If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

[he-man]

The "end" (i.e. outcome) of jumping out of an airplane at high altitude without a parachute is death. Does that mean (1) the person's body dies or does it mean they will (2) be tortured forever or (3) endlessly annihilated out of existence? Answer: #1 is correct & #2 & #3 are wrong. That verses does not support your anti Scriptural universalism error. As always another lame attempt to refute Biblical universalism bites the dust.

If only you would give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:12　 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Avoid deceit and read the Bible: 1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in deceit; having their conscience cauterized;
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Rev 21:8　 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.　

Proverbs 16:22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. [the second death.]

Job 30:8 They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

Revelation20:13　 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.　

Revelation 20:14　 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.　

Revelation 20:15　 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.　

Revelation 19:19　 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.　

Revelation 19:20　 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.　

Revelation 19:21　 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.　

 

[Hieronymus]

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

YES.

Hmmm... It seems nobody agrees..
Yet i'm quite sure i don't have to explain why i think that, because it should be obvious enough.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Hmmm... It seems nobody agrees..
Yet i'm quite sure i don't have to explain why i think that, because it should be obvious enough.

Hmmm....

If God were a monster, it would be known already.

If _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ is true, does that change God ?

Fill in the blank with anything perhaps - God doesn't change -

God made everything simple ,

man created many devices/ sins/ deceptions/ etc etc etc.....

i.e. man changes, not often for the better.

 

[ClementofA]

If only you would give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

1 Timothy 4:12　 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Avoid deceit and read the Bible: 1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in deceit; having their conscience cauterized;
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Rev 21:8　 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.　

Proverbs 16:22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. [the second death.]

Job 30:8 They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

Revelation20:13　 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.　

Revelation 20:14　 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.　

Revelation 20:15　 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.　

Revelation 19:19　 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.　

Revelation 19:20　 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.　

Revelation 19:21　 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.　

In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

 

[he-man]

In typical he-man form you ignore what i posted & repeat the same verse again and/or post some other verses without addressing what i've posted. All your verses have been addressed before & you had no answer to how they were shown to be harmonious with Scriptural universalism.

Heb.10:28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

Study the Bible and you will learn more about when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death and it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come and that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God and]Neither repented

Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

Leviticus 20:27 A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them.

Leviticus 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.

Matthew12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Exodus 22:18 but she was to be had before a court of judicature and tried there, and, if found guilty, to be put to death by the civil magistrate: so Jarchi's note is,"but she shall die by the house of judgment; [GILL]

Galations 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 9:21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

 

[Lazarus Short]

I do a lot of thinking when I walk, and so I went for a walk this afternoon and thought about that famous verse about the wages of sin being death...and another.

When I got home, I tracked it down on the www by way of Biblehub. It's Romans 6:23, as follows, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

This is one of those times when proper grammatical English doesn't sound right, as it really should say, "...the wages of sin are death...," but I noted that almost all translations use "is." Whatever, it is just amazing that God's free gift overrules our wages, our proper payout for what we have done. I like to pair verse 23 with verse 7 for the complete thought:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord...For he that is dead is freed from sin."

So, first you get the wages (death) and then you get a "pink slip" from your job of following sin. Note that verse 23 says our wages for sinning are death - NOT an eternity in Hell.

There it is - another reason to doubt Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell - if we are truly freed from sin when we die, how is it that we are going to be sent to Hell? God forbid!

 

[he-man]

I do a lot of thinking when I walk, and so I went for a walk this afternoon and thought about that famous verse about the wages of sin being death...and another.

When I got home, I tracked it down on the www by way of Biblehub. It's Romans 6:23, as follows, "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

This is one of those times when proper grammatical English doesn't sound right, as it really should say, "...the wages of sin are death...," but I noted that almost all translations use "is." Whatever, it is just amazing that God's free gift overrules our wages, our proper payout for what we have done. I like to pair verse 23 with verse 7 for the complete thought:

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord...For he that is dead is freed from sin."

So, first you get the wages (death) and then you get a "pink slip" from your job of following sin. Note that verse 23 says our wages for sinning are death - NOT an eternity in Hell.

There it is - another reason to doubt Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell - if we are truly freed from sin when we die, how is it that we are going to be sent to Hell? God forbid!

Thank God we have more than one translator you need to walk through the whole Bible and not what appeals to men.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ;　

2Th 1:9　 who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might,　[DARBY]

 

[Lazarus Short]

Thank God we have more than one translator you need to walk through the whole Bible and not what appeals to men.

Actually, I have, and wrote a 200+ page book on the non-existence of Hell.

 

[he-man]

Actually, I have, and wrote a 200+ page book on the non-existence of Hell.

Good, then you are one step closer than most people. Hell is just the grave, the place where dead people go. No existence and only those who are asleep in Christ will be awakened or had knowledge and then refused to accept it.

 

[Hieronymus]

But there's Hades / the grave and there's the Lake of Fire.
The latter is the 2nd death for what is not holy / sanctified / justified.
But which one is "hell"?

 

[Hieronymus]

View attachment 247533

Hmmm...So according to the writer of this little piece, the death penalty is merciful...

And it's according to the Bible that the wages of sin is death, not according to 'a theory'.

 

[Hieronymus]

Hmmm....

If God were a monster, it would be known already.

You mean like when his creation suffers and children get kidnapped, trafficked, raped, sacrificed and their fear adrenalized blood is used as a drug, and the perps not only get away with it, they are rich and powerful?
There are many more examples of how sick God's creation is.
Natural disasters, horrific diseases, horrific warfare, indulgence in wickedness of all kinds, etcetera.
Lies, deceptions, hate, hateful teachings and religions growing, etcetera.

If _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ is true, does that change God ?

Fill in the blank with anything perhaps - God doesn't change -

God made everything simple ,

man created many devices/ sins/ deceptions/ etc etc etc.....

Not only man.
Genesis 3 tells us about the serpent.
Genesis 6 tells us about the sons of God giving reason for the Flood.
Psalms 82 tells us about the corrupted sons of God of Deuteronomy 23:8

It's a right old mess in all, isn't it...
But i'm always a bit more gloomy this time of year, so it could be my mood and resulting perspective.

But i don't believe God is a monster.
I have faith in Him and his Righteousness.
But there's definitely a portion of 'wait and see' there too.

 

[Lazarus Short]

Good, then you are one step closer than most people. Hell is just the grave, the place where dead people go. No existence and only those who are asleep in Christ will be awakened or had knowledge and then refused to accept it.
View attachment 247533

If annihilation is true, then Death, the last enemy, can never be destroyed, as those annihilated are still dead...but your Bible and mine says it will be. If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death is not yet defeated.

 

[he-man]

But there's Hades / the grave and there's the Lake of Fire.
The latter is the 2nd death for what is not holy / sanctified / justified.
But which one is "hell"?

Hell and death are the same and the Lake of Fire is from God
Revelation 19:20　 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Genesis19:24　 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Revelation 20:15　 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:21　 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

 

[he-man]

If annihilation is true, then Death, the last enemy, can never be destroyed, as those annihilated are still dead...but your Bible and mine says it will be. If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death is not yet defeated.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hebrews 2:14　 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the false accuser;

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the false accuser that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be vexed day and night for ever and ever.
H2000 vex הָמַם hâmam destroy: - break, consume, crush,
　

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

If annihilation is true, then Death, the last enemy, can never be destroyed, as those annihilated are still dead...but your Bible and mine says it will be. If anyone is still dead and/or in Hell, then Death is not yet defeated.

No worries.
Those opposed to Yahweh,
because of unbelief, people die, and are never seen again after being thrown in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Those resurrected to life in Jesus, never die again.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No worries.
Those opposed to Yahweh,
because of unbelief, people die, and are never seen again after being thrown in the lake of fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Those resurrected to life in Jesus, never die again.

OK, but you could explain how Death is defeated if the dead "...are never seen again..." They are still dead, and so Death cannot be defeated, yes?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

OK, but you could explain how Death is defeated if the dead "...are never seen again..." They are still dead, and so Death cannot be defeated, yes?

No.
That's just semantics, as in the previous post I replied to.

Death is defeated when those raised in Christ Jesus are raised, never to die again.

Those who do not trust Jesus, have not life, and never have life, ever. (if they never turn to Yahweh BEFORE they die, trusting Jesus, i.e. repent)

 

[Hieronymus]

Hell and death are the same and the Lake of Fire is from God
Revelation 19:20　 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Genesis19:24　 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Revelation 20:15　 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 19:21　 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

These are all examples of what happens after Judgement.
So that's not about "Hades", which is often also translated as "hell"
Things have been mixed up.
The word "inferno" literally means "netherworld". The word "inferior" uses the same root.
So it's mistakenly used as a synonym for a fiery unpleasant place.

 

[Lazarus Short]

No.
That's just semantics, as in the previous post I replied to.

Death is defeated when those raised in Christ Jesus are raised, never to die again.

Those who do not trust Jesus, have not life, and never have life, ever. (if they never turn to Yahweh BEFORE they die, trusting Jesus, i.e. repent)

God does not play semantic games, and I insist that if any are in Hell, annihilated or whatever, they are still DEAD, and insisting that Death is still defeated is putting lipstick on a pig.