Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

[ICONO'CLAST]

Give me quotes of what Joyce Meyer has said that are not consistent with Scripture.

I do not carry lists of them, but a google search lists these;
joyce meyers heresies - Yahoo Video Search Results

"What Should You Believe?"

"What Should You Believe?" is the title to chapter 4 (page 35) and the chapter I will focus on. Since the book's title implies that its purpose is to help someone to make "the most important decision (they) will ever make," we can assume that this chapter will discuss the facts whereby they may make an intelligent decision.

Joyce writes, "During that time He entered hell, where you and I deserved to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there. ...no plan was too extreme. ... Jesus paid on the cross and in hell." (Underlining in the original) On page 36, she continues....... God rose up from His throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless Son of God, 'Let Him go.' Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus. ...He was resurrected from the dead - the first born-again man. (Underlining in the original.)

The first subchapter heading is, "WHAT HAPPENED ON THE CROSS?" (Caps and underlining in the original) The heading is similar to Kenneth Copeland's infamous tape, "What Happened From The Cross To The Throne" (I 984) in which he goes into great detail about the subject. Copeland apparently borrowed the title from E. W. Kenyon's book by the same name as well as the same heretical theme. Joyce no doubt has been greatly influenced by both these men. Both works are Charismatic "classics."

In this subchapter she writes, "His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserved to go. Remember in the very beginning of this, I said, 'When you die, only your body dies. The rest of you, your soul and spirit, goes either to heaven or hell."'

"There is no choice of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth I am presenting. You cannot go to heaven unless you believe with all your heart that Jesus took your place in hell." (Underlining added.)

On page 38 she claims, "Jesus went to hell for you." (Underlining in the original)

What she's just covered is the classical (and damnable) Word/Faith "Born-Again Jesus Gospel." It's been espoused by the likes of Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin, Fred Price, John Jacobs, Charles Capps, Benny Hinn, Jan Crouch, and (locally) David Crank just to name a few. It's usually presented under the guise of "revelation knowledge" given by the Holy Ghost and based upon Scripture. Odd how none of these folks give credit to the originators of this heresy but rather credit (in reality, blame) such blasphemy on the Holy Spirit.

Does this message have "the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes it" as Joyce implies. If so, it is the Gospel (Romans 1: 16). And if not, it is a "different gospel." (Galatians 1:6-9) Let's see for ourselves as good Bereans (Acts 17:1 1).

Let's start with the idea of Jesus in Hell. Charismatics, not understanding the Born-Again Jesus Gospel or its implications, try to make their case by saying, "Well of course Jesus went to Hell. Doesn't it say so somewhere in the book of Acts?"

While it is true that Jesus went to Hell, the real area of attention needs to be narrowed down to this: Did He go there to pay for our sins? Payment is the issue, not visitation. What kind of payment? According to Joyce and others, it's the same kind of payment that took place on the cross! Perhaps even better.

"He paid the price there."

"Jesus paid on the cross and in hell." (Underlining in the original)

"...Jesus took your place in hell."

"Jesus went to hell for you." (Underlining in the original)

Lost And Found Deity

Paul not only warned the Corinthian church of accepting "another gospel," he warned them of accepting "another Jesus." (2 Corinthians 11:4) On page 38, Joyce writes,

"For three days He was alone paying for our sins as "only a man." (underlining in the original)

Here again she regurgitates the teachings of Kenyon and Copeland. It's all part of the myth of Jesus losing His Deity on the cross, going to Hell as a mere man, being reborn in Hell, receiving back His Deity and thus becoming God once again. Since we are reborn, we too (they reason) become "little Gods" (which she does not go into in her book).

You would think that Hebrews 13:8, which Charismatics are so fond of quoting, would prevent this sort of heresy since it says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever." Charismatics frequently quote it but do not read out of it what is there (exegesis) but rather read into it what is not there (eisegesis).

Instead of reading that He is immutable (unchangeable,) they read it to mean that "Jesus Christ does the same (things) yesterday and today and forever." Whenever they quote this verse, its usually in reference to healing and miracles. This is just another example of "anointed" Scripture twisting.

And no, Jesus does not do the same things today that He did in the past. Let Charismatics provide just one person who having been born blind can now see with 20/20 vision.

It is heresy to say that at some point in time, God ceased being Triune in nature. When the nature of Jesus is changed, "another Jesus" is produced. Keep in mind that the Gospel is a Who and a what: Who is Jesus and what did He do. The theology of the Word/Faith movement, as clearly spelled out in Joyce's book, has both "another Jesus" and "another gospel." Lest Charismatics think this a minor point, let me point out that the majority of all cults have "another Jesus." Not good company to be in.

Joyce Meyer's False Gospel

Joyce Meyer | CARM.org
Following is a list of quotes from Joyce Meyer, along with responses.

1. Jesus stopped being the Son of God: "He could have helped himself up until the point where he said I commend my spirit into your hands, at that point he couldn’t do nothing for himself anymore. He had become sin, he was no longer the Son of God. He was sin." (http://storage.carm.org/joycemeyer/joyce-meyer-Jesus-became-sin-stopped-being-son-of-God.mp3)
   1. Response: This is heresy. Jesus did not ever stop being the son of God. Essentially what she is saying is that Jesus stopped being divine, the eternal son, second person of the Trinity. This is an attack on the very nature of Christ and it is a dangerous false teaching. Joyce Meyer needs to repent and retract this statement. There is no place in Scripture that says Jesus stopped being the son of God. She's adding to the word of God and placing in the hearts and minds of listeners false doctrine.
2. Jesus was born again: "The minute that blood sacrifice was accepted Jesus was the first human being that was ever born again," (
   )
   1. Response: This is just plain wrong. Being born again means to be saved from the wrath of God for a person's sins (Eph. 2:1-3), to have a new birth (John 3:3), and to be regenerated (2 Cor. 5:17). Mrs. Meyer is simply wrong biblically. Why does she teach this? It can only be because she has bought into many of the errors of the Positive Confession movement where many say that Jesus lost his divine nature, went to hell, finished the atonement in hell, and was born again! These are serious errors.
3. Jesus paid for our sins in hell: "He became our sacrifice and died on the cross. He did not stay dead. He was in the grave three days. During that time he entered hell, where you and I deserve to go (legally) because of our sin. He paid the price there.” (The most important decision you'll ever make, by Joyce Meyer, second printing, may 1993, page 35)
   • Response: This is blatantly wrong. Jesus did not pay the price of our redemption in hell. He paid the price on the cross. It was finished on the cross when he said, "It is finished," (John 19:30). Also, consider the following verses:
   • Col. 1:20, "and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven."
   • Col. 2:14, "having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
   • 1 Pet. 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed."
4. Jesus went to hell in our place and was tormented: "Jesus paid on the cross and went to hell in my place. Then as God had promised, on the third day Jesus rose from the dead. The scene in the spirit realm went something like this: God rose up from his throne and said to demon powers tormenting the sinless son of God, 'let him go.' Then the resurrection power of Almighty God went through hell and filled Jesus. On earth his grave where they had buried him was filled with light as the power of God filled his body. He was resurrected from the dead -- the first born again man." (The most important decision you'll ever make, by Joyce Meyer, second printing, may 1993, page 36)
   • Response: Where does she get this entirely fictitious dialogue between God and the demon powers? It is made up, not founded in scripture, and mistakenly assumes that Jesus went to hell, the place of torment and suffering after he died on the cross. The Bible does not teach any such thing. However, it does say that Jesus descended into the lower parts of the earth (Eph. 4:9). This can mean that Jesus was physically buried, or that Jesus went to Hades to inform those who had already died about who he was and what he did on the cross, or it can be referring to his incarnation as is contrasted with his ascending into heaven (Eph. 4:10). But there is simply no reason to believe that Jesus suffered in hell and finished the atonement there. See response to Quote 1.
5. If you don't believe Jesus went to hell, you cannot be saved: "His spirit went to hell because that is where we deserve to go… There is no hope of anyone going to heaven unless they believe this truth." (The most important decision you'll ever make, by Joyce Meyer, second printing, may 1993, page 37)
   1. Response: This is an amazingly bad statement on her part. She is saying that you cannot be saved from your sins unless you believe that Jesus went to hell where we deserve to go. This is a false modification of the gospel which is found in 1 Cor. 15:1-4and states that the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. Nowhere in scripture are we told to believe that Jesus suffered for us in hell or that he went there. This is not only wrong, it is heretical.
6. We are called little gods: "I was listening to a set of tapes by one man and he explained it like this..this kind of gets the point across...he said why do people have such a fit about God calling his creation, his creation, his man not his whole creation, but his man, little gods? If he's God what's he going to call them but the God kind? I mean if you as a human being have a baby you call it a human kind. If if [sic] cattle has another cattle they call it cattle kind. I mean what is God supposed to call 'em? Doesn't the Bible say we are created in his image? Now you understand I am not saying you are god with a capital G. That is not the issue here so don't go trying to stone me or yell blasphemy at me." "The Bible says right here John 10:34...'and Jesus answered is it not written in your law I say we are gods.' So men are called God's by the law..."(Joyce Meyer). (www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrP3OLCH9GI&feature=related)
   1. Response: In this clip she goes on to quote John 10:34 where Jesus says to the Pharisees "you are gods," which is a quote from Psalm 82:6, which is an imprecatory Psalm of condemnation for the unrighteous judges. Psalm 82:7 says, "nevertheless you will die like men." She then turned to Psalm 82 and went through it. The video stopped, so I do not know what she would have said about the next, all-important verse.
7. Joyce Meyer said she is not a sinner: "I am not poor. I am not miserable and I am not a sinner. That is a lie from the pit of hell. That is what I were and if I still was then Jesus died in vain. I'm going to tell you something folks. I didn't stop sinning until I finally got it through my thick head I wasn't a sinner anymore. And the religious world thinks that's heresy and they want to hang you for it. But the Bible says that I am righteous and I can't be righteous and be a sinner at the same time." (
   )
   1. Response: Mrs. Meyer needs a lesson in basic biblical theology. 1 John 1:8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Notice that John the apostle says "we." He includes himself with sinners. Also, Paul said in Rom. 7:19-20, 24, "For the good that I wish, I do not do; but I practice the very evil that I do not wish. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not wish, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me...24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?" Is Joyce Meyer better in Christian character than John and Paul? I think not. Mrs. Meyer fails to recognize her own sinfulness, and so mistakenly denies her own sinfulness. I can only conclude that this false teaching comes from pride because it certainly isn't biblical.
8. The host of hell were literally on Jesus and were laughing: "They were having the biggest party that had ever been had. They had my Jesus in the floor and they were standing on his back jumping up and down laughing. And he had become sin. Don't you think that God was pacing, wanting to put a stop to what was going on? All the host of hell were upon him. Upon him. Up on him. The angels were in agony. All the creation is groaning. All the host of hell was upon him. Up on him. They got on him. They got him down in the floor and got on him and they were laughing and mocking. Ha ha ha ha. You trusted God and look where you ended up. You thought he'd save you and get you off that cross. He didn't, ha ha ha." (
   )
   1. Response: Where did she get this - in the sacred Book of Joycemeyeronomy? It is certainly not in the Bible, and yet she has no problem teaching it as an authoritative truth. Does she not know that the Bible says not to exceed what is written (1 Cor. 4:6)? She has done exactly that. She is in grave error and has violated God's word that says that Jesus bore our sins in his body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) and finished the atonement on the cross (John 19:30) - not in hell at the hands of demons! There is no way demons were literally standing 'on' Jesus. Meyer is in gross error!
9. Joyce Meyer gets revelation knowledge: “The Bible can’t even find any way to explain this. Not really that is why you have got to get it by revelation. There are no words to explain what I am telling you. I have got to just trust God that he is putting it into your spirit like he put it into mine.” (http://storage.carm.org/audio/joycemeyer/joyce-meyer-revelation-knowledge.mp3)
   1. Response: Revelation knowledge? Is she on par with the apostles who received revelation knowledge from God himself? Or how about the Old Testament prophets? Does she, like them, also receive revelation knowledge from God? If so, how would we know if it were true or not? The answer is simple: we test what she says against Scripture, and it is obvious that she is getting a lot of things from somewhere else that contradict the word of God.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Earnest Contender
February 6, 2016 ·
THE DANGEROUS HERESIES OF JOYCE MEYER:

I often address false teachings individually, and not categorized by their proponents, (though I name names of the false teachers, both to prove what is being taught and to warn the unwary), but I feel it occasionally becomes necessary to address certain false teachers individually, with evidence of their many false teachings. In this article, I am addressing televangelist/author Joyce Meyer, because so many today are falling for her teachings and because she, more than most of the heretics on television, slickly blends truth with heresy, (often adding caveats in an attempt to qualify her heresy, though the caveats are logically inconsistent with the heresy).
In brief, Joyce Meyer, teaches the following serious false doctrines, (among others):

1) that “FAITH” is a “FORCE” with the power to create reality
2) the inherent “POWER OF WORDS”
3) the occult concept of the “POWER OF THOUGHTS”
4) the occult technique of “AUTOSUGGESTION,” (a.k.a. “Positive Affirmation,” a.k.a. “Positive Confession)
5) that at His crucifixion Jesus CEASED TO BE THE SON OF GOD, was then TORTURED BY DEMONS IN HELL for three days, and then became THE FIRST “BORN AGAIN” MAN
6) that WE CAN NEVER JUDGE ANYONE
7) that Jesus has already forgiven all of our FUTURE SINS
8) that we HUMANS ARE LITTLE “gods,” CREATED AS THE “GOD-KIND”

Below, I outline evidence of each of these heresies being taught by Meyers, with details:

1) Meyer teaches the occult doctrine that “FAITH” is a “FORCE” with the power to create reality:

In a sermon, Meyer states, “FAITH IS A POWERFUL FORCE that changes things, it does things… FAITH CREATES THINGS, and it changes things… FAITH IS A CREATIVE FORCE. IT ACTUALLY GOES OUT INTO THE SPIRIT REALM, when you pray, and you say, and you add that obedient action.” (sermon “Release Your Faith,” part 1https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNE0cF7OY7s, [@5:09 & 14:25], and part 2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5Oe6a-hFo [@0:30]).

In reality, “faith” is simply “belief” in something or someone, and is only as good as the object of our faith – Christians believe (have “faith”) in a powerful God, not in a powerful “faith” force.
Those proponents of the “faith force” doctrine who, for support, quote Jesus’ words in Mark 11:23-24, “For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them,” often forget that He prefaced this all, in verse 22, with “Have faith in God.” (Don’t believe the twisting of scripture by those Word Of Faith teachers, like Charles Capps, who want to change this verse’s meaning to “have the God Kind of Faith.” God has no need of “faith” – and who would He have “faith” in?) If “faith” were a power all on its own, it would not have to be placed in God to be effective, but we would all, saints and sinners, be powerful “gods” wielding our “force” of “faith.”
Likewise, those who pretend that Jesus’ words, “thy faith hath made thee whole,” (spoken to the woman with the issue of blood, Matthew 9:22, Luke 8:48), prove that “faith” has the power to heal, overlook the fact that the “virtue” had to flow from Jesus, (Luke 8:46), in whom she had faith. The “virtue” did not reside in her faith, but she believed He had the power to heal her.

2) Meyer teaches the metaphysical (New Thought) belief in the inherent “POWER OF WORDS”:
In the last above sermon [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS5Oe6a-hFo@0:49], Meyers says, “…WORDS ARE POWERFUL! And THEY GO OUT INTO THE SPIRIT REALM, AND THEY START RELEASING THE POWER OF GOD, and things begin to happen.”

In another sermon, Meyer said, “God created everything that we see with words. WORDS HAVE CREATIVE POWER, BUT THEY CAN ALSO CARRY DESTRUCTIVE POWER…” (sermon “Your Words Affect Your Future,” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSghkueRTds).

Meyer also said, “WORDS ARE CONTAINERS FOR POWER…THEY CONTAIN CREATIVE OR DESTRUCTIVE POWER,” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzlnFfvCeyc, @13:53)

(This is a major theme of hers, and she often quotes and misapplies Proverbs 18:21 in support of this false doctrine, (which it doesn’t truly support, see our article at https://www.facebook.com/EarnestContender/posts/279028155578665)):

3) Meyer teaches the mind-power, “POWER OF THOUGHTS,” doctrine, even quoting from New Thought author James Allen, and misapplying (as he does) Proverbs 23:7:

In her book “Power Thoughts,” Meyer wrote, “James Allen, a British philosopher around the turn of the twentieth century, said, ‘All that a man achieves and all that he fails to achieve is the direct result of his own thoughts:’ The way we think is far more powerful than we often realize and our thoughts impact every aspect of our existence, either positively or negatively.
…
“Proverbs 23:7 says, ‘For as he thinks in his heart, so is he.’ In other words, we become what we think.”

(Proverbs 23:7 is actually about hypocrisy, hiding what we think – NOT about becoming what we think, For more on James Allen and the misuse of this scripture, see our article at https://www.facebook.com/EarnestContender/posts/274074216074059:0.)

While Meyer follows this by writing, “Let me be clear that I am not saying that we can think into existence anything that we want,” James Allen, (whom she quoted for support), taught pretty much that concept, (he taught the Buddhist concept of karma, and that we all, (even newborn babies), cause all of the good or ill that comes into our lives), and Meyer takes the concept much further than our just thinking on good things.

4) Meyer teaches the occult technique of “AUTOSUGGESTION,” (a.k.a. “Positive Affirmation,” a.k.a. “Positive Confession), made famous by the French psychologist/pharmacist/hypnotist/metaphysician of the early 1900’s, Emile Coué, who claimed to have “healed” patients (psychosomatically) through “autosuggestion,” (per Wikipedia, “The application of [Coué’s] mantra-like conscious autosuggestion, 'Every day, in every way, I'm getting better and better'…is called Couéism or the Coué method,” (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89mile_Cou%C3%A9)):

Meyer wrote, “An affirmation to say everyday: The healing power of God is working in me right now. EVERY DAY I GET BETTER AND BETTER IN EVERY WAY,” (Joyce Meyer book, “I Dare You,” 2007) (http://www.beliefnet.com/…/8-Inspiring-Quotes-for-the-Sick.…).

Meyer even referred approvingly to Coué and his technique in her writings: “I heard the story of a doctor who was not a believer but who had discovered the power of speaking positive words. . .He had such marvelous results that people traveled from all over the world to avail themselves of his services,” (Oral Robert’s magazine “Miracles Now,” vol. 2, No. 5 Sept/Oct. 1998 issue, Joyce Meyer article entitled "Prophecy Your Own Future" (page 15), (http://alphaomegaoutrea.powweb.com/id48.html)). (Meyer’s protégé Joel Osteen also made multiple references to this same “doctor” and his famous autosuggestion mantra in his sermons, and in his 2012 book “I Declare,” pages x to xi, in the Introduction.)

5) Meyer taught the heresy, (in sermons and in her tracts), of Jesus’ atonement including His CEASING TO BE THE SON OF GOD, while He was supposedly TORTURED BY DEMONS IN HELL for three days, and then became THE FIRST “BORN AGAIN” MAN, and she insisted that if you don’t believe this happened you cannot be saved,
(https://carm.org/joyce-meyer).

This heresy, also known as “Jesus Died Spiritually” (JDS) doctrine, was originally from New Thought-leaning faith healer E.W. Kenyon, from whom Kenneth Hagin plagiarized it and brought it into his “Word Of Faith” movement, (http://thewordonthewordoffaithinfoblog.com/…/hagin_copied_…/). You can hear Meyer and other Word Of Faith heretics preaching this false doctrine here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFG7cXOLiQQ.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

6) Meyer teaches that WE CAN NEVER JUDGE ANYONE, (a convenient doctrine for anyone not wanting to be held accountable):
“We never have enough information to judge anyone…not one of us ever has enough information to judge anyone critically,” (sermon, “Don’t Be Too Quick to Judge,” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daf5QGsJKHk).

This doctrine of Meyer’s is contrary to scripture. Jesus said to “judge righteous judgment,” (John 7:24), and Paul, (who judged others, 1 Corinthians 5:3), told the Christians at Rome, “ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another,” (Romans 15:14).
However, this doctrine is in agreement with occult “preacher” Norman Vincent Peale, who wrote, “The Bible says quite clearly, ‘Judge not…’ (Matthew 7:1), and the reason behind this prohibition is plain. We never have all the information that would enable us to make an absolutely just judgment,” (“Positive Imaging,” 1982, pg. 118). Peale failed to mention that Matthew 7:1 was about HYPOCRITICAL judgment, and that Jesus gave instructions there for us to get ourselves right FIRST so that we may THEN help our brother in his error, (“Thou HYPOCRITE, FIRST cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and THEN shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye,” (vs. 5)), which, of course, requires righteous judgment.
7) Meyer teaches that once we first repent, Jesus has already forgiven not only our past sins, but all of our FUTURE SINS:
“Jesus loved me so much that HE NOT ONLY FORGAVE ALL MY SINS FROM THE PAST BUT ALSO LOOKED AHEAD AND FORGAVE ME FOR THOSE MOMENTS OF WEAKNESS WHEN I'D FAIL IN THE FUTURE. I don't have to allow Satan to sneak in with questions or unbelief, and you don't either,” (https://www.bible.com/…/199-promises-for-your-every…/day/162).

However, the Bible says it is our past sins that are forgiven:
“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God,” (Romans 3:25).
It also teaches that we have to repent again if/when we sin again:
“Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent,” (Revelations 2:5).
(For more on this, see our article “FUTURE SINS,” https://www.facebook.com/EarnestContender/posts/460182694129876.)

8) Meyer teaches the heresy that we HUMANS ARE LITTLE “gods,” CREATED AS THE “GOD-KIND,” misusing, (as Mormons and other occultists do), Jesus' quotation (in John 10:34) of Psalms 82:6:
“…I was listening to a set of tapes by one man, and he explained it like this, and I think this kinda gets the point across, he said, ‘You know, why do people have such a fit about God calling His creation, His creation, His ‘man,’ not His whole creation but His ‘man,’ little gods? If He’s God, what’s He gonna call’em but the Godkind?’ I mean, if you as a human being have a baby, you call it a ‘humankind.’ If, if cattle have another cattle, they call it ‘cattlekind.’ I mean, what’s God supposed to call us? Doesn’t the Bible say we’re created in His image? Now, you understand, I’m not sayin’ ‘You are God,’ with a capital ‘G’. That is not the issue here, so don’t go trying to stone me or yell blasphemy at me! The Bible says right here, John 10:34…’And Jesus answered, Is it not written in your law, ‘I said you are gods?’ little ‘g’.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrP3OLCH9GI&feature=related

Not rightly dividing scripture, Meyer does not understand the context of the words Jesus quoted, which are about men judging over others as “gods” in that sense (Psalms 82:1-2), but that these “gods” would “die like men, and fall like one of the princes,” (vs. 7), which is the fate of all false “gods,” (“The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens,” Jeremiah 10:11). Instead, Meyer invites us to view ourselves as “gods,” as she reasons that God’s “offspring” must surely be “God-kind,” (a common heresy in the Word Of Faith movement). Of course, it was this ambition to be “like the most High” that got Lucifer evicted from heaven, (Isaiah 14:12-15). (Note: If we were already “gods” by virtue of being created in God’s image, then the Serpent’s temptation of Eve with the lure, “ye shall be as gods,” (Genesis 3:5), would be meaningless, and no temptation at all.)

Going even further than just teaching that we are little “gods,” Joyce Meyer Ministries Facebook page has advocated (in a post on 11/09/15) that we should all presume to steal God’s identity as the “I Am”:
“If you listen to the devil, all you're ever going to hear is what you're not, you're not, you're not…. But isn't this interesting? All we see in the Bible is, I Am, I Am, I Am.”

All too many of her readers agreed with this, and reveled in applying His self-identifying (as the eternal, timeless God) words to themselves, (with some writing such things as, “I Am, I Am, I Am...” and “I Am That I Am All That I Am,” and one recognizing this as a doctrine of New Ager Wayne Dyers, “Thank you, and I was just listening to Dr. Wayne Dyers CDs titled Wishful Thinking, where he states you must believe in and say a lot of I Ams”). Thankfully, a few wise readers understood the blasphemous indications of this affirmation, and wrote, “JESUS is the Great I Am,” and “Don’t forget that is the GOD of creation saying I AM, not meant to be read as you and I are the I AM,” (referring to Jehovah God telling Moses, “I AM THAT I AM… Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you,” (Exodus 3:14), and Jesus identifying Himself as that one God in flesh, “Before Abraham was, I am,” (John 8:58)).

This is serious, deadly heresy. One must remember that the Apostles refused to be identified as gods, (Acts 10:25-26; 14:11-15), and God slew Herod for simply allowing others to call him a “god,” (Acts 12:21-23), and God has pronounced judgment on those who presume to say, “I am a God,” (Ezekiel 28:1-10).

• JOYCE MEYER'S TEACHINGS ARE RECOGNIZED AS OCCULTIC BY THOSE IN THE OCCULT

Joyce Meyer may be fooling many Christians, but she is recognized as teaching occult concepts by many who are into the New Age and occult practices. The following three examples illustrate the connection/identification made by people familiar with such concepts:

A) A Customer Review, on Amazon’s site, of Joyce Meyer’s 2007 book "The Power of Simple Prayer: How to Talk with God about Everything," at http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Simple-Prayer-…/…/0446531960:

“Where some authors fail to fully explain prayer or MANIFESTATION, Joyce Meyer does a great job of explaining the biblical processes of accepting or living by THE LAW OF ATTRACTION and how our lives are affected by the praying we do or don't do for that matter...
“I would also recommend the Divine Matrix by Gregg Braden.”

["Manifesting" is a New Age concept: "'Manifesting is the art of creating what you want at the time that you want it,' says John Payne (aka Omni, a 'being of light' channeled by Mr. Payne)," (http://www.skepdic.com/manifest.html).
The “Law of Attraction” is an old occult idea, (the term was coined by New Thought author Prentice Mulford in the late 19th century), that has recently found new popularity through books and movies, such as "The Secret," by Rhonda Byrne, (promoted by Oprah Winfrey).
Gregg Braden, whose book the customer recommends, is a New Age pseudo-scientist who attempts to use Max Planck’s theories to prove occult, mind-over-matter doctrine, (and his “science” has been debunked by some on the internet).]

B) A person involved in Wicca (witchcraft) wrote the following praise for Joyce Meyer at http://thesnakredcircle.wordpress.com/…/evangelicious-what…/ (webpage now deleted):

“The Snakred Circle
“Spirit Taking Form

“Evangelicious! (What Joyce Said)
“Since my spirit guides decided to make such a big d*mn deal out of bringing the subject of alignment to my attention last month, I figure it’s something they really want me to understand better. I’ve been studyin’ on it.
“The most interesting thing so far has come from an unlikely source – evangelical minister Joyce Meyer. LAW OF ATTRACTION, FREQUENCY, AFFIRMATIONS, VIBRATION AND ALIGNMENT have all undoubtedly gone mainstream if Joyce Meyer writes a book about the subject, from her fundamentalist background, for her followers.
“’Me And My Big Mouth’ had one really neat thing in it that particularly stood out. MEYER DOES NOT CALL THIS TECHNIQUE ‘AFFIRMATIONS’ BUT THAT’S WHAT I RECOGNIZE IT AS, AND I LIKE HOW SHE TWEAKED IT.”

C) A woman named Janet Boyer, who is into the occult and Tarot cards, and co-hosts a BlogTalkRadio program called “Tarot B*tches Radio,” places Joyce Meyer in the category of the “masculine” Tarot figure, “Queen of Swords,” (whose “Love language” is “Words of Affirmation”), in a list that includes several prominent occultists Janet favors:

“But the two masculine Queens, the Wands and the Swords, are just as powerful and needed.
“How are they different?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

All this is saying is that the Holy Spirit is the one who teaches us the things of God and explains what Jesus taught. You have put the last phrase in bold, but I can't see for the life of me why, unless you are trying to make some sort of point which you have not made clear.



Okay. What you are saying is true, but what is your point???????

Jesus was only speaking to the Apostles. They would be guided into All truth. That is the point. They were clearly unique instruments

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,

Hello Oscar, I want to thank you for now interacting with the texts now. Many will not do so. Let's see what we can do.

[Where is it written? Jesus said that when the Comforter comes He will be with us forever. Nothing about ceasing there.]
No one thinks the Holy Spirit is not eternal God.God will never leave us or forsake us.

[ Mark 16 doesn't say, "These signs shall follow those who believe while the original Apostles are still alive".]

Why don't we take a look at what Mark 16 teaches?

[I don't know whether English is your first or second language, but if a person says one thing and does not mention the opposite, then the first thing he says remains true.]
They speak English in New Zealand, don't they?
As English is my language I can read with comprehension and that is why we do not agree with what the passage teaches.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

notice verse 15...Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, not everyone,
He explains what will be the results of their preaching.
Notice now verse 20....The Lord working with them,confirming the word with signs following.

You tried to say I was picking out verses out of context, but clearly, it is signs of the Apostles spoken of here.

[Therefore if Jesus says that the signs will follow those who believe,]
The text says the signs of the Apostles followed those who believe their preaching,
It does not speak of anyone else preaching or having signs following does it?
In fact this happened to Paul in Acts;28
3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.

5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

[and Paul teaches what those signs are in 1 Corinthians 12, and nothing is said about them being temporary or going to cease, then common sense tells us that the signs have not ceased.]
Sign gifts existed in the early church . They were signs....not the norm.1cor12-14 regulated them.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Here is a verse saying tongues will cease, and partial knowledge will cease when the perfect, or complete knowledge comes.

[All the Scriptures you have quoted so far have been out of context and cobbled together to try and prove your point,]

As we look I think you will see what actually is listed is in context and demonstrates the truth of the OP.

[but they have failed because they have not said anything specific about the sign gifts ceasing. ]
they were ...."signs of the Apostles".....who were foundational eph2:20....when the Apostles left earth, the Apostolic sign gifts no longer existed.

[ Every indication from what Jesus and Paul have said shows that the sign gifts are meant to continue in the Church until the Second Coming. ]

We both know there is no such indication anywhere in scripture.
Perhaps you can show that from scripure?

[They actually ceased because of the hypocrisy, godlessness and unbelief of Church leaders who allowed pagan influences to become part of their theology]
So you admit they ceased in church history. Okay we are making progress.

I have absolutely no disagreement about your Scriptural proof that the original Apostles did move in the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit.

I also have no disagreement that the supernatural gifts faded out during and after the Fourth Century. It is interesting that Augustine in his early ministry thought that they were meant to cease, but later in his ministry, some remarkable healing took place in his ministry and he changed his tune about supernatural signs and wonders, and tried to get the message across to the Church leaders, but they ignored him and went with his earlier views.

It is also interesting that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit including tongues prophecy and healing continued in the Eastern Orthodox Church right through to the 12th Century, and as far as I can gather, in private meetings they still happen although they have been withdrawn from public use.

Wesley in his journal records 250 verified healings during his ministry, including his horse Dan that was healed of lameness as the result of prayer.

I had a personal friend in the 1970s who was totally healed of total deafness and did not have to wear his hearing aids any longer. He went to Auckland hospital to have one ear operated on, and on the way back he started hearing through the other ear. 50 people at that time will testify that his healing was absolutely genuine.

I have another personal friend who, when he was still living in Zimbabwe, was part of a group who prayed for a crippled girl whose body was so twisted she could not walk. As they prayed, they heard the crunching and cracking as her bones went back into place and she was so totally healed that she was absolutely normal and one could not know that she was ever crippled!

I have a DVD of 130 people who gave their testimonies of healing of every condition you can think of. There are a number of booklets that contain hundreds of healing testimonies right around New Zealand of people who were healed through an itinerant healing evangelist.

The facts and experiences win over an argument every time!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Oscarr,

[So? That doesn't prove anything at all. The writer to the Hebrews is merely stating what took place in his past. Says nothing about what will happen in his future ]

Hebrews 2:3-4 shows clearly that God confirmed the Apostolic preaching....The NT. paints a full picture as we discover when we study it in total.

There is no doubt about what you are saying. But as my previous post points out, the great number of people who are being genuinely healed through supernatural means through the power of the Holy Spirit makes a mockery of any attempt to say that these things don't happen in these days.

Apart from healing, I have a personal friend who spoke in tongues at a prayer meeting and a visiting Christian brother from Ghana who had never met my friend, heard him speak in his own rural village dialect. My friend could never have known or learned that dialect yet he spoke it without a NZ accent!

I have another friend who spent his childhood in Kenya and in his church they had men who had never seen a white man in their lives, come into the church, get baptised in the Holy Spirit and start praising God in Oxford English without any trace of an African accent. An African speaking English after learning cannot ever speak pure Oxford English without an accent. My friend is Scottish and is a member of the Free Church of Scotland, and doesn't agree with modern Pentecostalism and is very strict about keeping rigidly to Scripture, and so he would never lie about a thing like that!

I was praying in a meeting during an altar call and a NZ Maori lady friend told me that I was praising God fluently in the Maori language, and I have never learned it fluently. Her name is Mrs Samuels and when I knew her at that time she was the most honest and godly woman. She would never lie about that - she would have no reason to!

So, that practically puts a spanner in the works, doesn't it?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Oscarr,
[This talks about the Second Coming of Christ.]
1 cor 13 was not speaking about Jesus second coming at all. It spoke of love, and when that partial knowledge is complete;
9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
He is speaking about partial knowledge, then perfect or complete knowledge....

[Biblically? Nonsense! I have shown that you have absolutely no Biblical foundation at all for saying the sign gifts have ceased. All your quotes, although true in themselves cannot prove anything that you are trying to assert.]
Only one of us has attempted a biblical case...you have not answered all of the verses. You have not made a biblical case.

[Rubbish. Paul did not describe tongues that way. You are dreaming this up out of your own head. Tongues is not one of the revelatory gifts. Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, Discerning of Spirits are revelatory gifts. Prophecy and Interpretation of Tongues are inspiration gifts. Tongues is not described as either. Any novice in the faith knows that!!!!]

The only rubbish here is your posting. If we are talking about the biblical gift of tongues it certainly was revelatory as it required an interpretation to say what God was saying. If it was not revealation it was not from God...no silly rhyming noises as currect people claim.

[Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that. Peter says that tongues and prophecy are the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy given 800 years before. It is the healing, signs and wonders that authenticated the Apostles' ministry as you have rightly quoted in the Scriptures you have posted.]
...yes ..this is that Acts 2:16

My actual personal experience and that of my friends makes your application of Scripture to try and prove that tongues and healing are not for today just nonsense, because how can you explain a woman, whom I prayed for who had an incurable condition that prevented her from having children, diagnosed by the doctor by the way, and after prayer conceived and had a baby?

How do you explain another lady with chronic back pain which she had for years, had absolutely no pain and had the best night's sleep in years, after she was prayed for by 30 people one by one in a healing conference which I conducted. I was there. I saw it happen!

My work supervisor who was diagnosed with arthritis in her knee by her doctor. After prayer,she went back to the doctor and the arthritis has disappeared. This was after the arthritis was seen on xray, but after a further xray it was gone! How do you explain that?

Are all the hundreds of doctors in New Zealand who verified supernatural healings from people all over the country, are so incompetent that they misdiagnosed those people in the first place?

You can quote Scriptures until the cows come home, but you cannot deny actual experience. These are not hearsay stories from somewhere else. These are true stories in my own experience and in my own city and around my own country!

In a healing meeting I saw a guy being healed of a back problem. He could not bend his back at all, and after prayer he was bending over touching his toes. Were my eyes deceiving me? Was the guy lying when he couldn't bend his back just a little bit?

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

6) Meyer teaches that WE CAN NEVER JUDGE ANYONE, (a convenient doctrine for anyone not wanting to be held accountable):
“We never have enough information to judge anyone…not one of us ever has enough information to judge anyone critically,” (sermon, “Don’t Be Too Quick to Judge,” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daf5QGsJKHk).

This doctrine of Meyer’s is contrary to scripture. Jesus said to “judge righteous judgment,” (John 7:24), and Paul, (who judged others, 1 Corinthians 5:3), told the Christians at Rome, “ye also are full of goodness, filled with all knowledge, able also to admonish one another,” (Romans 15:14).
However, this doctrine is in agreement with occult “preacher” Norman Vincent Peale, who wrote, “The Bible says quite clearly, ‘Judge not…’ (Matthew 7:1), and the reason behind this prohibition is plain. We never have all the information that would enable us to make an absolutely just judgment,” (“Positive Imaging,” 1982, pg. 118). Peale failed to mention that Matthew 7:1 was about HYPOCRITICAL judgment, and that Jesus gave instructions there for us to get ourselves right FIRST so that we may THEN help our brother in his error, (“Thou HYPOCRITE, FIRST cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and THEN shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye,” (vs. 5)), which, of course, requires righteous judgment.
7) Meyer teaches that once we first repent, Jesus has already forgiven not only our past sins, but all of our FUTURE SINS:
“Jesus loved me so much that HE NOT ONLY FORGAVE ALL MY SINS FROM THE PAST BUT ALSO LOOKED AHEAD AND FORGAVE ME FOR THOSE MOMENTS OF WEAKNESS WHEN I'D FAIL IN THE FUTURE. I don't have to allow Satan to sneak in with questions or unbelief, and you don't either,” (https://www.bible.com/…/199-promises-for-your-every…/day/162).

However, the Bible says it is our past sins that are forgiven:
“Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins THAT ARE PAST, through the forbearance of God,” (Romans 3:25).
It also teaches that we have to repent again if/when we sin again:
“Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent,” (Revelations 2:5).
(For more on this, see our article “FUTURE SINS,” https://www.facebook.com/EarnestContender/posts/460182694129876.)

8) Meyer teaches the heresy that we HUMANS ARE LITTLE “gods,” CREATED AS THE “GOD-KIND,” misusing, (as Mormons and other occultists do), Jesus' quotation (in John 10:34) of Psalms 82:6:
“…I was listening to a set of tapes by one man, and he explained it like this, and I think this kinda gets the point across, he said, ‘You know, why do people have such a fit about God calling His creation, His creation, His ‘man,’ not His whole creation but His ‘man,’ little gods? If He’s God, what’s He gonna call’em but the Godkind?’ I mean, if you as a human being have a baby, you call it a ‘humankind.’ If, if cattle have another cattle, they call it ‘cattlekind.’ I mean, what’s God supposed to call us? Doesn’t the Bible say we’re created in His image? Now, you understand, I’m not sayin’ ‘You are God,’ with a capital ‘G’. That is not the issue here, so don’t go trying to stone me or yell blasphemy at me! The Bible says right here, John 10:34…’And Jesus answered, Is it not written in your law, ‘I said you are gods?’ little ‘g’.”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrP3OLCH9GI&feature=related

Not rightly dividing scripture, Meyer does not understand the context of the words Jesus quoted, which are about men judging over others as “gods” in that sense (Psalms 82:1-2), but that these “gods” would “die like men, and fall like one of the princes,” (vs. 7), which is the fate of all false “gods,” (“The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens,” Jeremiah 10:11). Instead, Meyer invites us to view ourselves as “gods,” as she reasons that God’s “offspring” must surely be “God-kind,” (a common heresy in the Word Of Faith movement). Of course, it was this ambition to be “like the most High” that got Lucifer evicted from heaven, (Isaiah 14:12-15). (Note: If we were already “gods” by virtue of being created in God’s image, then the Serpent’s temptation of Eve with the lure, “ye shall be as gods,” (Genesis 3:5), would be meaningless, and no temptation at all.)

Going even further than just teaching that we are little “gods,” Joyce Meyer Ministries Facebook page has advocated (in a post on 11/09/15) that we should all presume to steal God’s identity as the “I Am”:
“If you listen to the devil, all you're ever going to hear is what you're not, you're not, you're not…. But isn't this interesting? All we see in the Bible is, I Am, I Am, I Am.”

All too many of her readers agreed with this, and reveled in applying His self-identifying (as the eternal, timeless God) words to themselves, (with some writing such things as, “I Am, I Am, I Am...” and “I Am That I Am All That I Am,” and one recognizing this as a doctrine of New Ager Wayne Dyers, “Thank you, and I was just listening to Dr. Wayne Dyers CDs titled Wishful Thinking, where he states you must believe in and say a lot of I Ams”). Thankfully, a few wise readers understood the blasphemous indications of this affirmation, and wrote, “JESUS is the Great I Am,” and “Don’t forget that is the GOD of creation saying I AM, not meant to be read as you and I are the I AM,” (referring to Jehovah God telling Moses, “I AM THAT I AM… Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you,” (Exodus 3:14), and Jesus identifying Himself as that one God in flesh, “Before Abraham was, I am,” (John 8:58)).

This is serious, deadly heresy. One must remember that the Apostles refused to be identified as gods, (Acts 10:25-26; 14:11-15), and God slew Herod for simply allowing others to call him a “god,” (Acts 12:21-23), and God has pronounced judgment on those who presume to say, “I am a God,” (Ezekiel 28:1-10).

• JOYCE MEYER'S TEACHINGS ARE RECOGNIZED AS OCCULTIC BY THOSE IN THE OCCULT

Joyce Meyer may be fooling many Christians, but she is recognized as teaching occult concepts by many who are into the New Age and occult practices. The following three examples illustrate the connection/identification made by people familiar with such concepts:

A) A Customer Review, on Amazon’s site, of Joyce Meyer’s 2007 book "The Power of Simple Prayer: How to Talk with God about Everything," at http://www.amazon.com/The-Power-Simple-Prayer-…/…/0446531960:

“Where some authors fail to fully explain prayer or MANIFESTATION, Joyce Meyer does a great job of explaining the biblical processes of accepting or living by THE LAW OF ATTRACTION and how our lives are affected by the praying we do or don't do for that matter...
“I would also recommend the Divine Matrix by Gregg Braden.”

["Manifesting" is a New Age concept: "'Manifesting is the art of creating what you want at the time that you want it,' says John Payne (aka Omni, a 'being of light' channeled by Mr. Payne)," (http://www.skepdic.com/manifest.html).
The “Law of Attraction” is an old occult idea, (the term was coined by New Thought author Prentice Mulford in the late 19th century), that has recently found new popularity through books and movies, such as "The Secret," by Rhonda Byrne, (promoted by Oprah Winfrey).
Gregg Braden, whose book the customer recommends, is a New Age pseudo-scientist who attempts to use Max Planck’s theories to prove occult, mind-over-matter doctrine, (and his “science” has been debunked by some on the internet).]

B) A person involved in Wicca (witchcraft) wrote the following praise for Joyce Meyer at http://thesnakredcircle.wordpress.com/…/evangelicious-what…/ (webpage now deleted):

“The Snakred Circle
“Spirit Taking Form

“Evangelicious! (What Joyce Said)
“Since my spirit guides decided to make such a big d*mn deal out of bringing the subject of alignment to my attention last month, I figure it’s something they really want me to understand better. I’ve been studyin’ on it.
“The most interesting thing so far has come from an unlikely source – evangelical minister Joyce Meyer. LAW OF ATTRACTION, FREQUENCY, AFFIRMATIONS, VIBRATION AND ALIGNMENT have all undoubtedly gone mainstream if Joyce Meyer writes a book about the subject, from her fundamentalist background, for her followers.
“’Me And My Big Mouth’ had one really neat thing in it that particularly stood out. MEYER DOES NOT CALL THIS TECHNIQUE ‘AFFIRMATIONS’ BUT THAT’S WHAT I RECOGNIZE IT AS, AND I LIKE HOW SHE TWEAKED IT.”

C) A woman named Janet Boyer, who is into the occult and Tarot cards, and co-hosts a BlogTalkRadio program called “Tarot B*tches Radio,” places Joyce Meyer in the category of the “masculine” Tarot figure, “Queen of Swords,” (whose “Love language” is “Words of Affirmation”), in a list that includes several prominent occultists Janet favors:

“But the two masculine Queens, the Wands and the Swords, are just as powerful and needed.
“How are they different?

You've got the drop on me there!
All I did was to view 4 hours of her ministry and I could detect anything that was contrary to Scripture.
I would rather accept what I saw, than take the comments of those with ungodly criticising spirits and those who have not the spirit of Christ, running down her and her ministry.
I think that most of the people you have quoted are unconverted, because they don't have the spirit of Christ and therefore are none of His. I'm not interested in what the devil says about her, and everything you have quoted has come from the world, the flesh and the devil.

If Jesus was in our world, healing folk and casting out demons, all those whom you have quoted will say the same things about Him!

It is interesting that you are resorting to what godless occult people are saying and that most of your post is their words, and yet you can't quote one single scripture that shows beyond doubt that her ministry is false! It seems that you are now trusting more in what the devil is saying than what God is saying about her.

 

[Dave L]

So? That doesn't prove anything at all. The writer to the Hebrews is merely stating what took place in his past. Says nothing about what will happen in his future. Any theory about the cessation of the sign gifts from that quote has to be less believable than that mankind came from monkeys!!!!!!

If you put all of the passages together, the big picture shows today's "gifts" are mimics of the originals. The original gifts helped write NT scripture. But they were fragments of God's word, now complete and collected in the scriptures.

 

[Dave L]

Isn't that what good preaching does?

Preaching the complete word exceeds prophecy and tongues which gave only fragments of God's word.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

[QUOTE="Oscarr,
You can quote Scriptures until the cows come home, but you cannot deny actual experience. These are not hearsay stories from somewhere else. These are true stories in my own experience and in my own city and around my own country!

[/QUOTE]
So...we see that you have no scriptural argument, but rather uncle Oscar's storytime. I am not instructed to believe your supposed anecdotal stories. Your revised history and supposed real accounts . That is all you offer. No... I will believe the scriptural teaching as that is what God would have a believer do.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You've got the drop on me there!
All I did was to view 4 hours of her ministry and I could detect anything that was contrary to Scripture.
I would rather accept what I saw, than take the comments of those with ungodly criticising spirits and those who have not the spirit of Christ, running down her and her ministry.
I think that most of the people you have quoted are unconverted, because they don't have the spirit of Christ and therefore are none of His. I'm not interested in what the devil says about her, and everything you have quoted has come from the world, the flesh and the devil.

If Jesus was in our world, healing folk and casting out demons, all those whom you have quoted will say the same things about Him!

It is interesting that you are resorting to what godless occult people are saying and that most of your post is their words, and yet you can't quote one single scripture that shows beyond doubt that her ministry is false! It seems that you are now trusting more in what the devil is saying than what God is saying about her.

Because you abandon scripture you still defend the error. I just put forth what was on google. I know from scripture she is in rebellion from God's instruction
The danger of extra biblical charismatic error is shown in these posts. You cling to error and experience, and stories rather than scripture.
I and others stay in scripture where God wants us to be.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I have absolutely no disagreement about your Scriptural proof that the original Apostles did move in the power and demonstration of the Holy Spirit.

I also have no disagreement that the supernatural gifts faded out during and after the Fourth Century.

It is also interesting that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit including tongues prophecy and healing continued in the Eastern Orthodox Church right through to the 12th Century, and as far as I can gather, in private meetings they still happen

The facts and experiences win over an argument every time!

No....scripture is not voided out because you make false assertions. Falsely given anecdotal stories do not override scripture.
You give lip service to the apostles but deny the biblical teaching they were uniquely promised to be guided into all truth.
There were no sign gifts after the Apostles.
Thanks for being honest at least by offering why you believe what you do based on your experience and stories which according to your own posts you suggest they over ride scripture.
It cannot be both. I will stay under scriptural authority.
I notice no other extra biblical person came in to help. They stay in their protected forum where people like myself get censored from openly offering scripture or opinions that do not agree.

 

[YeshuaFan]

So this shows that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles have written absolute truth and not "cunningly devised fables". If you are using this reference to show that modern Pentecostals and Charismatics are following cunningly devised fables, you are misusing Peter's words to mean something different to what he originally meant.



I don't see how you are applying this Scripture to anyone but the original Apostles themselves. Everything that is said is quite true.

So far, you haven't provided any substantive proof from Scripture that shows that the apostolic ministry as practiced today is false in any way, or that the sign gifts practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatics are false either.

There is no proof that supports that God has given any Apostles to the Church since John passed, as the original Ones were the ones that already laid in the theological foundation to us built upon the Rock Jesus Christ!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

[QUOTE="Oscarr,
You can quote Scriptures until the cows come home, but you cannot deny actual experience. These are not hearsay stories from somewhere else. These are true stories in my own experience and in my own city and around my own country!

So...we see that you have no scriptural argument, but rather uncle Oscar's storytime. I am not instructed to believe your supposed anecdotal stories. Your revised history and supposed real accounts . That is all you offer. No... I will believe the scriptural teaching as that is what God would have a believer do.[/QUOTE]
You are saying that divine healing doesn't happen today because it all ceased. Yet, there are thousands of testimonies of people all over the world who have been miraculously healed! And you have not been able to produce one Scripture where Jesus, Paul, John or Peter said right out that the miraculous was only meant to be temporary.
I guess that there are none so blind who will not see.
I think that even a miracle of healing happened right in front of you, you would find a reason not to believe it. It is not that you cannot believe that the gifts are still active today, but you won't believe it. You have set your will not to believe it, and although you cannot find one Scripture that plainly and clearly points out that the gifts were only until the Bible was completed, in spite of that, you have decided to believe that the gift have ceased, and that is that for you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is no proof that supports that God has given any Apostles to the Church since John passed, as the original Ones were the ones that already laid in the theological foundation to us built upon the Rock Jesus Christ!

Here's an interesting scenario. There is a church in the first century AD, and there is a prayer line for healing. Healing is still happening because the Apostle John is still alive. But in the middle of a prayer for a sick person, the news comes that John has died. If what you say is true, then the minister would have to say, "Well, you can't be healed after all, because the Apostle John has died, and the gift of healing has ceased, so you have to remain sick!"

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

There is no proof that supports that God has given any Apostles to the Church since John passed, as the original Ones were the ones that already laid in the theological foundation to us built upon the Rock Jesus Christ!

I think it is not because God has withdrawn the role of Apostle from the church, but that the church evolved into something quite different from the church of the first century.

What we have today is a fragmented church split into many denomination factions who have no fellowship with each other. Therefore there is no point in God appointing apostles, whose role is to serve the whole church and not part of it. So we might have a guy calling himself an apostle within his own denomination, but he is not a true one because no other denomination would recognise his ministry.

There it is not God's fault or intention that there are no real apostles today. It is the church in the way that it is now nothing like the first century church when the original Apostles were alive.

That is also why we don't see the widespread manifestation of the supernatural gifts, because they were meant to operate in a unified church, but when the church decided to become formalized and adopted pagan ideas along with Christian doctrine, and then started splitting into different factions, then the power went out of it as well. Even the RCC church in the centuries where there was only one church, it was split up into factions which they called "holy orders".

So, it was not God who caused the gifts to cease, it were the decisions made by the church that changed it into something God could not work with in the way He wants.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"Oscarr,

[My actual personal experience and that of my friends makes your application of Scripture to try and prove that tongues and healing are not for today just nonsense, ]

Joseph Smith said the same thing Oscar.

[because how can you explain a woman, whom I prayed for who had an incurable condition that prevented her from having children, diagnosed by the doctor by the way, and after prayer conceived and had a baby?]
God opens and closes the womb.

[You can quote Scriptures until the cows come home, but you cannot deny actual experience.]
That is a profane view of scripture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

"Oscarr,

[My actual personal experience and that of my friends makes your application of Scripture to try and prove that tongues and healing are not for today just nonsense, ]

Joseph Smith said the same thing Oscar.

[because how can you explain a woman, whom I prayed for who had an incurable condition that prevented her from having children, diagnosed by the doctor by the way, and after prayer conceived and had a baby?]
God opens and closes the womb.

[You can quote Scriptures until the cows come home, but you cannot deny actual experience.]
That is a profane view of scripture.

Although I agree that the original Apostles were unqiue in their role in the church, they were also examples of Christian ministry to follow them.
There are validated historical records in the Vatican that show that quite a number of early Catholic Saint had miracles, signs and wonders, the same as the original Apostles. But you won't believe them because you won't want to.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Although I agree that the original Apostles were unqiue in their role in the church, they were also examples of Christian ministry to follow them.
There are validated historical records in the Vatican that show that quite a number of early Catholic Saint had miracles, signs and wonders, the same as the original Apostles. But you won't believe them because you won't want to.