The quiet despair of Protestants

[Just Another User]

Another note of import is that the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox do not have the terrible history of Catholic and Protestant lands of burning thousands at the stake for being declared witches.

Indeed. The murder of innocent men and women in a complete stain on Western Christianity. Witches weren't even believed until the 10th century for crying out loud! To add to the case of murder, killing any heretic for their beliefs is actually evil and cannot be excused under any circumstance. Absolutely sickening. We're told to love our enemy, not to burn them for being modalists and denying transubstantiation. Just judge the fruits of Rome and you'll realise how rotten the tree is.

My favourite point is that the sects of Calvinism, Lutheranism Zwinglism and Catholicism all persecuted Anabaptists despite being the most Christ-like group of Christians in a long, long time. Ironic really.

 

[Just Another User]

It's Papal infallibility and you should submit to it or else.... until it blows back into our face years later and we'll pretend that we never took it seriously anyway.

 

[Albion]

My favourite point is that the sects of Calvinism, Lutheranism Zwinglism and Catholicism all persecuted Anabaptists despite being the most Christ-like group of Christians in a long, long time. Ironic really.

How about the Cathars and Lollards?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Have you ever read Unam Sanctum, by Pope Boniface? Quite a piece of work, and there is no doubt he was invoking the authority of Peter.

The seven sons of sheva tried to invoke the authority of Jesus who Paul proclaims .....

 

[Basil the Great]

Yes, but did those torture bulls include the papal formula for infallibility? If not, Catholics will simply say it never carried the weight of infallibility. Unam Sanctum explicitly does pretend to have that authority.

All Ultra Traditional Catholics certainly believe that the three Papal Bulls from the Middle Ages that deal with salvation have the protection of Papal Infallibility. I dare say that most Traditional Catholics would concur, though many/most of them have to figure out how said Bulls have now effectively been revoked and I suppose that the doctrine of "invincible ignorance" is how they would explain the current Church's teaching on salvation and how it differs from those three Papal Bulls. Most Liberal Catholics would just say that the three Papal Bulls from the Middle Ages that deal with salvation were not safeguarded by Papal Infallibility.

As to the Bull that authorized torture, it includes nothing to show that it was specifically an infallible teaching, in and of itself. It was not even a teaching per se, but Church legislation. However, an Ultra Traditional Catholic could theoretically make the case that said authorization is protected by the Infallibility of the Ordinary Magisterium doctrine, since the authorization was on the books of for 5 and 1/2 centuries and kept intact by many, many Popes.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But Scripture doesn't give us a specific explanation of just how God's plan works. He expects us to make decisions. He responds to what we do. The prophets tell us he has both short- and long-term plans. But we don't have a detailed account of how this all works.

We might get to cover this in another thread some day. It differs significantly and vitally from what I see in Scripture (not in doctrines of men).

 

[Just Another User]

How about the Cathars and Lollards?

For the most part along with the waldensians, these groups were actually great (though the Cathars dualisitc beliefs was grounded Gnosticism and downright heretic I'll concede). I don't think they have as good a history as the early Anabaptists in my opinion. I prefer Anabaptists though because I believe they lived excellent and godly lives and due to them surviving better than the other groups to be a somewhat "popular" movement even to this day. To my knowledge, the Cathars were pretty much wiped out by a genocidal act started by Pope Innocent III with over half a million men women and children exterminated like animals.

What's ironic is that the Protestants as soon as they got some authority started persecuting just like Rome and that's when the great Anabaptist dealt with many trials against the rest of the world for many a year.

 

[rockytopva]

For the most part along with the waldensians, these groups were actually great (though the Cathars dualisitc beliefs was grounded Gnosticism and downright heretic I'll concede). I don't think they have as good a history as the early Anabaptists in my opinion. I prefer Anabaptists though because I believe they lived excellent and godly lives and due to them surviving better than the other groups to be a somewhat "popular" movement even to this day. To my knowledge, the Cathars were pretty much wiped out by a genocidal act started by Pope Innocent III with over half a million men women and children exterminated like animals.

What's ironic is that the Protestants as soon as they got some authority started persecuting just like Rome and that's when the great Anabaptist dealt with many trials against the rest of the world for many a year.

“Love will not be constrain'd by mastery. When mast'ry comes, the god of love anon Beateth his wings, and, farewell, he is gone. Love is a thing as any spirit free.” ― Geoffrey Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales

It seems though that any Christian congregation, when they get big enough to form a denomination, that the first thing to go is the original spirituality that made them unique, and in time they become just as bad as everyone else.

 

[Basil the Great]

Back to the OP.... there is no doubt that there is some truth to the thrust of the OP's argument. Protestantism, by it's very nature, lends itself to a certain degree of despair, as individual interpretation of Scripture, even in the light of the writings of the Church Fathers and the Nicene Creed, still leaves one with a degree of uncertainty.

 

[Just Another User]

“Love will not be constrain'd by mastery. When mast'ry comes, the god of love anon Beateth his wings, and, farewell, he is gone. Love is a thing as any spirit free.” ― Geoffrey Chaucer, The Canterbury Tales

It seems though that any Christian congregation, when they get big enough to form a denomination, that the first thing to go is the original spirituality that made them unique, and in time they become just as bad as everyone else.

So true. Excellent quote too. Power does corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Just compare what the early church believed to what those who claim to have the "historic" Christian faith have. As soon as we had power over man outside the realms of the church the rot began to set in.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth.

They sound like a minority. The majority believes scripture is the truth given to the Apostles. So I would not put much credence in this.

the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both.

You see both sides of this in scripture because they are both true however the context has changed over the centuries. The original reformation justification by faith alone, Luther, was specifically speaking of the RCC at that time. The RRC said you were not saved by faith but that you must add the dogma of the church as well, hence faith plus the works of the sacraments....all of them. That was then.
Now ....it has morphed into something quite twisted the "free grace movement", this may be what your group is speaking of. A movement by Zane Hodges of Dallas seminary that claims justification by faith alone means you don't have to have repentance with your faith and you don't have to have
good works or a change of life.

 

[☦Marius☦]

You can be an Eastern Orthodox. They do not have the baggage of approving torture, but how does one explain the fact that they twice merged with the Catholics after the 1054 schism, but then changed their minds. Yes, you can accept their explanation of the populace not accepting that their leaders voted to merge, but that seems a little shaky. It almost appears as if the Oriental Orthodox have the strongest case of all, except they are the smallest group of Christendom, so where does that leave most Christians if we say that the OO best represents the one true Church.

The Orthodox didn't "unify twice but changed their minds" a portion unified while the rest stayed to endure persecution. The ones who United never came back and became eastern Catholics. Not only that but the Russian, Bulgarian, etc Churchs existed at that time so only some Greeks unified

Also the OO have too much disunity from their variety of heresy caused by monophysetic theology.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yes, I almost went to that famous/infamous Papal Bull and how it has effectively been overturned by the modern Church, but I decided to keep my argument centered on the authorization of torture. However, as famous/infamous as Unam Sanctum is, it pales in comparison to Cantate Domino, as it specifically condemned "heretics, schismatics, pagans and Jews".

A very good example of Christian bullying. "We are bigger than you, have Apostolic authority, therefore if you don't agree with us, we will torture you, hang you, or burn you at the stake."

 

[RDKirk]

As a Marine colonel once said to some of my troops who were complaining about me tasking them for Saturday training, "If you know what Top told you to do, why are you asking me?"

Which of us doesn't know what the mission is? Which of us doesn't have enough information to go about fulfilling it?

What more do we really have to know? Everything else is a dinner discussion, what Paul called in Romans 14 a "disputable matter."

 

[hedrick]

What more do we really have to know? Everything else is a dinner discussion, what Paul called in Romans 14 a "disputable matter."

What is it about Christians that we don't seem to be able to treat anything as a matter for please conversation?

 

[anna ~ grace]

So, I do agree with the OP. The sheer amount of diversity in Protestant thought on vital and central points demonstates that something is not right. There is some wiggle room or capacity for diversity of thought / opinion within Catholic and Orthodox theology, but not to the extent that one sees in the Protestant world.

 

[Basil the Great]

The Orthodox didn't "unify twice but changed their minds" a portion unified while the rest stayed to endure persecution. The ones who United never came back and became eastern Catholics. Not only that but the Russian, Bulgarian, etc Churchs existed at that time so only some Greeks unified

Also the OO have too much disunity from their variety of heresy caused by monophysetic theology.

Thanks for the reply. You are probably right in saying that not all of the Eastern Orthodox unified. The 2nd of the 3 Middle Age Papal Bulls dealing with salvation, Unam Sanctam, even referred specifically to "the Greeks".

 

[Basil the Great]

My dad believes very similarly to I in that we believe there are many congregations in Christianity....

1. Messianic
2. Persecuted
3. Orthodox
4. Catholic
5. Protestant
6. Wesleyan / Pentecostal
7. Word of Faith / Charismatic

My dad sometimes attends three services

1. 9AM - Lutheran service
2. 10AM - Charismatic worship service
3. 11AM - Pentecostal Holiness worship service

And we will sometime visit the Catholic church on rare occasion. We went to the Catholic Christmas Mass Christmas morning and there on the special Christmas songbook were posted warnings not to partake of communion if you were not Catholic, also advertising that they were the only true church. I had a hard time with that and have no desire to go back. Because of the shortage of priests their priest was a Nigerian who was very difficult to understand.

My favorite holiday place this season was with the Lutheran church. During Thanksgiving they had a wonderful meal in which they invited the whole community. There was a large turnout with people from all kinds of denominations. We would identify our denomination, in which there were also Catholics, but that was the extent of our denominational talk. The meal was wonderful with the availability of large helpings of turkey, ham, potatoes, stuffing, bread, and desserts. And it was also enjoyed with wonderful fellowship with the people. And all the people looked and behaved themselves as Christian.

We invited the whole family to the Lutheran Christmas Eve service. It was a wonderful service with the Pastor taking time to delight in the children there. At the end of the Christmas Eve service they had communion in which we would all go and kneel at the altar until the pastor came by and served us the communion. All reverently done! And there was wonderful fellowship after the service as well.

The winner for the holiday season this year goes to the Lutherans. I loved the way they done their services and the Thanksgiving meal was wonderful. Also noting the wonderful Christian spirit that existed with the members there. I was most disappointing with the Catholic service, with no despair over not being one, amazed over the fact as they are still warring with Protestants which was made evident right there along with the Christmas Carols in bold print. And also noting that most of the carols they were singing came right out of Protestant churches. Especially noting that we were kind to the Catholics who attended the Lutheran events earlier in the season.

I wish there were more Christians like your dad. There are good things to be found in every Christian body and if we had more like your dad who visits different groups, then I think we would see more brotherhood and sisterhood within the family of Christ.

 

[salt-n-light]

[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!

I'm gonna respectfully state that post like these, are annoying because so frequency I see Catholics on CF taking time to prove that they are the true church when even their own church got LAYERS of issues and difference in ideology. Idk the amount of time thinking about how many ways can one address faith and works argument, you can actually spend that time getting to know God.

Faith and works are not separate, works are fruits and faith are the roots but Jesus is the vine.

 

[Basil the Great]

I'm gonna respectfully state that post like these, are annoying because so frequency I see Catholics on CF taking time to prove that they are the true church when even their own church got LAYERS of issues and difference in ideology. Idk the amount of time thinking about how many ways can one address faith and works argument, you can actually spend that time getting to know God.

Faith and works are not separate, works are fruits and faith are the roots but Jesus is the vine.

I understand what you are saying. However, it is hard to blame Catholics for speaking up in favor of what their Church teaches. We should probably admire their loyalty to Mother Church.