Did the Obama Administration spy on Trump?

Obama administration spied on Trump?

  • Of course they did and thought they would get away with it

    Votes: 14 51.9%
  • No

    Votes: 13 48.1%

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jmldn2

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There is a "Deep State" and it is all about unseating a president it did not want to be elected. That Deep State is not for the good of the country but for the good of those who want to destroy this Republic and all that it stands for. I am looking forward to the Deep State and it's followers being routed out and brought to justice.
 
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The Barbarian

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There is a "Deep State"

Indeed. The founders built it into our government, specifically to stop any would-be dictator from imposing his rule on us. It's working pretty well.

and it is all about unseating a president it did not want to be elected.

It's all about preventing him from grabbing power and keeping him from using power to abuse people he hates.

The first blow of the deep state was preventing Trump from jailing Hillary Clinton. The second was to keep him from nullifying the protection of the Constitution. The third was the refusal of the Justice Department to become his personal tool for getting even with his enemies.

The Deep State is for the good of the country but not for the good of those who want to destroy this Republic and all that it stands for. Hence Trump's fury when his lawyers tell him he can't just jail his enemies.

The deep state also brought to justice some of the criminals in the Trump administration, another good thing. The founders established it for a purpose, and it's working well.
 
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jmldn2

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There is a Deep State. It is not in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights. The Deep State is a concerted effort to overthrow this president, not because of anything his has done but because of what they want to do to our Republic. It's real. It's evil. It's wrong.
 
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Oprah_Loves_God

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There is a Deep State. It is not in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights. The Deep State is a concerted effort to overthrow this president, not because of anything his has done but because of what they want to do to our Republic. It's real. It's evil. It's wrong.

If the Deep State wants rid of Trump, isn't that a good thing?
If the Deep State is anti-Trump sign me up.

I value and respect women.
I care about truth and honesty.
I think marriage and family is important in word AND deed.
I recognise that sowing chaos everywhere is not good.
I value the rule of law and due process.
I am concerned about the plight, health, and livelihood of my fellow countrymen and those of my allies and enemies.
All those things are anti-Trump.
 
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Tom 1

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There is a Deep State. It is not in the Constitution, Declaration of Independence, Bill of Rights. The Deep State is a concerted effort to overthrow this president, not because of anything his has done but because of what they want to do to our Republic. It's real. It's evil. It's wrong.

Why do you think any of that? Based on what evidence?
 
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The Barbarian said in post #80:

[Re: The deep state]

As you have seen, it didn't go after Trump, but only after criminals in his campaign.

Note that the d.s. warned Senator Feinstein about her Chinese mole, so why didn't it warn Trump about potential problems with his staff and Russia?

The answer is because five-eyes' intel was set against Trump from the start. It hoped to wait and get a "smocking gun" showing Trump himself colluding with Putin with regard to Russia's influence campaign in the election.

It wanted to nail Trump, which is weird because he is for intel torture, while Feinstein wrote a huge, revealing Senate report exposing and damning it.

But now the d.s. has to settle for nailing Trump for financial crimes.

The Barbarian said in post #80:

Trump just lied about "Obama spying on me."

Why do you say that? How do you know?

Have you seen every FISA warrant issued?

Also, how is spying on Trump's associates not spying on him?

For example, imagine that the d.s. got warrants to spy on every member of your family, but not you. Would you be okay with that? Would you feel safe from government intrusion into your life?
 
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jmldn2 said in post #81:

There is a "Deep State" and it is all about unseating a president it did not want to be elected.

Exactly right. And it could very well succeed. For it has untrammeled powers.

jmldn2 said in post #81:

That Deep State is not for the good of the country but for the good of those who want to destroy this Republic and all that it stands for.

No, exactly the opposite, in the minds of those in the d.s.

That is, they are all about "national security", wanting to totally protect the Republic in every way possible.

But their mistake is in thinking that they can do this by turning the country into a police state.

That is, they will mistakenly destroy a free country in their sincere desire to protect it.

jmldn2 said in post #81:

I am looking forward to the Deep State and its followers being routed out and brought to justice.

Note that will never ever happen (until the Second Coming), for there are no levers of power to do so.

For example, the Deep State, also called the Security State, never has to answer to the People in Congress because they can say that their activities are too secret to reveal even to the top members of Congress, even when these members ask for documents related to a specific, possibly-unlawful activity of the Security State which has become known to them. Most of the unlawful activities of the Security State never become known to anyone in Congress. For the Security State often operates in complete darkness. And this could give rise to rogue elements within U.S. intelligence who perform horrible, illegal acts without ever being held to account, even by their own agencies, who are not even aware of everything that their own agents are doing. Intelligence agencies are the most evil, dangerous things that have ever been invented, after nuclear weapons. JFK came to realize this, and was going to shut the CIA down.

Also, the Security State, or Deep State, is "Deep" not only with regard to the depths of its secrecy and evil, but also in the sense that it never changes, but abides for decades, as presidential administration after administration passes away above it, and top Congressional leaders regularly change above it with the changes in the political-party control of Congress. So the Security State is ultimately untouchable, which makes it so extremely dangerous to the civil liberties of the People, and even to the lives of some individual citizens, including some in high office. The Security State stonewalls the People and tells them to just trust it. But democracy cannot be based on blind trust, but must be based on full accountability and transparency. That is, every part of a democratic government must be accountable to the People for every action that it takes. Otherwise, the People are under an unaccountable tyranny.

Also, the Security State thinks that it is protecting "national security", but what it has done is set everything up for the future Antichrist's total surveillance and subjugation of everyone (Revelation 13:4-18).
 
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jmldn2

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Exactly right. And it could very well succeed. For it has untrammeled powers.



No, exactly the opposite, in the minds of those in the d.s.

That is, they are all about "national security", wanting to totally protect the Republic in every way possible.

But their mistake is in thinking that they can do this by turning the country into a police state.

That is, they will mistakenly destroy a free country in their sincere desire to protect it.



Note that will never ever happen (until the Second Coming), for there are no levers of power to do so.

For example, the Deep State, also called the Security State, never has to answer to the People in Congress because they can say that their activities are too secret to reveal even to the top members of Congress, even when these members ask for documents related to a specific, possibly-unlawful activity of the Security State which has become known to them. Most of the unlawful activities of the Security State never become known to anyone in Congress. For the Security State often operates in complete darkness. And this could give rise to rogue elements within U.S. intelligence who perform horrible, illegal acts without ever being held to account, even by their own agencies, who are not even aware of everything that their own agents are doing. Intelligence agencies are the most evil, dangerous things that have ever been invented, after nuclear weapons. JFK came to realize this, and was going to shut the CIA down.

Also, the Security State, or Deep State, is "Deep" not only with regard to the depths of its secrecy and evil, but also in the sense that it never changes, but abides for decades, as presidential administration after administration passes away above it, and top Congressional leaders regularly change above it with the changes in the political-party control of Congress. So the Security State is ultimately untouchable, which makes it so extremely dangerous to the civil liberties of the People, and even to the lives of some individual citizens, including some in high office. The Security State stonewalls the People and tells them to just trust it. But democracy cannot be based on blind trust, but must be based on full accountability and transparency. That is, every part of a democratic government must be accountable to the People for every action that it takes. Otherwise, the People are under an unaccountable tyranny.

Also, the Security State thinks that it is protecting "national security", but what it has done is set everything up for the future Antichrist's total surveillance and subjugation of everyone (Revelation 13:4-18).


I know that God is in charge no matter what. I do, however, believe in the power of prayer. For those of us who truly care about our Republic and Constitution and how the Founding Fathers intended for this country to work, we must pray without ceasing. God is also just and I am comforted in believing He will punish those who would try and cause the unseating of this president (I also believe He allowed Trump to be elected) and the destroying of the Republic. I believe in good over evil, love over hate, and that is what I pray for this president and our nation every single day.
 
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The Barbarian

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Note that the d.s. warned Senator Feinstein about her Chinese mole,

You've been misled. The Chinese made an attempt to recruit a driver employed by Feinstein's office who had no access to classified material. Apparently, they never succeeded. On the other hand, Pappadopoulos was actively seeking cooperation with the Russians and boasted about what he had done during a drinking session.

so why didn't it warn Trump about potential problems with his staff and Russia?

Because they had reason to believe other members of the Trump campaign were compromised as well. Turns out, they were right.

The answer is because five-eyes' intel was set against Trump from the start.

Trump always plays the victim card when one of his crooks gets caught. Why enable behavior like that? Fact is, the FBI went to a judge to get a warrant to further investigate. One of the key parts of the deep state is the check on unlimited power in any one branch. This infuriates Trump who seems to have actually believed that he could just use the justice department as his personal instrument of revenge.

It hoped to wait and get a "smocking gun" showing Trump himself colluding with Putin with regard to Russia's influence campaign in the election.

One of the benefits of paranoia, is it gives one the ability to read minds.

It wanted to nail Trump, which is weird because he is for intel torture, while Feinstein wrote a huge, revealing Senate report exposing and damning it.

To people of Trump's mindset, it's incomprehensible that a government official might do his duty, regardless of his personal preferences. But as you indicated, that's what happened.

Barbarian observes:
Trump just lied about "Obama spying on me."

Why do you say that? How do you know?

Because he had no evidence whatsoever for that claim. His usual M.O.

Have you seen every FISA warrant issued?

Don't have to. But there is a public record for one issued as the result of one of Trump's criminal underlings admitting collusion while drunk.

Also, how is spying on Trump's associates not spying on him?

As you know, a criminal investigation, which has been approved by a judge is not "spying." And of course, it's possible for Trump to employ a criminal without being a criminal himself. That looks increasingly unlikely, but he's entitled to a presumption of innocence.

For example, imagine that the d.s. got warrants to spy on every member of your family, but not you. Would you be okay with that?

No warrant to "spy" was issued. So moot point. If they convinced a judge there was probable cause, why would any honest person not want it to happen?

Would you feel safe from government intrusion into your life?

I worry about that most of the time anyway. But one of the legitimate uses of government power is to get crooks. This time, it worked. They got several.
 
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jmldn2

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Why do you think any of that? Based on what evidence?

Are you paying attention to what has happened to the media in this country? Are you paying attention to what the Democratic party has dissolved into? Have you seen the corruption in the past two years within our highest law in the land?
 
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jmldn2

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If the Deep State wants rid of Trump, isn't that a good thing?
If the Deep State is anti-Trump sign me up.

I value and respect women.
I care about truth and honesty.
I think marriage and family is important in word AND deed.
I recognise that sowing chaos everywhere is not good.
I value the rule of law and due process.
I am concerned about the plight, health, and livelihood of my fellow countrymen and those of my allies and enemies.
All those things are anti-Trump.


Are you an American? You value rule of law yet you support the unseating of a lawfully elected president? You support a deep state having that kind of power over our Republic? See that's what I'm talking about. Those who hate this president would rather see such actions perpetrated than to see America go forth renewed and replenished. Oh the power of hate is strong among the resisters..
 
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The Barbarian

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Are you paying attention to what has happened to the media in this country?

Polarized. Breeds paranoia and right wing conspiracy theories.

Are you paying attention to what the Democratic party has dissolved into?

Against their own efforts, they seem to have become the majority party in America. To be fair, the alternative was pretty unsavory.

Have you seen the corruption in the past two years within our highest law in the land?

Some of it. Meuller hasn't finished yet. Be patient.

Are you an American? You value rule of law yet you support the unseating of a lawfully elected president?

That's part of the law. The deep state built into the Constitution makes it virtually impossible for a president to become a dictator.

You support a deep state having that kind of power over our Republic?

The law of the land. It makes it pretty much impossible for a president to become a dictator.

Those who hate the Constitution would rather see such actions perpetrated than to see the criminals brought to justice.
 
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Tom 1

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Are you paying attention to what has happened to the media in this country? Are you paying attention to what the Democratic party has dissolved into? Have you seen the corruption in the past two years within our highest law in the land?

Do you have some more specific examples of what you mean?
 
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The Barbarian

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Are you an American? You value rule of law yet you support the unseating of a lawfully elected president?

Turns out even presidents are subject to the law. If they betray us, we can impeach them. That's what the law is all about. The founders wrote the deep state into the Constitution to prevent any one person taking control of the government.

The deep state is what has kept Trump from jailing his opponents, seizing guns without due process, and many other crooked things. That's what it's for.

You support a deep state having that kind of power over our Republic?

It's the law of the land. The highest authority.
 
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jmldn2 said in post #88:

I know that God is in charge no matter what.

Amen, and that brought to mind Daniel 4:25c: "the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will". This means that the human rulers of the world are ultimately determined by God: "the powers that be are ordained of God" (Romans 13:1c). This can include God's judgment against sinful nations (cf. Isaiah 3:12).

It can also include God's mercy (2 Peter 3:9b). For example, Trump's election could have been a miracle from God to delay the coming of the future Antichrist's social policies in the U.S. for a few years, whereas Hillary would have set them up perfectly. She even said something like: "There are some people who will have to change their beliefs", in the sense that Christians, from the point of view of "political correctness", have to change their beliefs against homosexuality and abortion. Trump, on the other hand, has done the exact opposite. For example, he recently removed Obama-era rules which required Christians in the medical field to support abortions.

Trump's election might be thought of as a "Jonah 3 Option", in that God showed mercy to the ancient city of Nineveh at the time of Jonah 3, even though Nineveh, the capital of the Assyrian empire, would still eventually be destroyed later on (Zephaniah 2:13).

For in the U.S., the "Jonah 3 Option" could be followed in only a couple of years from now by an "Athaliah Option", that is, a President Kamala Harris who will very calmly and smoothly usher in a thoroughly anti-Christian, yet "politically correct" agenda at the federal level. Or, a warring President Elizabeth Warren could do so, with gusto. Or they could join together, with one as President and the other as Vice President.

Also, before that, Trump and his security and military advisors in the next couple of years may inadvertently help to prepare the way geopolitically and militarily for the future Antichrist.

Après Trump, le déluge.

Also, if Trump, by the efforts of liberals, is somehow legally thrown out of office before his term is over, or if he is violently removed by a radical group like Antifa, it is unclear if the Democrats will be any better off under a President Pence. For while he can sometimes seem like Milquetoast, he has a spine of iron. He is a fulfillment of Teddy Roosevelt's dictum to: "Speak softy, but carry a big stick", so that Democrats will rue the day that they get rid of Trump before his term is over. Also, after the Trump/Pence term is over, do the Democrats really want to have to deal with the possibility of a future Presidential-candidate Christie, who could pull a Teddy vs. Jimmy at the Republican convention in 2020 and succeed? For Christie could eat-alive any Democratic candidate, so long as he is able to continually project to the general population his basic niceness and common sense, instead of a basic meanness and irritability.

Also, it is suspicious that Trump's enemies are now trying to shame him into going overseas to visit the troops in combat situations. It is like they are planning to do something bad to him over there. So he needs to resist going over there at all costs.
 
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The Barbarian said in post #89:

Pappadopoulos was actively seeking cooperation with the Russians and boasted about what he had done during a drinking session.

A drinking session with who? Also, how was his wanting to get email dirt on Clinton from Russia any different than Clinton actually getting dossier dirt on Trump "from Russia"?

The Barbarian said in post #89:

. . . one of Trump's criminal underlings admitting collusion while drunk.

Was he charged with "collusion"? How long did he serve in prison?

Also, has anyone in Trump's orbit been charged with "collusion"?

If not, why not?

The Barbarian said in post #89:

[Re: Why didn't the d.s. warn Trump regarding Papadopoulos and Russia?]

. . . they had reason to believe other members of the Trump campaign were compromised as well.

Then why didn't they even more urgently warn Trump like they warned Feinstein?

The Barbarian said in post #89:

This infuriates Trump who seems to have actually believed that he could just use the justice department as his personal instrument of revenge.

You mean like how the d.s. went after a whistleblower regarding Clinton Foundation pay-to-play, and refuses to hand over related documents to Congress?

Why is the d.s. protecting her?

How long do you think that she (or almost any other politician) would stand up to the same level of d.s. scrutiny that Trump is undergoing? (Or would too many people "commit suicide" during such an investigation?)

This is a case of selective prosecution.

Why?

*******

The Barbarian said in post #93:

Breeds paranoia and right wing conspiracy theories.

What about the left-wing conspiracy theory of "collusion"?

The Barbarian said in post #93:

Meuller hasn't finished yet. Be patient.

For what? A charge of "collusion"?

Also, was there collusion with regard to Uranium One? Or do people just pay $500,000 for one speech without expecting to play?
 
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The Barbarian

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It can also include God's mercy (2 Peter 3:9b). For example, Trump's election could have been a miracle from God to delay the coming of the future Antichrist's social policies in the U.S. for a few years,

You think Trump became president because God wanted to correct his scheduling error? Seriously?
 
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The Barbarian said in post #98:

You think Trump became president because God wanted to correct his scheduling error?

No, there was no error. Trump was part of the plan from the start. But without him, Hillary would have initiated the Antichrist's social policies.

Compare 2 Thessalonians 2:6, which refers to a powerful angel of God (not Trump, but possibly Michael the archangel) who is preventing the Antichrist (not Hillary or anyone else from the U.S.) from coming into world power until the preordained time.
 
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No, there was no error. Trump was part of the plan from the start.

So why did He have to step in to fix things then?

But without him, Hillary would have initiated the Antichrist's social policies.

You know, it's blasphemous to try to make God a part of your political party.
 
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