Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

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From the 1689 Confession of faith;
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

We will begin to make the case from scripture.....:preach:
:wave:
:wave:
As I said before, this was written by godly men for sure, but the accepted view of the time was that the sign gifts had ceased. Any movement that had evidence of the continuance of the gifts would have been severely suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church and their literature destroyed. The only information existing about these movements is from their enemies and court transcripts. So it is quite understandable that the Confession would state that the gifts had ceased.

Just because a council of cessationist men decided that the gifts had ceased, doesn't prove that cessation was or is the will of God for the Church.
 
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The Apostles and Nt. prophets were specially chosen instruments of God.
Agreed.

mk3
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils:
Agreed.

1jn1:
1 John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;

2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)

3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

There is nothing here that I disagree with.
The original Apostles, including Paul were specially chosen to be the foundation of the Church. This is why the letters of Paul, Peter, John, Jude, and the author of Hebrews are part of the NT canon of Scripture. No Pope, who is supposed to be part of the Apostolic Succession has ever got his writing into the canon of Scripture, so what the original Apostles wrote provide the doctrinal basis for the Church.
No surprises or problems there!
 
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2pet1:
16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
So this shows that the writers of the Gospels and Epistles have written absolute truth and not "cunningly devised fables". If you are using this reference to show that modern Pentecostals and Charismatics are following cunningly devised fables, you are misusing Peter's words to mean something different to what he originally meant.

17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

I don't see how you are applying this Scripture to anyone but the original Apostles themselves. Everything that is said is quite true.

So far, you haven't provided any substantive proof from Scripture that shows that the apostolic ministry as practiced today is false in any way, or that the sign gifts practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatics are false either.
 
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Jesus having concluded His public ministry gives special instructions to the Apostles-

jn14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

jn14:
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
All this is saying is that the Holy Spirit is the one who teaches us the things of God and explains what Jesus taught. You have put the last phrase in bold, but I can't see for the life of me why, unless you are trying to make some sort of point which you have not made clear.


29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.

jn15:

26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

jn16:
4
But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come,
he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Okay. What you are saying is true, but what is your point???????
 
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The Apostles were guided into ALL TRUTH.

God promised them he would bring all things to their remembrance whatsoever He taught them.

God said He would show them things to come.

God gave signs and wonders to authenticate His word. 2 Cor12
12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Heb2:

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;

4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Again. What you have quoted is true, but you have not made any points other than you have said that the original Apostles were truly called of God and authenticated by supernatural signs and wonders. This is just theology 101 stuff. No surprises here!
 
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Now we look in Acts:3

6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.

7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength.

8 And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God.

9 And all the people saw him walking and praising God:

10 And they knew that it was he which sat for alms at the Beautiful gate of the temple: and they were filled with wonder and amazement at that which had happened unto him.

11 And as the lame man which was healed held Peter and John, all the people ran together unto them in the porch that is called Solomon's, greatly wondering.

12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?

This miracle caused the people to listen to the Apostolic sermon, they were granted repentance and faith by God.
Again. True. But you said that these Scriptures are proof that the supernatural signs and wonders performed by Pentecostals and Charismatics are false, but I don't see any proof in what you have quoted!!!
 
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Acts4:
28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.


32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
Again. What is your point???
All you are quoting is what is true!
 
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I am glad we can find at least partial agreement. In the other thread, you were correct about the carnal Christian heresy, and yet very wrong about Charles Finney
Have you read his biography?
 
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Which is it -- did they or were we expecting them not to?


The issue really is this: did tongues cease to be a significant part of the life of the church? Yes or no. It is a matter of history. Cessationists are merely pointing to the fact that they did.
You have not been able to prove that in anything you have said or quoted in this thread. Just because you are saying it, even in bold type, does not make it true.
 
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The Apostolic sign gifts...were signs of the Apostles...they have ceased their ministry on earth but the signs were used to establish the word of God as being given through the Apostles as Jesus promised them...Uniquely. The purpose of the signs were to credential the word...look in 1Jn as to what the testing of the Spirits;
1jn4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

eph2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

Jude 3 King James Version (KJV)
3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1cor12:
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
Again, you are quoting Scriptures that are true in their context. Just because Paul asks the questions at the end goes to merely to show that each person has different gifts and ministries. He doesn't even answer his own questions, so nothing that Paul is saying here proves that there were no apostles, prophets, workers of miracles, tongues speakers or interpreters of tongues.

But he says definitely that these gifts are set in the Church. Then if your church doesn't have them or believe in them, then is your church part of the Church? Good question!

Notice that he does not say that these gifts are set in the Church until it becomes established or that the canon of Scripture is completed. There is nothing in Paul's statement that says anything other than the gifts are for the Church, period. And we are still in the Church Age which finishes at the Second Coming of Christ.

Your quote of the Scripture intensifies the confidence that the sign gifts are still evident in the Church, not that they have ceased.
 
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isa28:
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

16 Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


1cor14
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
So? That's what the Scriptures say. But again, you don't make a point to apply those Scriptures to anything!!
 
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Yes indeed:
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
This talks about the Second Coming of Christ.

ohn MacArthur
Gifts are temporary. Notice verse 8, “Love never fails.” That’s the great statement that covers the rest of the chapter. Now, he begins to discuss the temporary nature of gifts. “But whether there be prophecies, they shall be rendered inoperative” – or abolished or done away – “whether there be tongues, they shall stop by themselves” – in the middle voice – “whether there be knowledge, it shall be rendered inoperative” – be abolished or be done away
Now we are coming to it! One of the cardinal rules of Hermeneutics that John McArthur is breaking is that you don't establish a doctrine on half a verse of Scripture, and on one that is obscure and open to different interpretations. Because of that his assertion is entirely false and not based on Scripture at all. He cannot provide ONE Scripture that proves his assertion beyond all doubt. If he tried to produce this evidence in a court of Law he would be laughed out of court. The Scripture says that it needs three witnesses to prove an assertion, and he cannot provide even one!!! And the witnesses have to say categorically that the sign gifts are meant to pass away or that they have - IN SCRIPTURE. Not in the mind of an theologian inexperienced and incompetent in the area of the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit. What McArthur is saying is ABSOLUTE GARBAGE!!!

Now, we saw last time that there is an interesting distinction made in the use of the verbs with prophecy and knowledge as over against tongues. And in relation to tongues, we saw that the verb that is used in the form that it is used says tongues will stop by themselves. And then we did some discussion as to whether they had, in fact, stopped. And we determined that they had, biblically, three purposes.
Biblically? Nonsense! I have shown that you have absolutely no Biblical foundation at all for saying the sign gifts have ceased. All your quotes, although true in themselves cannot prove anything that you are trying to assert.

Number one, the purpose of tongues could be seen as revelatory. In other words, God was actually revealing His Word through that gift on occasions. And we determined that the revelation has already been given, “Once for all delivered to the saints,” so that purpose for tongues would have ceased.
Rubbish. Paul did not describe tongues that way. You are dreaming this up out of your own head. Tongues is not one of the revelatory gifts. Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, Discerning of Spirits are revelatory gifts. Prophecy and Interpretation of Tongues are inspiration gifts. Tongues is not described as either. Any novice in the faith knows that!!!!

Secondly, we saw that tongues was also a confirmation, a wonder gift, confirming the apostles and the prophets and their apostolic ministry. And since there are no longer apostles and prophets, as we have seen from Ephesians 2:20, that part of the gift of tongues had no further need to exist because there is no authenticating of such men today.
Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that. Peter says that tongues and prophecy are the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy given 800 years before. It is the healing, signs and wonders that authenticated the Apostles' ministry as you have rightly quoted in the Scriptures you have posted.

Thirdly, we saw from the New Testament that tongues was a sign of judicial punishment on the covenant people, Israel, which punishment was carried out in 70 A.D. Consequently, the sign no longer needs to be in existence today. And history, then, corroborated for us that tongues did, in fact, cease until approximately 1900, when this modern movement began.
Nowhere does it say that either. Paul describes tongues as similar to the experience of the Jews hearing the Assyrian language during the captivity where the Jews lived among the Assyrians. That was a sign that judgment had already happened to them. Tongues being a sign to unbelievers means that when they hear it they know they, being unconverted, are moving toward Judgment and they need to repent. This did not stop applying to unconverted people when Jerusalem was destroyed in AD 70. If you saying that, then you are merely going into speculation. I would believe the theory of Evolution before I would believe what you are saying about the cessation of sign gifts!!!

So we said that tongues have ceased,
You are saying it, but the Bible isn't, because you have not produce ONE SINGLE Scripture that plainly says it.[/quote]
 
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The scriptures do give the correct teaching. That you do not seem to grasp the import of the teaching is not the fault of the verses offered.
Now you claim the false teacher Joyce Meyer is solid?
When you turn from scriptural teaching only error is left.
Give me quotes of what Joyce Meyer has said that are not consistent with Scripture.
 
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“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4) (KJV 1900)
So? That doesn't prove anything at all. The writer to the Hebrews is merely stating what took place in his past. Says nothing about what will happen in his future. Any theory about the cessation of the sign gifts from that quote has to be less believable than that mankind came from monkeys!!!!!!
 
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So, is that all you've got? You have not yet been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Apostles in terms of the signs and wonders that accompanied their preaching were unique, and that these signs and wonders are no longer an integral part of modern day preaching of the Gospel.

Up until now, you have UTTERLY FAILED to prove your point from overt statements from Scripture.

Also, with all due respect, don't try quoting any more from McArthur, because I would believe that the sun won't rise in the morning before I believe anything he has written about the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Oscarr,

Hello Oscar, I want to thank you for now interacting with the texts now. Many will not do so. Let's see what we can do.

[Where is it written? Jesus said that when the Comforter comes He will be with us forever. Nothing about ceasing there.]
No one thinks the Holy Spirit is not eternal God.God will never leave us or forsake us.

[ Mark 16 doesn't say, "These signs shall follow those who believe while the original Apostles are still alive".]

Why don't we take a look at what Mark 16 teaches?


[I don't know whether English is your first or second language, but if a person says one thing and does not mention the opposite, then the first thing he says remains true.]
They speak English in New Zealand, don't they?
As English is my language I can read with comprehension and that is why we do not agree with what the passage teaches.

14
Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

notice verse 15...Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, not everyone,
He explains what will be the results of their preaching.

Notice now verse 20....The Lord working with them,confirming the word with signs following.

You tried to say I was picking out verses out of context, but clearly, it is signs of the Apostles spoken of here.


[Therefore if Jesus says that the signs will follow those who believe,]
The text says the signs of the Apostles followed those who believe their preaching,
It does not speak of anyone else preaching or having signs following does it?
In fact this happened to Paul in Acts;28

3 And when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks, and laid them on the fire, there came a viper out of the heat, and fastened on his hand.

4 And when the barbarians saw the venomous beast hang on his hand, they said among themselves, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he hath escaped the sea, yet vengeance suffereth not to live.

5 And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

6 Howbeit they looked when he should have swollen, or fallen down dead suddenly: but after they had looked a great while, and saw no harm come to him, they changed their minds, and said that he was a god.

[and Paul teaches what those signs are in 1 Corinthians 12, and nothing is said about them being temporary or going to cease, then common sense tells us that the signs have not ceased.]
Sign gifts existed in the early church . They were signs....not the norm.1cor12-14 regulated them.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

Here is a verse saying tongues will cease, and partial knowledge will cease when the perfect, or complete knowledge comes.


[All the Scriptures you have quoted so far have been out of context and cobbled together to try and prove your point,]

As we look I think you will see what actually is listed is in context and demonstrates the truth of the OP.

[but they have failed because they have not said anything specific about the sign gifts ceasing. ]
they were ...."signs of the Apostles".....who were foundational eph2:20....when the Apostles left earth, the Apostolic sign gifts no longer existed.

[ Every indication from what Jesus and Paul have said shows that the sign gifts are meant to continue in the Church until the Second Coming. ]

We both know there is no such indication anywhere in scripture.
Perhaps you can show that from scripure?


[They actually ceased because of the hypocrisy, godlessness and unbelief of Church leaders who allowed pagan influences to become part of their theology]
So you admit they ceased in church history. Okay we are making progress.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Oscarr,

[So? That doesn't prove anything at all. The writer to the Hebrews is merely stating what took place in his past. Says nothing about what will happen in his future ]

Hebrews 2:3-4 shows clearly that God confirmed the Apostolic preaching....The NT. paints a full picture as we discover when we study it in total.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"Oscarr,

[So, is that all you've got? ]
So far all the scripture supports the OP.


[You have not yet been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the Apostles in terms of the signs and wonders that accompanied their preaching were unique,]

Sorry but you are not reading the verses carefully. Clearly, the Apostles were unique. I will wait and see if you comment on those scriptures, Mk3:14, jn 14,15, 16...were spoken only to the Apostles...that makes them unique

[and that these signs and wonders are no longer an integral part of modern day preaching of the Gospel.]
There are no Apostles on earth today, hence no Apostolic sign gifts, other than those recorded in scripture.


[Up until now, you have UTTERLY FAILED to prove your point from overt statements from Scripture.]

no...your lack of understanding these verses in context does not equate to a failure to find the correct teaching.

[Also, with all due respect, don't try quoting any more from McArthur, because I would believe that the sun won't rise in the morning before I believe anything he has written about the supernatural ministry of the Holy Spirit.]

John Macarthur is a solid guide and puts to flight these false ideas.
 
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Oscarr,

[As I said before, this was written by godly men for sure, but the accepted view of the time was that the sign gifts had ceased.]

Yes, you did say that. Let me suggest to you that the reason this was the accepted view is that it is the clear teaching of scripture.


[any movement that had evidence of the continuance of the gifts would have been severely suppressed by the Roman Catholic Church and their literature destroyed. ]
I can agree with you that the Roman church was not a friend to truth and did destroy writings

[The only information existing about these movements is from their enemies and court transcripts. So it is quite understandable that the Confession would state that the gifts had ceased.]

The confessions are based on scripture, not current events.

[Just because a council of cessationist men decided that the gifts had ceased, doesn't prove that cessation was or is the will of God for the Church.]
The scriptures are the only rule of faith and practice.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"Oscarr,
[This talks about the Second Coming of Christ.]
1 cor 13 was not speaking about Jesus second coming at all. It spoke of love, and when that partial knowledge is complete;
9 For
we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
He is speaking about partial knowledge, then perfect or complete knowledge....


[Biblically? Nonsense! I have shown that you have absolutely no Biblical foundation at all for saying the sign gifts have ceased. All your quotes, although true in themselves cannot prove anything that you are trying to assert.]
Only one of us has attempted a biblical case...you have not answered all of the verses. You have not made a biblical case.


[Rubbish. Paul did not describe tongues that way. You are dreaming this up out of your own head. Tongues is not one of the revelatory gifts. Word of Knowledge, Word of Wisdom, Discerning of Spirits are revelatory gifts. Prophecy and Interpretation of Tongues are inspiration gifts. Tongues is not described as either. Any novice in the faith knows that!!!!]

The only rubbish here is your posting. If we are talking about the biblical gift of tongues it certainly was revelatory as it required an interpretation to say what God was saying. If it was not revealation it was not from God...no silly rhyming noises as currect people claim.


[Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that. Peter says that tongues and prophecy are the fulfillment of Joel's prophecy given 800 years before. It is the healing, signs and wonders that authenticated the Apostles' ministry as you have rightly quoted in the Scriptures you have posted.]
...yes ..this is that Acts 2:16
 
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