If free will (choice) is only a mirage....

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

 

[JazzHands]

..And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

Precisely! Amen!

 

[Dave L]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

God is not the omnipotent creator if he does not cause and control everything.

 

[JazzHands]

God is not the omnipotent creator if he does not cause and control everything.

I don't mean to sound contrarian but isn't it more likely to be a case of "CAN cause and control everything" but gave us free will to so that we might become more than mere instinctive creatures?

 

[Dave L]

I don't mean to sound contrarian but isn't it more likely to be a case of "CAN cause and control everything" but gave us free will to so that we might become more than mere instinctive creatures?

Free will only reacts to conditions God uses to control us. In this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the conditions you base your choices on.

 

[A_Thinker]

For those who believe free will is only a mirage and we don't really have it for the most important human choice, because it would negate God's Sovereignty somehow:

(1) Why don't you also expect that when the Absolutely Sovereign God created us new, He would instantaneously perfect the one who can't do anything to lose their salvation? Why don't you expect that He would make us so like Him in the instant--so as to be His perfect living epistles in this fallen world, so as to have a very clear dividing line--between those He has chosen and those He has not? Afterall, if we are concerned about how God's sovereignty looks slighted when people have choice, then how much more impotent does the Almighty God appear when the wholly chosen don't look any different than those who won't be saved?

(2) But, if God has, in His amazing Absolutely Sovereign choice, chosen to gift us with free will to make our own choices with regards to our walk with Him, we have a much clearer picture of why the visible church looks the way it does and why even truly InSpirited believers don't agree on everything. Then, the deficiencies in our walk are not His, but ours. The deficiencies in believer's unity are not His, but ours. And, then, how He makes what He promises will happen without violating that free will is even a more extraordinary testimony of God's Absolute Sovereignty.

God's will is that you CHOOSE HIM ... which is not possible ... unless you have the power to choose. It is not a mirage ...

Adam CHOSE his wife over God ...

Genesis 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it:

Deuteronomy 30:19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now CHOOSE life, so that you and your children may live

Joshua 24:15 But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.”

Proverbs 1:28 “Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me,
29 since they hated knowledge and did not CHOOSE to fear the LORD.

 

[JazzHands]

Free will only reacts to conditions God uses to control us. In this way you have free will and choose what you want. But God controls your choice by providing the conditions you base your choices on.

Oh that's fine, that's sort of my philosophy too - rather like being able to switch lanes on a motorway!

 

[Dave L]

Oh that's fine, that's sort of my philosophy too - rather like being able to switch lanes on a motorway!

But only for the reason God uses to control your free choice.

 

[A_Thinker]

God is not the omnipotent creator if he does not cause and control everything.

Having "all power" is not the same as exercising "all power".

 

[JazzHands]

But only for the reason God uses to control your free choice.

Aaaaahhh you see, that's where we probably diverge. To use an analogy, what's the point of charity if it's compulsory? What is salt without savour?

I don't think God wants mindless automatons, I think the very reason we were cut off was so that we could learn to become whole and distinct.

 

[Dave L]

Aaaaahhh you see, that's where we probably diverge. To use an analogy, what's the point of charity if it's compulsory? What is salt without savour?

I don't think God wants mindless automatons, I think the very reason we were cut off was so that we could learn to become whole and distinct.

If love comes from you, you do not have God's love. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and God uses it to form our choices for the better.

 

[Dave L]

Having "all power" is not the same as exercising "all power".

Who else can exercise power of their own accord if God is omnipotent?

 

[A_Thinker]

If love comes from you, you do not have God's love. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and God uses it to form our choices for the better.

So ... do we have NOTHING of God ... prior to our regeneration ?

If so, ... from whom do we derive our being ?

 

[JazzHands]

If love comes from you, you do not have God's love. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and God uses it to form our choices for the better.

So you're suggesting that there is nothing about ourselves that either belongs to us or can be attributed to us except the evils that we commit?

That's a rather hopeless and depressing outlook. I think I'll stick with my original interpretation but good luck to you!

Oh and God IS omnipotent for sure but that doesn;t mean he wants to micromanage lots of bots. God is the source of life.. he's a creator, not a manipulator.

 

[Dave L]

So you're suggesting that there is nothing about ourselves that either belongs to us or can be attributed to us except the evils that we commit?

That's a rather hopeless and depressing outlook. I think I'll stick with my original interpretation but good luck to you!

Oh and God IS omnipotent for sure but that doesn;t mean he wants to micromanage lots of bots. God is the source of life.. he's a creator, not a manipulator.

Rejoice that God motivates you through the love of the Holy Spirit to make good choices. It would not happen otherwise. To think so is to rob God of his glory and lavish it on yourself.

 

[A_Thinker]

Who else can exercise power of their own accord if God is omnipotent?

To those He gives power ...

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

 

[Dave L]

So ... do we have NOTHING of God ... prior to our regeneration ?

If so, ... from whom do we derive our being ?

All comes from God the creator of all.

 

[Dave L]

To those He gives power ...

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

But it's his power. Not yours.

 

[JazzHands]

But it's his power. Not yours.

Would you tell your children that their lives are not their own but belong to you?

 

[A_Thinker]

But it's his power. Not yours.

A bit of a semantic dance, wouldn't you say ... since the scripture says that He gave us power ?

What about salvation, another gift ? Is it not ours ?

Are God's gifts not immutable ?

Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.