Did the Obama Administration spy on Trump?

[Seventeen76]

As you learned, surveillance is an investigation.

Nope. It's an investigative tool. Part of the investigation. NOT the same thing. Thats why you need a separate warrant.

But as you learned, that's not why the investigation began. That was because earlier, a Trump staffer made a tipsy admission to a diplomat, who passed the information on.

Correct. Not the surveillance.

Nope. Reade it again. I pointed out that he found no criminal act on her part.
Barbarian's statements:
As you know, he merely said that there was no evidence she committed a crime.
As you learned, Comey never said that Clinton commited any crime.

You're not so good at this. Those are two different statements.
A. Absolutely untrue. Google the official statement where he blatantly says, "Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes..."

B. True. He did not specifically say she committed a crime. He said there was EVIDENCE of a crime. Because she wasn't indicted, innocent until proven guilty, she didnt 'commit a crime'. Good lawyer speak. It doesn't nullify A.

 

[The Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that surveillance is an investigation)

Nope. It's an investigative tool.

I don't think personal definitions are going to get you out of this.

As for committing crimes...you changed your wording. Initially you implied that Comey flat out STATED that she committed no criminal act.

Barbarian chuckles:
Nope. Read it again. I pointed out that he found no criminal act on her part.

Barbarian's statements:
As you know, he merely said that there was no evidence she committed a crime.

As you learned, Comey never said that Clinton committed any crime.

You're not so good at this.

It was easy to refute your false accusation.

Those are two different statements.

Yep. Both true.

You tried to weasel out of with this...

Google the official statement where he blatantly says, "Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes..."

"Potential violations" Take that to court and see what the judge says.

(Seventeen76 finally admits)

He did not specifically say she committed a crime.

Thank you. Was that so hard?

In fact, he never said she committed a crime at all. There was no evidence that she committed a crime. It's like saying because there is evidence of potential obstruction of justice in Trump's communications with Manafort while he was indicted, we should toss Trump in jail. "Potential" merely says "he might have done it." That's not evidence that he did do it.

 

[Seventeen76]

Barbarian's statements:
As you know, he merely said that there was no evidence she committed a crime.

FALSE-never said that.

As you learned, Comey never said that Clinton committed any crime.

TRUE-he's an investigator, not a prosecutor. he would never use that language.

No matter how much you stomp and insist A is true, Comey explicitly said the contrary.

"Potential violations" Take that to court and see what the judge says.

Well, we can all see that the specifics legal merits of this whole discussion are WAAAAYYY beyond your comprehension. You don't seem to understand the difference between investigators and prosecutors and judges and that's why you conflate the terms evidence, guilt, crime, etc. Comey's job isnt to declare guilt or innocence...that's why he purposely steers clear of using the terms innocent or guilty or crime. You and your biased sources include those terms out of ignorance and/or to confuse naive readers like yourself.

The EVIDENCE of a crime that Comey specifically claimed did exist in his final statement is precisely what investigators look for to recommend indictment....THEN WE GO TO COURT TO SEE WHAT THE JUDGE SAYS!

That's why Comey's bizarre claim that they were NOT recommending indictment "because it had never been done before" was so shocking.

It only makes sense now that we see he lied under oath about leaking memos and since, in the last couple years, we've discovered the whole justice system has been filled with rotten lifetime partisans pulling for Hillary.

He did what a narcissist would do.
He did Hillary a solid.
But he also covered his butt and made sure we knew he wasnt a moron..that he DID see the evidence.

 

[Seventeen76]

(Barbarian notes that surveillance is an investigation)

Note that the Dept. of Justice manual specifically addresses surveillance IN THE CONTEXT of an investigation BECAUSE THEY ARENT THE SAME THING.
The investigation has to be authorized BEFORE any surveillance can be requested.

Title 9 Criminal Code-9-7.010 - INTRODUCTION
This chapter contains Department of Justice policy on the use of electronic surveillance. The Federal electronic surveillance statutes (commonly referred to collectively as "Title III") are codified at 18 U.S.C. § 2510, et seq. Because of the well-recognized intrusive nature of many types of electronic surveillance, especially wiretaps and "bugs," and the Fourth Amendment implications of the government's use of these devices in the course of its investigations, the relevant statutes (and related Department of Justice guidelines) provide restrictions on the use of most electronic surveillance, including the requirement that a high-level Department official specifically approve the use of many of these types of electronic surveillance prior to an Assistant United States Attorney obtaining a court order authorizing interception.

1. The affidavit of an "investigative or law enforcement officer" of the United States who is empowered by law to conduct investigations of, or to make arrests for, offenses enumerated in 18 U.S.C. § 2516(1) or (3) (which, for any application involving the interception of electronic communications, includes any Federal felony offense), with such affidavit setting forth the facts of the investigation that establish the basis for those probable cause (and other) statements required by Title III to be included in the application;
   
   A completed Title III cover sheet that includes the signature of a supervising attorney who reviewed and approved the Title III papers. As of March 19, 2012, Department policy requires that all Title III submissions be approved by a supervising attorney other than the attorney submitting the application. That supervisory attorney must sign the Title III cover sheet, demonstrating that he or she has reviewed the affidavit, application, and draft order included in the submission packet, and that, in light of the overall investigative plan for the matter, and taking into account applicable Department policies and procedures, he or she supports the request and approves of it.

 

[The Barbarian]

The investigation has to be authorized BEFORE any surveillance can be requested.

Seeing as surveillance is an investigation, that makes sense. Look, we all get that you really, really want this to come out differently than it did. It's just not going to.

Hillary lost. At some point, you're going to have to get over it. Seeing as Ivanka got herself into a mess doing the same things after Clinton's server was in the news, perhaps you should be grateful.

It's not much, but it's better than nothing. Take some comfort in that.

 

[Seventeen76]

Nice try. Go ahead and try reading the code. Demonstrable clear that sureveillance is a TOOL for which an existing investigation can apply for, but they are two seperate entities. The general plan and justification of the investigation has to be set and presented as part of the warrant application.

They arent the same. SMH.

Trumps a douche so if something turns up let him have it. But so farnothing and meanwhile all the actual evidence points to the DNC criminal syndicate and crickets...
I just call it how I see it.

The truth is that after 2 years of this unprecedented special investigation wothout a specific alleged crime, Meuller has absolutely nothing demostrating collauin between Trump and Russia. (He does has evidence of Hillary and Russia colluding, but we’ll see if theres a new investigation.)

Having nothing, Meuller is resorting to typical sleazy legal desperation tactics. You drag a bunch of underlings into a room for 70 hours of random questions, and then match them up against 5-10 years of random emails, documents etc. You find a couple inconsistencies and threaten people with prison of they dont tell you what you ‘want to know’.

If nothing else, Meuller can now say ‘I woulda caught Trump but all these guys are lying!!

 

[The Barbarian]

The truth is that after 2 years of this unprecedented special investigation wothout a specific alleged crime, Meuller has absolutely nothing demostrating collauin between Trump and Russia.

Other than getting a guilty plea from Trump's national security advisor for lying about his Russian contacts, and...
In reality, as exhaustively documented by the Moscow Project, there were extensive communications between people in Trump’s orbit and Russian government figures or others who had, or purported to have, close ties to the Putin regime.


Some of this communication — including Michael Cohen’s January 2016 email to Dmitry Peskov and Ivanka Trump’s October 2015 exchange with Dmitry Klokov — was ostensibly about efforts to construct a Trump-branded building in Moscow. Some of it, including the various escapades of George Papadopoulos and Carter Page, involved relatively peripheral players in Trumpworld, who didn’t have strong pre-campaign ties to Trump or play a post-campaign role in the administration.


But some of it was quite high-level and explicitly about the campaign. Donald Trump Jr., for example, took a meeting with the deputy governor of Russia’s central bank while attending the National Rifle Association’s annual convention in Kentucky in May 2016. The meeting was arranged by a US conservative activist named Paul Erickson, who got in touch with senior Trump campaign aide Rick Dearborn to set it up, explicitly as a step toward creating back-channel communications between Russia and the campaign.


And, of course, Trump Jr., along with Jared Kushner and Paul Manafort, attended the infamous Trump Tower meeting whose purpose was explicitly described as “part of Russia and its support for Mr Trump” and was said to involve incriminating information about Hillary Clinton.
https://www.vox.com/2018/6/11/17438386/trump-russia-collusion

This, remember after Trump told the American people that he had not connections with Russians.

(He does has evidence of Hillary and Russia colluding,

Not so far. She lost the election. Get over it.

Having nothing, Meuller is resorting to typical sleazy legal desperation tactics.

Would you like the list of perps he's had indicted, convicted or plead guilty so far? C'mon.

 

[jmldn2]

It is my belief that Obama not only spied on the Trump administration but that he is still working behind the scene to unseat Trump. I firmly believe in the Deep State.

 

[jgarden]

Trump Claims His Campaign Was 'Spied' On. Here Are the Facts
President Donald Trump is mounting an increasingly aggressive attack on investigations into Russian meddling in the 2016 election, charging that the Obama Administration actively spied on his campaign.

The FBI is tasked with keeping the Russian Embassy and its motley crew of "diplomats" under surveillance - its not the Bureau's fault that "The Donald" and his surrogates decided to "collude" with them!

"The Donald" accused the Obama Administration of "wiretapping" his phones at Trump Towers - despite appointing his own Attorney General, Assistant Attorney General General and Director of the FBI, where's proof to confirm this President's accusation?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I firmly believe in the Deep State.

I believe in my heart that everybody knows that but, some just will not admit it.

M-Bob

 

[jmldn2]

I believe in my heart that everybody knows that but, some just will not admit it.

M-Bob

For those who will not acknowledge it, there is danger.

 

[jgarden]

It is my belief that Obama not only spied on the Trump administration but that he is still working behind the scene to unseat Trump. I firmly believe in the Deep State.

Believing in unsubstantiated conspiracy theories is no substitute for the facts!

FACT: 16 of Trumps associates are known to have had direct contact with Russians, and yet not one made an effort to report any of them to the FBI - what exactly was being planned "behind the scenes?"

 

[Bible2+]

What do you think was being planned, and based on what facts?

 

[The Barbarian]

It is my belief that Obama not only spied on the Trump administration but that he is still working behind the scene to unseat Trump. I firmly believe in the Deep State.

Your belief has no effect whatever on reality. As you learned, that didn't happen. Trump did have some criminals in his campaign and administration, and they did get investigated and caught. Obama didn't approve any of the investigations; courts did so legally. The deep state makes it difficult for a president to just go after someone he dislikes.

The founders intentionally made the state deep in order to make it extremely difficult for any would-be autocrat to take complete power. Trump first collided with the deep state when he tried to have Hillary Clinton arrested. His advisors had to explain to him that the Justice Department does not work for him, and he can't just order citizens investigated or arrested.

He'd much prefer a shallow state like Russia, where Putin can merely issue orders and see it done.

Thank God we have a deep state where no single person can run everything.

 

[The Barbarian]

What do you think was being planned, and based on what facts?

Patience. Meuller is sorting it out. So far, he's only got Trump's campaign manager, lawyer, and national security advisor, and a mess of smaller fry. More to come.

Be patient. It's on the way.

 

[jmldn2]

The left have no time to serve the country. They are so wrapped up in unseating this president. Why would they consider the reason they are in the government? There are going to be some very disappointed people when things do not turn out as they have predicted.

 

[tulc]

The left have no time to serve the country.

Or they do and you simply don't agree with them.

They are so wrapped up in unseating this president.

uhmm...from what I can tell? He's doing a great job of doing that himself, so I'm not sure "the left" (who ever that is) has to do anything more then accurately pointing out what President Trump does/says. Nothing more seems required.

Why would they consider the reason they are in the government?

Could it be that they're just doing what they think they should be doing?

There are going to be some very disappointed people when things do not turn out as they have predicted.

I think the Republicans will manage to get over it? shoot, in a year or two most of them will be pretending not to have ever even voted for President Trump! It'll be all a plot hatched by the Democrats to make the Republicans look bad. that seems to be how a lot of the "Party of Personal Responsibility" takes responsibility for things. It reminds me of this cartoon:

tulc(loves old political cartoons)

 

[The Barbarian]

The left have no time to serve the country. They are so wrapped up in unseating this president.

It's becoming increasingly obvious that if the president is unseated, it will be self-inflicted. Nothing anyone can do is as bad as the damage Trump has done to himself.

Why would they consider the reason they are in the government?

To uphold the Constitution. It's why so many of Trump's underlings are going to prison or are turning state's evidence to avoid prison.

There are going to be some very disappointed people when things do not turn out as they have predicted.

I believe that's already happened, but seems likely that more of it is to come.

 

[Bible2+]

The Barbarian said in post #74:

The deep state makes it difficult for a president to just go after someone he dislikes.

But note that it is able to just go after a presidential candidate it dislikes.

The Barbarian said in post #74:

Thank God we have a deep state where no single person can run everything.

But where it can do things without any accountability to the People whatsoever, which is completely opposed to what the Founders intended.

*******

The Barbarian said in post #75:

Be patient. It's on the way.

What do you believe is on the way? And what facts do you base your belief on?

The Barbarian said in post #75:

Meuller is sorting it out. So far, he's only got Trump's campaign manager, lawyer, and national security advisor, and a mess of smaller fry.

What has Mueller got them on?

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
The deep state makes it difficult for a president to just go after someone he dislikes.

But note that it is able to just go after a presidential candidate it dislikes.

As you have seen, it didn't go after Trump, but only after criminals in his campaign. Trump just lied about "Obama spying on me." But the courts did authorize surveillance of criminals who were in contact with Russia and of criminals who paid off women so they wouldn't harm Trump's election hopes. That's the way our Constitution works.

On the other hand, the deep state also prevented a corrupt president from just going after people he hated. Trump was angered and dismayed to learn that he couldn't just have Hillary Clinton jailed.

But where it can do things without any accountability to the People whatsoever,

Trump learned that he couldn't do that, after all. Trump bragged that as soon as he became president, Hillary Clinton would be jailed, which is completely opposed to what the Founders intended.

Barbarian observes:
Be patient. It's on the way.

What do you believe is on the way?

The ending of the investigation, and the triumph of the Constitution and the deep state against would-be authoritarians.

And what facts do you base your belief on?

He's already got convictions or guilty pleas on some of them. More to come, i think.

What has Mueller got them on?

Lying about contacts with Russia, violating compaign laws. Payoffs to hide misconduct. Stuff like that.