How does a fallen human nature choose Christ?

[Hammster]

A god who would predestine some everyday unbelieving Joe to eternal torment, with Joe having no responsibility for his sin, and no way to choose for or against life and death, good and evil, God or no God, can only mean that God would be directly responsible for all evil, the direct cause of it. That God would be inferior to Satan, morally speaking .

This is true. However, Joe is responsible for his sin.

 

[Serving Zion]

This is true. However, Joe is responsible for his sin.

When do you say that Joe began to be responsible for his sin?

 

[Hammster]

When do you say that Joe began to be responsible for his sin?

For this discussion, that’s not relevant.

 

[Serving Zion]

For this discussion, that’s not relevant.

Actually, it is wholly relevant, and beneficial to my conversation with OP. This is how it became relevant:

In post #143, you said "God would only be a tyrant if He sent innocent people to hell." - and that is a statement that we all agree is true. So it is important to identify why the people who go to hell are not innocent - meaning, that they are responsible for their sins.

Because a baby (ie: "Joe") has not yet committed any sin, he cannot be responsible for his sin.

There is a type of doctrine out there, which OP presently ascribes to follow, that says babies are born under the curse of Adam and Eve's original sin such that their fallen nature is "imputed" to them, so that there is no way they can be saved (go to heaven) unless they are born again.

OP has even gone so far with that doctrine, to say that babies are born as "children of wrath" and that by extension, they bear resemblance to the image of Satan - Satan being their "spiritual father".

It is a vital point to be clear about, and it can be useful for us to have established that at the earliest opportunity.

 

[Hammster]

Actually, it is wholly relevant, and beneficial to my conversation with OP. This is how it became relevant:

In post #143, you said "God would only be a tyrant if He sent innocent people to hell." - and that is a statement that we all agree is true. So it is important to identify why the people who go to hell are not innocent - meaning, that they are responsible for their sins.

Because a baby (ie: "Joe") has not yet committed any sin, he cannot be responsible for his sin.

There is a type of doctrine out there, which OP presently ascribes to follow, that says babies are born under the curse of Adam and Eve's original sin such that their fallen nature is "imputed" to them, so that there is no way they can be saved (go to heaven) unless they are born again.

OP has even gone so far with that doctrine, to say that babies are born as "children of wrath" and that by extension, they bear resemblance to the image of Satan - Satan being their "spiritual father".

It is a vital point to be clear about, and it can be useful for us to have established that at the earliest opportunity.

Still not relevant for this discussion. Let’s just assume we are talking adults. There are other threads to discuss the state of infants.

 

[Serving Zion]

Sorry that I didn't see this post earlier, and have just noticed it while I was retracing the conversation between hammster and ffhansen. Please let me know if there are others that I have missed, I haven't done so intentionally.

God warned Cain in the provided passage I gave you:

Genesis 4: ESV
3In the course of time Cain brought to the LORDan offering of the fruit of the ground, 4and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the LORD had regard for Abel and his offering,5but for Cain and his offering he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell. 6The LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry, and why has your face fallen? 7If you do well, will you not be accepted?b And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary toc you, but you must rule over it.” (ESV)

Then he killed his brother.

There is no indication in that scripture that Cain had any concept of what murder is, let alone the consequences of it (ie: "The voice of your brother's blood is calling out to me from the ground" and "anyone who finds me will kill me!" - consider Proverbs 28:17).

All it says is that God warned Cain that sin had drawn near to him, desiring to take him, but that he must rule over it - referring at that time to the sin of envy that was consuming him (Proverbs 6:34), for having despised that his brother had found favour in God's eyes.

Which sounds like what a decent defense attorney would evoke for a plea bargain.

Sure, and there is some merit to that fact, if a judge is to be impartial in his judgement. (Cain had never seen murder before - he might have seen his father hit his mother, but even that is something we can only speculate about).

So how was Cain to know that his jealousy would turn into murder and that it would haunt him for the rest of his life? .. simple answer is that he wasn't. So he said to God "my burden is too great for me to bear!" and God agreed: "anyone who kills Cain will be avenged seven times over and was marked as such".

He sure did. God advised him in the Genesis quote I posted now for the second time.

That doesn't say anything specific about rage and murder, only that "sin is crouching at the door". How does a child know that a stove is hot? By the grown-up saying "that's hot!"? .. no, of course, they need to feel what heat does, or at least they can watch what happens to their brother or sister when they find out what heat does.

 

[Serving Zion]

Still not relevant for this discussion.

That's not true (I explained why). What is the reason that you don't want to give a simple answer? .. John 3:20?

 

[Hammster]

That's not true (I explained why). What is the reason that you don't want to give a simple answer? .. John 3:20?

Because it’s not the topic of this thread.

 

[redleghunter]

Can you show some scripture that supports this idea?

Absolutely.

Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Which Paul summarizes in one statement the above below in 2 Corinthians 5:21:

2 Corinthians 5: NASB
21He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

 

[fhansen]

No we are beings who are children of disobedience which is the imputed sin of Adam. Adam and Eve were created without sin and chose the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Making us offspring of the that tree.

It is that nature which must be dealt with and in which God in His eternal plan of redemption provided.

Paul in Ephesians 2 makes the stark contrast of a child of wrath vs a child of God. He lays out that in our dead state God in His Mercy and love makes us alive in Christ and says by Grace you have been saved.

The problem comes when we insist that God's eternal plan of redemption is not offered to all, that God in His Mercy and love doesn't make all alive in Christ. Regeneration must not precede and overrule man's ability to say no to God.

 

[fhansen]

This is true. However, Joe is responsible for his sin.

Only if he possesses the capability of refraining from it.

 

[Hammster]

The problem comes when we insist that God's eternal plan of redemption is not offered to all, that God in His Mercy and love doesn't make all alive in Christ. Regeneration must not precede and overrule man's ability to say no to God.

It doesn’t. Everyone can say no to God, even the regenerate.

 

[Hammster]

Only if he possesses the capability of refraining from it.

Do you have scripture for that, or is it just a feeling?

 

[fhansen]

Do you have scripture for that, or is it just a feeling?

That has nothing to do with feelings. It has everything to do with why we hold man accountable for crimes, why we express moral outrage or righteous indignation for injustices committed by one party against another. It's because we know that man can do otherwise than commit evil.

It's why Scripture admonishes us to choose good, to choose life, to refrain from sin, to remain in Christ, to not be branches cut off, to ctothe the naked, feed the hungry, etc, etc. Because we can choose. Take that away and you gut the gospel and the purpose of Scripture from beginning to end of it's very reason for existing. .

 

[redleghunter]

There is a type of doctrine out there, which OP presently ascribes to follow, that says babies are born under the curse of Adam and Eve's original sin such that their fallen nature is "imputed" to them, so that there is no way they can be saved (go to heaven) unless they are born again.

Not true. And this is the misunderstanding of God's Grace. And why we hu-mans cannot direct how God saves by Grace. And why given the position of the OP, It's God's Grace which saves. Whereas many make salvation rely on some free choice humans have in accepting something God is offering. WE can't accept freely this gift with the heart of stone and the very act of God replacing the heart of stone with a heart of flesh IS HIS regenerating work, that we may freely choose Him without the stain of sin and death as sons of wrath. Therefore, a baby cannot obtain this salvation by the 'decisional regeneration' many adhere to. Because the very definition of God's Grace is that it is unmerited favor.

OP has even gone so far with that doctrine, to say that babies are born as "children of wrath" and that by extension, they bear resemblance to the image of Satan - Satan being their "spiritual father".

We all are. Yet do you know how God's unmerited favor aka His Grace works for those who cannot speak with their mouths calling on the Lord Jesus Christ? The Scriptures do not say, but the Scriptures are clear that God is Just, Merciful and Loving.

But what do the Scriptures say?

For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION.” So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. (Romans 9:15-16)
​

Actually, the view of a Sovereign God Sovereign in salvation is the fair and compassionate view. Why? Because one relies on the Grace of God knowing He is Just and Good and every soul comes before the Throne of Grace and is rightly judged by the very God-Man Jesus Christ who provided His very own precious blood for our redemption.

So the babies straw man forces folks to rely on their own sense of justice and ignore the very words, will and design of God. If we worry about babies in the nail pierced Hands of Christ, because like all we will appear before Him, then we truly lack the trust and faith for God to truly save us who are consciously condemned sinners who hear the Gospel. Why? Because those babies do not have to do one righteous act to obtain the Grace of God as the Righteousness which saves is the very Righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Hammster]

That has nothing to do with feelings. It has everything to do with why we hold man accountable for crimes, why we express moral outrage or righteous indignation for injustices committed by one party against another. It's because we know that man can do otherwise than commit evil.

It's why Scripture admonishes us to choose good, to choose life, ho refrain from sin, to remain in Christ, to not be branches cut off, to ctothe the named, feed the hungry, etc, etc. Because we can choose. Take that away and you gut the gospel and the purpose of Scripture from beginning to end of it's very reason for existing. .

Okay. And why do you think that this isn’t also true in Reformed Theology?

 

[Danthemailman]

Even though it is man's responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by God the Father, but God does not force man to choose to believe in Christ. Man must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

 

[fhansen]

It doesn’t. Everyone can say no to God, even the regenerate.

If regeneration does not "precede and overrule man's ability to say no to God", then man must be able to say no to being regenerated .

 

[redleghunter]

There is no indication in that scripture that Cain had any concept of what murder is, let alone the consequences of it (ie: "The voice of your brother's blood is calling out to me from the ground" and "anyone who finds me will kill me!" - consider Proverbs 28:17).

All it says is that God warned Cain that sin had drawn near to him, desiring to take him, but that he must rule over it - referring at that time to the sin of envy that was consuming him (Proverbs 6:34), for having despised that his brother had found favour in God's eyes.

Is it your point Cain was punished by God for something he did not know was wrong? God already rebuked Cain for his anger and Jesus tells us in Matthew 5:

Matthew 5: NASB
21“You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Jesus was not dealing with a new way at looking at murder. Anger is the murder in the heart. That is what God was telling Cain and Cain went ahead and did it. And the very fact that Cain after having his offering rejected became dejected and angry shows he did not have to learn this but the very nature of sin was inherent in him.

 

[fhansen]

Even though it is man's responsibility to choose to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief in Christ is not exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us in and enables us (John 6:44,65) we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by God the Father, but God does not force man to choose to believe in Christ. Man must choose to believe in Him. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

This is true. The main difference in opinion here is whether or not man can still say no to God's initiative, whether he can refuse it, can resist grace.