Why can't the Orthodox be considered the One True Church?

[Gnarwhal]

God bless you, you have a deep passion for the Lord and His Scripture

We should not debate this topic here, you are free to ask questions but not debate Catholic doctrine in the Catholic forum

I would recommend General Theology or Denomination Specific Theology if you want to debate

I don't think I'll ever be able to emulate your charity. I read that crap and I just want to start Deus Vulting.

 

[chevyontheriver]

not just anti-popes, but just popes who shouldn't have been popes due to bad wisdom or maybe even some immoral acts like anti-semitism. I'm just trying to find some rationality that may have caused the EO's to reject papal authority because I do see the rational in your post about having to have 1 leader.

We don't have more than 1 president either, nor more than 1 king in the land so you explained very well.

But, maybe Pope Victor (and a few others) made some mistakes that caused the EO to reject Papal authority as infallible. Even Catholic theologians have critiqued on Victor's wisdom?

The reason the Orthodox rejected papal authority has more to do with the politics of the late Roman Empire than anything else. Constantinople had become the 'New Rome' and the old Rome had become a bit of a backwater town. We see the same thing today where Istanbul is a bit of a backwater and Moscow has become much more prominent.

We can wonder if Victor was prudent or not, and wonder if the Roman side pushed the folks in Constantinople more than they should have. But 'New Rome' was politically ascendant and I think that was a huge driver of the split.

 

[Cis.jd]

The reason the Orthodox rejected papal authority has more to do with the politics of the late Roman Empire than anything else. Constantinople had become the 'New Rome' and the old Rome had become a bit of a backwater town. We see the same thing today where Istanbul is a bit of a backwater and Moscow has become much more prominent.

We can wonder if Victor was prudent or not, and wonder if the Roman side pushed the folks in Constantinople more than they should have. But 'New Rome' was politically ascendant and I think that was a huge driver of the split.

I agree.. at the end, how does this get fixed? Do you think we are the true church by ourselves or do we need the unity if the true church was both of us?

 

[Gnarwhal]

I agree.. at the end, how does this get fixed? Do you think we are the true church by ourselves or do we need the unity if the true church was both of us?

This is just my opinion, but I believe we are one and whole already. "Reunification" seems redundant at best when we already have the Eastern Catholic Churches under the same umbrella. I think it's a fruitless endeavor to try to build bridges with the Orthodox anyway, they don't seem to come to the table in good faith if and when reunification comes up.

In my experience, the Orthodox are way more hostile towards Catholics than the other way around. I looked at Orthodoxy before Catholicism, and the clergy and laity at the OCA mission I was going to were so, so, SO uncharitable in their language about Catholics. Whereas the Catholics, when I eventually checked them out, weren't even concerned about the Orthodox...they were just happy to see me, happy to have me join them in Mass. Celebrating my curiosity. The Orthodox went out of their way to disparage Catholicism and convince me to stay away from Catholics (schismatics, as they put it).

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree.. at the end, how does this get fixed? Do you think we are the true church by ourselves or do we need the unity if the true church was both of us?

I like the analogy (just an analogy) of the two lungs of the Church, east and west. But then I have heard from some Orthodox who entirely reject that analogy. They are fine with one lung. We are the place where the Church subsists. We are a valid Church where the Church subsists. But they are valid Churches as well. They DO need us. We DO need them. But we are valid Churches even as we are. Even if they continue to reject us we are true and valid. But we have a lousy witness as still divided.

How do we fix it? It's impossible. The Orthodox need to want to fix it and only some of them do. Others call us heretics and want nothing to do with us. It will not be fixed in my lifetime. It will only ever be fixed by a miracle. And we should pray for that miracle.

 

[chevyontheriver]

This is just my opinion, but I believe we are one and whole already. "Reunification" seems redundant at best when we already have the Eastern Catholic Churches under the same umbrella. I think it's a fruitless endeavor to try to build bridges with the Orthodox anyway, they don't seem to come to the table in good faith if and when reunification comes up.

In my experience, the Orthodox are way more hostile towards Catholics than the other way around. I looked at Orthodoxy before Catholicism, and the clergy and laity at the OCA mission I was going to were so, so, SO uncharitable in their language about Catholics. Whereas the Catholics, when I eventually checked them out, weren't even concerned about the Orthodox...they were just happy to see me, happy to have me join them in Mass. Celebrating my curiosity. The Orthodox went out of their way to disparage Catholicism and convince me to stay away from Catholics (schismatics, as they put it).

It is not a reciprocal relationship at all. I would be gung ho for Orthodoxy if it wasn't for the animosity of so many Orthodox. I've read so much of the Greek Fathers I feel I belong in their milieu but the contemporary Orthodox are sadly a different story.

 

[Cis.jd]

This is just my opinion, but I believe we are one and whole already. "Reunification" seems redundant at best when we already have the Eastern Catholic Churches under the same umbrella. I think it's a fruitless endeavor to try to build bridges with the Orthodox anyway, they don't seem to come to the table in good faith if and when reunification comes up.

In my experience, the Orthodox are way more hostile towards Catholics than the other way around. I looked at Orthodoxy before Catholicism, and the clergy and laity at the OCA mission I was going to were so, so, SO uncharitable in their language about Catholics. Whereas the Catholics, when I eventually checked them out, weren't even concerned about the Orthodox...they were just happy to see me, happy to have me join them in Mass. Celebrating my curiosity. The Orthodox went out of their way to disparage Catholicism and convince me to stay away from Catholics (schismatics, as they put it).

I agree. One of the main reasons why i couldn't convert to EO was due to how they were completely secluded in themselves. Sure, we've had catholics who were so self-absorbed but generally we've been more open to others. I mean the pope did recommend others to listen to Billy Graham and we were the ones who always made the first move in uniting each other. Another thing about the EO was that they were too race exclusive. One church was for Russians, one was for only greek, etc etc.. while Catholic churches was always a mixed diversity. That is why it has evangelized more.

However, here and in other christian forums they are more like our best allies in debates.

 

[chevyontheriver]

I agree. One of the main reasons why i couldn't convert to EO was due to how they were completely secluded in themselves. Sure, we've had catholics who were so self-absorbed but generally we've been more open to others. I mean the pope did recommend others to listen to Billy Graham and we were the ones who always made the first move in uniting each other. Another thing about the EO was that they were too race exclusive. One church was for Russians, one was for only greek, etc etc.. while Catholic churches was always a mixed diversity. That is why it has evangelized more.

However, here and in other christian forums they are more like our best allies in debates.

About Billy Graham, he was going to Poland and would have met a particular cardinal there who invited him to go to Poland except that that cardinal was being elected pope. I don't think they ever met, but they had great respect for each other.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I agree. One of the main reasons why i couldn't convert to EO was due to how they were completely secluded in themselves. Sure, we've had catholics who were so self-absorbed but generally we've been more open to others. I mean the pope did recommend others to listen to Billy Graham and we were the ones who always made the first move in uniting each other. Another thing about the EO was that they were too race exclusive. One church was for Russians, one was for only greek, etc etc.. while Catholic churches was always a mixed diversity. That is why it has evangelized more.

Yes, I've heard accounts of how one ethnic church dislikes a different ethnic church. They've sequestered themselves as a culture and community, and with the "come and see" mantra they preach to prospective converts, it leaves me with a sense of elitism bordering on bigotry.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Orthodoxy is awesome. And there are many good, saintly, holy, wise, mortified, near-to-God Orthodox Christians. Surely.

But the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. She is One. She has many rites, but One Head on Earth, and She invites all Christians, Eastern and Western, Palamite and Thomist, to come Home. She has room for everyone.

 

[anna ~ grace]

I do believe that all Christians who sincerely love and obey Christ, and who have truly made every effort to mortify the flesh, co-operate with the Will of God, love as Christ loved, and become one with Him in prayer and humility will be called Home by Christ in the end. I believe and hope that. In Heaven, there will be no heresy, schism, error, or fracture. Just One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Hello ml,
So you fully reject Jesus decision to put St. Peter over all His Church?

Matthew 16:13 Peter the Rock.
Jesus replied, "Blest are you, Simon son of John! No mere man has revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. I for my part declare to you, you are 'Rock', and on this rock I will build my church, and the jaws of death shall not prevail against it. I will entrust to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you declare bound on earth shall be bound in heaven; whatever you declare loosed on earth shall be loosed in heaven."​

Genuine question. Did Peter establish the church of Ephesus? Philipi? Colossus? Thessalonica?

 

[Cis.jd]

Yes, I've heard accounts of how one ethnic church dislikes a different ethnic church. They've sequestered themselves as a culture and community, and with the "come and see" mantra they preach to prospective converts, it leaves me with a sense of elitism bordering on bigotry.

I had the same issue. I'm asian/hispanic looking so I was getting stares from people including the priest as if "what are you doing here?"... nearly uncomfortable. Although the mass was nearly the same in it's layout.

 

[Cis.jd]

Regardless of these negs. The Orthodox have always shown a much more intelligent understanding of scripture and theological reasoning here in this board... along/next to RCC. Like, how many times are we both on the same side in the theology boards?

 

[Davidnic]

MOD HAT

Please remember what sub-forum you are in while posting and follow the safe haven rules. This thread has undergone a clean. Posts that were violations were removed as were responses.

MOD HAT

 

[chevyontheriver]

Regardless of these negs. The Orthodox have always shown a much more intelligent understanding of scripture and theological reasoning here in this board... along/next to RCC. Like, how many times are we both on the same side in the theology boards?

Orthodoxy is great, even if various Orthodox people are exasperating.

 

[Gnarwhal]

I had the same issue. I'm asian/hispanic looking so I was getting stares from people including the priest as if "what are you doing here?"... nearly uncomfortable. Although the mass was nearly the same in it's layout.

See for me, that kind of behavior begs the question: if they're going to be ethnically exclusive, what makes their communities any different from the presbyterians who treat Sundays more like a rotary club than a church? Because their reclusive and exclusive nature leads me to believe they congregate on Sundays as more of a socio-ethnic tradition than a genuine religious experience.

 

[chevyontheriver]

See for me, that kind of behavior begs the question: if they're going to be ethnically exclusive, what makes their communities any different from the presbyterians who treat Sundays more like a rotary club than a church? Because their reclusive and exclusive nature leads me to believe they congregate on Sundays as more of a socio-ethnic tradition than a genuine religious experience.

And yet my little town had a German Catholic church, a French Catholic church, and an Irish Catholic church. We also had maybe three different ethnicities of Lutherans too. There was a lot of ethnicity in all sorts of churches. The Orthodox still have it. Two or three generations ago we still had it.

 

[StevenMerten]

Genuine question. Did Peter establish the church of Ephesus? Philipi? Colossus? Thessalonica?

Hello Jason,
St. Paul, and Jesus' Apostles, those other than St. Peter, all started Catholic communities, through out the world. Jesus' put St. Peter in unequaled authority over all Christ's followers, no matter where they are on earth, or who converted them.

If a person is baptized in Christ, in any form of Baptism which is acceptable to the Catholic Church, then Jesus has put St. Peter, and his Successors, in authority over them, and they are, in reality, Baptized Catholics. Many, and I mean many, Baptized Catholics reject Jesus' Authority, which Jesus put in the Papacy, and call themselves Protestants, Orthodox, and other names. If a non-practicing Catholic, who considers himself a Protestant or Orthodox, goes to heaven, then it is through their Baptism into the Blood Covenant of Jesus Christ, with His Church, the Catholic Church, that they do so.

 

[StevenMerten]

The Catholic Church does not 're-Baptize' a Catholic who was Baptized in the Protestant or Orthodox 'churches'. This is because a Baptized Protestant has already been a Catholic since their Baptism; they are simply now coming home to their mother, the Catholic Church.

The Orthodox Church does not 're-Baptize' a Catholic, when they convert to the Orthodox Church, do they?

I know the Protestants generally do, to promote their "no salvation outside, 'their' one true church!".