Is prohibiting female church leadership (over men) legalistic?

[Oldmantook]

1 Timothy 2:15 Yet she will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control.

Hard to reconcile this verse with the gospel message, which is salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. However, faith in Christ will yield fruit, and such fruit will include making disciples. So producing "little christs" does not save anyone, but is works evidencing saving faith.

The gospel message not only includes belief (Jn 3:16) but also obedience (Heb 5:9). Both are required for eternal life. Grace given by God makes it possible for us to obey. Titus 2:11-12 states: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us that, having denied ungodliness and worldly passions, we should live discreetly and righteously and piously in the present age,"
Our obedience yields fruit. Disobedience yields no good fruit and disqualifies the believer from salvation. That is why if you notice there is a clause in this verse as indicated by the word "if" - if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. Not all believers continue in the faith. Not all believers continue in faith, love, holiness and self-control. If they do, then they will be saved.

 

[SkyWriting]

One cannot prove form the scriptures alone that God authorized women as elders/pastors, to get that viewpoint, have to force into the bible assumed cultural norms and how society states that it should now be!

Scripture states states that it should now be equal!

Matthew 7:12
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Philippians 2:3-4
Luke 6:31
Mark 12:31

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

The gospel message not only includes belief (Jn 3:16) but also obedience (Heb 5:9).

Where you say obedience here, this is obedience to the requirement to have faith - to believe on Jesus for salvation.

Both are required for eternal life. Grace given by God makes it possible for us to obey. Titus 2:11-12 states: "For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, instructing us that, having denied ungodliness and worldly passions, we should live discreetly and righteously and piously in the present age,"
Our obedience yields fruit. Disobedience yields no good fruit and disqualifies the believer from salvation. That is why if you notice there is a clause in this verse as indicated by the word "if" - if they continue in faith and love and holiness, with self-control. Not all believers continue in the faith. Not all believers continue in faith, love, holiness and self-control. If they do, then they will be saved.

I would phrase this, our faith yields fruit, which is obedience. No faith is evidenced by disobedience. But disobedience (sin) doesn't always mean no faith.

Claiming that the gospel message requires obedience implies works, which is not the gospel message. The works come if the faith is genuine.

 

[Daniel C]

Its threads like this that show that Christianity is not for women.

Do you think you would have a better position in Islam or orthodox Judaism?

 

[Oldmantook]

Where you say obedience here, this is obedience to the requirement to have faith - to believe on Jesus for salvation.

I would phrase this, our faith yields fruit, which is obedience. No faith is evidenced by disobedience. But disobedience (sin) doesn't always mean no faith.

Claiming that the gospel message requires obedience implies works, which is not the gospel message. The works come if the faith is genuine.

I agree that good works come as a result of faith and are not the cause of it. That is how Jesus judges the genuineness of the faith of the 7 Churches in Revelation - by their works, or lack thereof. Works has gotten a bad rap in Western Christianity as if our works don't matter to God. The verse we are discussing is a framework for the primary role of women that God ordained. IF a women functions and carries out her responsibilities within that role; i.e. child-bearing, motherhood, then she will be saved as she has been obedient to fulfilling that role.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Do you think you would have a better position in Islam or orthodox Judaism?

If people become Christians for reasons other than eternal salvation, they're embracing Christianity for the wrong reason.

 

[Paidiske]

I really think that's a pretty poor reading of that verse.

The tricky word is the one translated " through" - as if it's the childbearing which causes or is somehow the instrument of salvation. But the Greek word dia has a much broader range of meaning than the English "through."

I'd suggest the best sense would actually come from translating it "during;" that is, God will keep her safe during (the life-threateningly dangerous process of) childbearing, provided they continue...

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

I really think that's a pretty poor reading of that verse.

The tricky word is the one translated " through" - as if it's the childbearing which causes or is somehow the instrument of salvation. But the Greek word dia has a much broader range of meaning than the English "through."

I'd suggest the best sense would actually come from translating it "during;" that is, God will keep her safe during (the life-threateningly dangerous process of) childbearing, provided they continue...

But wouldn't this translation render the verse false, as there are any number of faithful Christian mothers who die during childbirth?

 

[Paidiske]

But wouldn't this translation render the verse false, as there are any number of faithful Christian mothers who die during childbirth?

I think Paul's articulating a general principle, not spelling out what will be every person's experience without exception. There are plenty of general principles which don't apply to every single person without exception.

 

[bekkilyn]

I think she meant it wasn't a politically correct joke. But hey, political correctness was invented by the Communists, so I wouldn't rate it up there with lines I'm never going to cross.

Nope, I wasn't in any way making it political, but under the authority of scripture as Christ commands us to love each other as *he* loves his church. When you make so-called "jokes" that not only degrade, but in which the reality has actually done serious physical and mental harm to other people, then maybe we might not find it very Christ-like to enjoy our humor at the cost of other people's pain.

 

[bekkilyn]

Actually, this is wrong. I understand there is more difference between male and female than there is between black and white. So while gender is only part of what makes us unique, it plays a much bigger part than race (and we know different races can be very different).

It only plays a bigger part because people give it much more emphasis than it deserves. I have spoken numerous times with transgender people to try to understand why they "feel" they are male or female rather than their biological sex and have gotten no real answers, probably because there really is no definition of what makes a person male or female outside of biology. The fact that someone is a woman is only one small part of her identity.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

Nope, I wasn't in any way making it political, but under the authority of scripture as Christ commands us to love each other as *he* loves his church. When you make so-called "jokes" that not only degrade, but in which the reality has actually done serious physical and mental harm to other people, then maybe we might not find it very Christ-like to enjoy our humor at the cost of other people's pain.

I don't think there is anything degrading about the noble roles God calls us to, no matter how society might demean the role of wife and mother.

I seriously doubt there was ever a case of a woman being literally chained to the kitchen sink, but even if there was, I doubt such a woman would be alive today to be hurt by such a joke.

 

[bekkilyn]

That's your opinion. I only wish I could stay home and be looked after, with my only work to bear children and look after the ones I bear. It would be much more fulfilling than the scourge that work has become in our modern age (also part of the curse to Adam - "in pain eating of the ground", and "eating bread by the sweat of his face").

I wish you could too because you would find out very quickly that unless you were called by God to do so, you would be in for a long, practically unendurable time of great misery and despair, especially if your surrounding culture gave you no other legal options and you were just stuck until your (probably early) death during childbearing. If you believe that work is a scourge instead of a blessing under Christ's new covenant, then you are in the wrong line of work and need to be in serious prayers to discern what it is that God has called you to do, because until you are obedient, you are never going to find the joy and peace of living into your intended purpose.

 

[bekkilyn]

Maybe. God's curse about work was to men, so maybe this is why women seem quite happy to go to work. It's a shame men can't give birth, because as God's curse for women was around child-birth, maybe this is the reason men feel it would be an easier option for them?

Through Christ, the curse has been lifted. There is no reason whatsoever that we as Christians need to be living into those curses. Women are just as unhappy as you concerning work when the work they are doing isn't the work God is calling them to do. One needs to spend time in prayer *listening* to God rather than jumping into a job and hoping that God just goes along with the idea. Many people are greatly fulfilled with their work when it matches up with who God intended them to be.

 

[bekkilyn]

Do you think you would have a better position in Islam or orthodox Judaism?

She probably would not, but I have spoken to and attempted to witness to many Atheists who used to be within a given religion and then due to experiences with hypocrisy and bigotry have decided that ALL institutionalized religion is harmful and that the world would be a much better place if religion was abolished. It's a growing belief in our time.

 

[bekkilyn]

If people become Christians for reasons other than eternal salvation, they're embracing Christianity for the wrong reason.

How about because they truly love Jesus and want to surrender their lives to him, and not just because they are striving to get some sort of reward out of it?

 

[Daniel C]

She probably would not, but I have spoken to and attempted to witness to many Atheists who used to be within a given religion and then due to experiences with hypocrisy and bigotry have decided that ALL institutionalized religion is harmful and that the world would be a much better place if religion was abolished. It's a growing belief in our time.

Is it the religious people who are hypocrites or is it the self righteous (God denying) Atheist?

 

[bekkilyn]

I don't think there is anything degrading about the noble roles God calls us to, no matter how society might demean the role of wife and mother.

I seriously doubt there was ever a case of a woman being literally chained to the kitchen sink, but even if there was, I doubt such a woman would be alive today to be hurt by such a joke.

You might be surprised by what many women of today have been through.

 

[bekkilyn]

Is it the religious people who are hypocrites or is it the self righteous (God denying) Atheist?

I'd say there is a good mixture of both, which means that we as Christians need to be better witnesses in our behavior and the way we treat others, as Christ commanded.

 

[Doctor.Sphinx]

How about because they truly love Jesus and want to surrender their lives to him, and not just because they are striving to get some sort of reward out of it?

If you love Jesus, you'll understand what He did for you. If you don't understand what He did for you, I don't know that you can really love Him fully.

Anyway, this is getting a little off-topic, in that it's not addressing the scriptural basis for allowing women to be leaders over men.

Not that I believe this is a basis, but I believe Deborah is an exception that is worth consideration. She went to battle with the army (a king's job) because Barak was too scared to carry out his duty. Does this example have any use in the church today?