't approve of his tactics, but that wall on the southern boarder isn't one of the things I oppose.

Perhaps that was your point Red, thought I would throw in an historical perspective to try to move the conversation along.

Grace and peace,
Mark

 

[redleghunter]

so they did rebuild the wall to keep Honduran refugees fleeing persecution from invading and voting for a Democrat?
tulc(has read Nehemiah several times and honestly doesn't remember that in there)

This is not the political threads tulc. This is the theology thread so please keep comments to the OP. Has nothing to do with Hondurans.

 

[paul1149]

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

That we even need to ask this question shows how absurd our public discourse has become. OT cities always had walls. Not everyone on the outside is well-intentioned. Those walls had gates that could open and close at will. If it was all wall, it would ultimately be self-defeating, but the gates allowed for travel and commerce and for admitting outsiders that needed protection. But those gates needed to be able to close as well, as necessity dictated.

Houses have walls. Properties have walls and fences. Prisons have walls. The body has skin. Its cells an organs have walls. Lack of psychological boundaries makes for profound pathology. Boundaries are a fundamental part of any entity; without them there is no entity. Our Lord tells us in the highest moral teaching of all time to guard against swine and dogs.

 

[redleghunter]

That we even need to ask this question shows how absurd our public discourse has become. OT cities always had walls. Not everyone on the outside is well-intentioned. Those walls had gates that could open and close at will. If it was all wall, it would ultimately be self-defeating, but the gates allowed for travel and commerce and for admitting outsiders that needed protection. But those gates needed to be able to close as well, as necessity dictated.

Houses have walls. Properties have walls and fences. Prisons have walls. The body has skin. Its cells an organs have walls. Lack of psychological boundaries makes for profound pathology. Boundaries are a fundamental part of any entity; without them there is no entity. Our Lord tells us in the highest moral teaching of all time to guard against swine and dogs.

And how the public discourse of secular policians are using theological terms such as “immoral” to describe inanimate objects.

So had to go back to the Scriptures to see if walls are indeed immoral and bigoted. Looks like Nehemiah’s wall was far from it. It was necessary. And it was a big wall too.

 

[eleos1954]

It is true he led thr effort and he did so to protect the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He also kept out neighboring nations from influencing the project. And he and the inhabitants of Jerusalem did it in 52 days.

Was it immoral and bigoted to build this wall?

Nehemiah 6: NASB
1Now when it was reported to Sanballat, Tobiah, to Geshem the Arab and to the rest of our enemies that I had rebuilt the wall, and that no breach remained in it, although at that time I had not set up the doors in the gates, 2then Sanballat and Geshem sent a message to me, saying, “Come, let us meet together at Chephirim in the plain of Ono.” But they were planning to harm me. 3So I sent messengers to them, saying, “I am doing a great work and I cannot come down. Why should the work stop while I leave it and come down to you?” 4They sent messages to me four times in this manner, and I answered them in the same way. 5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports. 7“You have also appointed prophets to proclaim in Jerusalem concerning you, ‘A king is in Judah!’ And now it will be reported to the king according to these reports. So come now, let us take counsel together.” 8Then I sent a message to him saying, “Such things as you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind.” 9For all of them were trying to frighten us, thinking, “They will become discouraged with the work and it will not be done.” But now, O God, strengthen my hands.

10When I entered the house of Shemaiah the son of Delaiah, son of Mehetabel, who was confined at home, he said, “Let us meet together in the house of God, within the temple, and let us close the doors of the temple, for they are coming to kill you, and they are coming to kill you at night.” 11But I said, “Should a man like me flee? And could one such as I go into the temple to save his life? I will not go in.” 12Then I perceived that surely God had not sent him, but he uttered his prophecy against me because Tobiah and Sanballat had hired him. 13He was hired for this reason, that I might become frightened and act accordingly and sin, so that they might have an evil report in order that they could reproach me. 14Remember, O my God, Tobiah and Sanballat according to these works of theirs, and also Noadiah the prophetess and the rest of the prophets who were trying to frighten me.



The Wall Is Finished

15So the wall was completed on the twenty-fifth of the month Elul, in fifty-two days. 16When all our enemies heard of it, and all the nations surrounding us saw it,they lost their confidence; for they recognized that this work had been accomplished with the help of our God. 17Also in those days many letters went from the nobles of Judah to Tobiah, and Tobiah’s letters came to them. 18For many in Judah were bound by oath to him because he was the son-in-law of Shecaniah the son of Arah, and his son Jehohanan had married the daughter of Meshullam the son of Berechiah.19Moreover, they were speaking about his good deeds in my presence and reported my words to him. Then Tobiah sent letters to frighten me.

Revelation 21:12

It had a great and high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels; and names were written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel.

;o)

 

[tulc]

This is not the political threads tulc. This is the theology thread so please keep comments to the OP. Has nothing to do with Hondurans.

Well..it's not in a political forum, I'll grant you that. I am curious about what portion of the book of Nehemiah got you wondering if a wall around a city was moral or not? Because if there was specific Scripture in it that got you thinking about that maybe people could look at that section and have a discussion about it?
tulc(is always curious about Scriptures and how people react to them)

 

[redleghunter]

Well..it's not in a political forum, I'll grant you that. I am curious about what portion of the book of Nehemiah got you wondering if a wall around a city was moral or not? Because if there was specific Scripture in it that got you thinking about that maybe people could look at that section and have a discussion about it?
tulc(is always curious about Scriptures and how people react to them)

Look at the chapter provided in the OP. It shows concerns about surrounding nations.

 

[redleghunter]

Because if there was specific Scripture in it that got you thinking about that maybe people could look at that section and have a discussion about it?

This portion is interesting as well:

5Then Sanballat sent his servant to me in the same manner a fifth time with an open letter in his hand. 6In it was written, “It is reported among the nations, and Gashmu says, that you and the Jews are planning to rebel; therefore you are rebuilding the wall. And you are to be their king, according to these reports.

Seems Nehemiah was fighting against false narratives about his intentions.

 

[Der Alte]

This portion is interesting as well:
Nehemiah 6:5-7
Seems Nehemiah was fighting against false narratives about his intentions.

Hmmm! That sounds somehow familiar.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

Walls, these days, are nothing but partitions. The one that Nehemiah built was made for killing people who tried to cross it. They had gates with several sets of doors, so that if the illegal immigrants got past one, they could be killed while trying to get past the next one. A portcullis could be dropped to keep them in that area until the killing was finished. The immigrants could expect to be shot, or have hot oil and stones dropped on them.

Now, if we tried building a wall like that, we might have a really interesting debate on the subject. All this talk of a giant concrete privacy screen is boring.

 

[redleghunter]

Walls, these days, are nothing but partitions. The one that Nehemiah built was made for killing people who tried to cross it.

I think the second or third post on this thread another poster provided an image of Israel’s border wall.

 

[redleghunter]

Hmmm! That sounds somehow familiar.

Sanballat was sure doing a job on Nehemiah’s public polling numbers.

 

[redleghunter]

Walls, these days, are nothing but partitions. The one that Nehemiah built was made for killing people who tried to cross it. They had gates with several sets of doors, so that if the illegal immigrants got past one, they could be killed while trying to get past the next one. A portcullis could be dropped to keep them in that area until the killing was finished. The immigrants could expect to be shot, or have hot oil and stones dropped on them.

Now, if we tried building a wall like that, we might have a really interesting debate on the subject. All this talk of a giant concrete privacy screen is boring.

You mean a forcefield wall like Asgard had?

 

[redleghunter]

Nehemiah did a good job!

That one just might survive a zobie apocalypse. Wow.