The United Methodist Schism

tulipbee

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Presbyterian churches are connectional. Representatives of the Presbytery ordain pastors. Those representatives may be elders or pastors. Basically the Presbytery acts like a corporate bishop. When they send a commission to ordain someone it's our equivalent of a bishop ordaining them.
I still haven't found any info on equivalent of a bishop but I found they don't want any connection at all:
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Denominations that reject apostolic succession
Some Nonconformist Protestants, particularly those in the Calvinist tradition, deny the doctrine of apostolic succession, believing that it is neither taught in Scripture nor necessary for Christian teaching, life, and practice. Accordingly, these Protestants strip the notion of apostolic succession from the definition of "apostolic" or "apostolicity." For them, to be apostolic is simply to be in submission to the teachings of the original twelve apostles as recorded in Scripture.[164] This doctrinal stance reflects the Protestant view of authority, embodied in the doctrine known as Sola Scriptura. Apostolic succession - Wikipedia
 
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1stcenturylady

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I still haven't found any info on equivalent of a bishop but I found they don't want any connection at all:
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Denominations that reject apostolic succession
Some Nonconformist Protestants, particularly those in the Calvinist tradition, deny the doctrine of apostolic succession, believing that it is neither taught in Scripture nor necessary for Christian teaching, life, and practice. Accordingly, these Protestants strip the notion of apostolic succession from the definition of "apostolic" or "apostolicity." For them, to be apostolic is simply to be in submission to the teachings of the original twelve apostles as recorded in Scripture.[164] This doctrinal stance reflects the Protestant view of authority, embodied in the doctrine known as Sola Scriptura. Apostolic succession - Wikipedia

What I find interesting is the original church had relatives of Jesus as the head of the church, i.e., brothers, cousins, uncles. They were called the desposyni. This not to be confused with the aberrant teaching of Mary Magdalene bearing children to Jesus, her husband.
 
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circuitrider

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I still haven't found any info on equivalent of a bishop but I found they don't want any connection at all:

Presbyterians are also a connectional church. They are just not connected through an Episcopal system for their connection but through churches connected by Presbyteries.

United Methodists do not believe the Apostolic succession is necessary for the passing on of the gospel.
 
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tulipbee

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Presbyterians are also a connectional church. They are just not connected through an Episcopal system for their connection but through churches connected by Presbyteries.

United Methodists do not believe the Apostolic succession is necessary for the passing on of the gospel.
then why did Wesley go through the trouble of apostolic secession?
 
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tulipbee

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What I find interesting is the original church had relatives of Jesus as the head of the church, i.e., brothers, cousins, uncles. They were called the desposyni. This not to be confused with the aberrant teaching of Mary Magdalene bearing children to Jesus, her husband.
sounds like to tudor movie where the king want his kids to be the head of the church
 
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circuitrider

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then why did Wesley go through the trouble of apostolic secession?

According to best scholarship he didn't. Wesley believe that "Bishop" was not an additional ordained officer to priest/elder/presbyter. Wesley preferred the term "elder" over "priest" and believe that Bishop's are simply elders with a supervision role.

There have been rumors of Wesley being ordained a Bishop by someone outside the Anglican Church but most scholars do not believe it happened and that it would have contradicted his stated theology.
 
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hedrick

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I thought readers might find this interesting: The Best Scenario for the Korean Church. It's from Methodist Insight, which is certainly not an unbiased source, but the author is president of the National Association of Korean American United Methodist Pastors Serving Cross Racial Appointment.

I've been skeptical about a General Conference accepting any of the proposals. His is the first suggestion that I think has a reasonable chance of passing. He proposes the Traditional Plan without enforcement. Basically he considers it critical for the Korean churches that the discipline doesn't change, but he sees some advantages -- even for his churches -- in not enforcing it. Thus he advocates allowing "civil disobedience." He estimates that if enforcement isn't done, only the most committed liberal and conservatives will leave. This is probably the best possible outcome from an organizational perspective.

I wonder, however, whether the Judicial Council would consider this constitutional. How can you have a requirement that no one is allowed to enforce?
 
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Rawtheran

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I thought readers might find this interesting: The Best Scenario for the Korean Church. It's from Methodist Insight, which is certainly not an unbiased source, but the author is president of the National Association of Korean American United Methodist Pastors Serving Cross Racial Appointment.

I've been skeptical about a General Conference accepting any of the proposals. His is the first suggestion that I think has a reasonable chance of passing. He proposes the Traditional Plan without enforcement. Basically he considers it critical for the Korean churches that the discipline doesn't change, but he sees some advantages -- even for his churches -- in not enforcing it. Thus he advocates allowing "civil disobedience." He estimates that if enforcement isn't done, only the most committed liberal and conservatives will leave. This is probably the best possible outcome from an organizational perspective.

I wonder, however, whether the Judicial Council would consider this constitutional. How can you have a requirement that no one is allowed to enforce?
I... I'm not even going to bother giving my opinion on how stupid this is........
 
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food4thought

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The UMC I'm a member of is holding a weekly study on an interesting book called United Methodists Divided: Understanding Our Differences over Homosexuality. It is an attempt to, without bias, present the two sides of the issue in the context of the Wesleyan quadrilateral. It has allowed me to better see the position of the progressive believer, while at the same time adequately expressing the conservative view. It's a good read for anyone wanting to see both viewpoints fairly represented.
 
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circuitrider

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I wonder, however, whether the Judicial Council would consider this constitutional. How can you have a requirement that no one is allowed to enforce?

The problem is that the law is in the part of the Discipline that are listed as chargeable offenses. So, that statement would have to be removed from that part of the Discipline and relocated. Otherwise I don't see how you can enforce one set of offense in the paragraph and not another.

Also, even if not enforced, the fact that we maintain an anti-LGBTQ position will continue to harm LGBTQ people and also send a signal to people whom we'd hope would join the UMC that we really still exclude people. I've lost straight young adults from joining my own congregation when they found out the UMC's policy on same sex marriage because they all have friends or relatives that are LGBTQ.

And, it creates an atmosphere of lawlessness that progressives don't want either. We don't want unfair rules that we have permission to ignore, we want fair rules that we can honestly support.
 
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circuitrider

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By the way, a big problem with how the incompatibility clause was inserted in the Discipline is that it is NOT in the doctrinal statements of the denomination anywhere. Not enough United Methodists, even in the 70s, agreed with the position enough to pass the super majority hurdles to get the statement enshrined in our doctrine. Instead it was put in section on clergy behavior/actions prohibiting the action of performing a same sex marriage and declaring it incompatible with Christian teaching without ever adopting a supporting doctrinal statement to that effect.

And the rule contradicts other parts of the Discipline that require me to minister equally to all the members of my church. Except, in this instance, I can't.
 
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Rawtheran

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Wow, that's pretty rude.
Not trying to be rude, just stating a fact about how its sad that lay and clergy members who swore an oath in front of a congregation and an annual conference to uphold the traditions of the UMC are now asking for permission to go ahead and just disregard the rules as they see fit. As a Christian "saved" by Jesus can I go out and commit adultery on my future wife by partying and having all the sex I want because I want to commit "civil disobedience" against the church? By their logic I can and should.
 
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circuitrider

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Not trying to be rude, just stating a fact about how its sad that lay and clergy members who swore an oath in front of a congregation and an annual conference to uphold the traditions of the UMC are now asking for permission to go ahead and just disregard the rules as they see fit. As a Christian "saved" by Jesus can I go out and commit adultery on my future wife by partying and having all the sex I want because I want to commit "civil disobedience" against the church? By their logic I can and should.

First, you need to be aware that this is one person's suggestion. Most clergy members want the rules changed. The Discipline changes every four years when the General Conference votes changes. It was not against the rules to perform same sex marriages until 1972. It passed in a simple majority vote and no official change was made to our doctrinal statements themselves.

Second, the Discipline in many people's minds is in contradiction with itself. The baptismal vows say that we are to oppose evil, injustice and oppression. So many United Methodists believe that the vows we took in baptism, which even precedes our ordination vows, would require us to oppose the oppression of LGBTQ persons who are second class citizens in the UMC.

So while some clergy are calling for civil disobedience and many clergy are calling for the rules to change (as well as many lay people) we have what amounts to a very serious disagreement that can't just be solved by rules enforcement.

In a volunteer organization, like the church, when almost 1/2 of the membership disagrees with a policy if you just run over those people by time and time again just out voting them and not addressing their concerns, you'll win the vote and lose the church. If only 10% or even 20% of Methodists wanted same sex marriage in the church you could probably ignore the issue. But the figure is closer to somewhere between 40% to 45+% depending on estimates. No organization can do well ignoring the concerns of nearly half its membership. And by all accounts our younger adults in larger and larger percentages want this change. If we don't make the change down the road we may just cease to exist.

IMO, this is akin to the time in the New Testament when the Church had to decide if we welcomed the Gentiles or not. If the decision had been to not welcome the Gentiles the Church today probably would not exist. If we basically spread a message that God loves everyone but on the other hand don't treat everyone with equal love, respect and dignity people will see the failure of our message and in the long term, it will kill our denomination. We will go the way of the Amish who still exist but are now a curiosity rather than a growing movement.
 
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hedrick

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I should note that I have no standing to advocate changes in the UMC. My posting was more about politics. I believe the quoted author represents a significant position. Many third-world representative believe they can't survive having the Discipline allow gay marriage, but at least this one could live with it happening anyway in the US. I don't know how common this is.

(Personally, I still think the traditional plan will pass, the liberal areas will be forced out, and the conservative areas will leave anyway. Basically I think the UMC is toast.)
 
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circuitrider

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I should note that I have no standing to advocate changes in the UMC. My posting was more about politics. I believe the quoted author represents a significant position. Many third-world representative believe they can't survive having the Discipline allow gay marriage, but at least this one could live with it happening anyway in the US. I don't know how common this is.

(Personally, I still think the traditional plan will pass, the liberal areas will be forced out, and the conservative areas will leave anyway. Basically I think the UMC is toast.)

I see the solution is that the there is work being done on regionalized Books of Discipline and a Global Book of Discipline. So that issues of marriage etc. could be in the regionalized Disciplines.

I personally don't think that the traditional plan will pass because I see prominent conservatives abandoning it for the contextual plan where we divide up into sub-denominations. I don't think some of the prominent people pushing the contextual plan would be doing so if they thought the Traditional plan was going to pass intact.

Also, some of the enforcement was removed from the plan from the Judicial Council as unconstitutional because it basically deemed that views on sexuality were being held to a higher standard than other doctrines and there is no warrant for that in the Discipline.

I think either some modification of the One Church plan will pass or there is a very real possibility nothing will pass. And there is a possibility part of the work gets done and the rest is shunted off to our regularly schedule General Conference in 2020.

No matter what happens I see some conservatives and some progressives leaving to their own eventual detriment. We really don't need more splinters in the Wesleyan Movement. Conservatives will find themselves dealing with homosexuality all over again within 20 years (as straight parents will continue to have gay kids) and a small splinter progressive group won't have strength to do all that much.

Those in the middle, the majority, don't actually want a split. That doesn't mean it won't happen. But it isn't what most people in the pew want.
 
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Sadly, many United Methodists leaders have chosen to teach a doctrine of sexual permissiveness. Some react by suggesting we start a new church. Where would the money come from to do that? I think the best thing we can do is hold our ground – try to get the church back on track.
 
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I was raised Catholic, and a great appeal of Protestantism for me was the adherence to scriptures to discern God’s will. The fact that I can search out answers myself rather than consulting a priest was very appealing.
Now I am a member of a Methodist church in which the pastor and staff are in the pro-LGBT camp. Our pastor says that “signs and miracles” demonstrate that it is God’s will that we accept this position. I am super conflicted, as I would like nothing better than to accept this idea since I have so many gay family and friends. On the other hand, I cannot find agreement in the scriptures. For those of you who believe in gay church marriages etc., where do you find God’s approval in the scriptures?
 
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Maybe if we as United Methodists were focused on Jesus Christ and making more disciples and saving souls, rather than being hyper-focused on one single social principle (that both sides of the debate can find scriptural support for), we wouldn't even be considering a split.

As it is, I have no intention of going anywhere regardless of the decision. It's ridiculous to even consider a split over something that isn't core theology, such as a disagreement over the divinity of Jesus or predestination or Trinity.

Perhaps we should be more attentive to all the wonderful things United Methodists are doing to serve God all over the world, and how much darker this world would be if all of those things were to go away...all because of a disagreement over a single social principle that really matters very little in the larger scheme of things.
 
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