Signs of the Apostles.....Apostolic Uniqueness

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The scriptures do give the correct teaching. That you do not seem to grasp the import of the teaching is not the fault of the verses offered.
Now you claim the false teacher Joyce Meyer is solid?
When you turn from scriptural teaching only error is left.

But your Scripture quotes do not specifically apply to anyone preaching today! They are general ones that are true in themselves, but it would take a twist of the meaning of the Scriptures to apply them to someone like Joyce Meyer.

You need to supply Scriptures that plainly say that modern preachers like Joyce Meyer are definitely false. Also, that God has definitely planned for the supernatural gifts and the apostolic ministry to cease. You have not achieved that yet.

When Jesus said about the mansions prepared for us in Heaven, He said if it were not so, He would have told us. Therefore, if the supernatural gifts were meant to be just temporary and would cease after the Church was established, He would have told us straight out. But in the absence anything that He has said, to try and prove that the supernatural gifts have ceased, cessationists have to twist the Scriptures out of context and try to make them say something different to what was originally meant. That's what false prophets and teachers do. They misquote and twist the Scriptures to support their jealous and envious attitudes toward successful ministries because seeing the effectiveness of them shows them up for the barrenness of their own spiritual lives and ministries. They hate seeing multitudes saved and healed through the ministries of others, that they want to happen in their own, and so they pour out their prejudice and hatred on godly preachers and teachers, who might have some minor flaw in their teaching, which doesn't detract from the godly preaching they do to great effect to tens of thousands of people.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The scriptures do give the correct teaching. That you do not seem to grasp the import of the teaching is not the fault of the verses offered.
Now you claim the false teacher Joyce Meyer is solid?
When you turn from scriptural teaching only error is left.

Furthermore, if Joyce Meyer lived in a three-bedroom house in a middle class suburb and drove a four-cylinder Nissan and preached in a small suburban church of around 100 people, most people would say what a wonderful Bible teacher and motivator she is! Come on. Be honest!

 

[Dave L]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4) (KJV 1900)

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Furthermore, if Joyce Meyer lived in a three-bedroom house in a middle class suburb and drove a four-cylinder Nissan and preached in a small suburban church of around 100 people, most people would say what a wonderful Bible teacher and motivator she is! Come on. Be honest!

Oscar...1 tim2:11-15 Is quite clear. Any woman who violates that is in rebellion to God.
Do the scriptures mean anything to you? I have to ask the question as you act as if they are optional? If you say they are indeed important explain 1tim2 for us.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

But your Scripture quotes do not specifically apply to anyone preaching today! They are general ones that are true in themselves, but it would take a twist of the meaning of the Scriptures to apply them to someone like Joyce Meyer.

You need to supply Scriptures that plainly say that modern preachers like Joyce Meyer are definitely false. Also, that God has definitely planned for the supernatural gifts and the apostolic ministry to cease. You have not achieved that yet.

When Jesus said about the mansions prepared for us in Heaven, He said if it were not so, He would have told us. Therefore, if the supernatural gifts were meant to be just temporary and would cease after the Church was established, He would have told us straight out. But in the absence anything that He has said, to try and prove that the supernatural gifts have ceased, cessationists have to twist the Scriptures out of context and try to make them say something different to what was originally meant. That's what false prophets and teachers do. They misquote and twist the Scriptures to support their jealous and envious attitudes toward successful ministries because seeing the effectiveness of them shows them up for the barrenness of their own spiritual lives and ministries. They hate seeing multitudes saved and healed through the ministries of others, that they want to happen in their own, and so they pour out their prejudice and hatred on godly preachers and teachers, who might have some minor flaw in their teaching, which doesn't detract from the godly preaching they do to great effect to tens of thousands of people.

Most all of your posts are pragmatic and not according to scripture.
I listed several passages that you seek to dismiss without considering them. I offered them in separate posts. Go back and interact with each one, then I will see where you are missing it.
Oscar....you can go to the kiwi beach and wave your arms, and flap them like a bird while making rhyming noises, and claim that is acceptable worship.
Cain offered the fruit of the ground, strange fire was offered in Leviticus 10.
These "offerings" did not turn out well.
Let us see your ideas on these verses already offered..

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

You suggest that what we are seeing with large numbers of people gathered is an indication of a successful spiritual event.
Go on youtube and watch thousands of demonically inspired Muslims swarm around the kabba..in Mecca. Would you say this is also sucessful?

If you read your responses you cannot have any basis to be critical of this. Are you envious of this because large numbers are there.??

 

[YeshuaFan]

There is nothing that I disagree with so far. The godly men who wrote the 1689 Confession of Faith sincerely believed that the supernatural signs and wonders had actually ceased. I don't have a problem with that. But none of the Scriptures you have quoted indicate that the signs and wonders ceased because God intended them to cease before the Second Coming of Christ. So, I'm looking forward to those Scriptures!

The author of Hebrews seems to be indicating that the sign gifts had waned/ceased at the time of his recording down Hebrews though!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

The author of Hebrews seems to be indicating that the sign gifts had waned/ceased at the time of his recording down Hebrews though!

"seems" and "indicating" doesn't convince me. If Jesus meant for the sign gifts were meant to cease He would have said it plainly, not "indicated" or "hinted" at it.

 

[Dave L]

"seems" and "indicating" doesn't convince me. If Jesus meant for the sign gifts were meant to cease He would have said it plainly, not "indicated" or "hinted" at it.

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18) (KJV 1900)

The only two ways Acts mentions the Holy Spirit being given is through the two outpourings and the hands of an apostle. No Apostles = no more tongues.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

"seems" and "indicating" doesn't convince me. If Jesus meant for the sign gifts were meant to cease He would have said it plainly, not "indicated" or "hinted" at it.

And yet you ignore what is written? You have no verse that says sign gifts continue anywhere ..

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

“And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,” (Acts 8:18) (KJV 1900)

The only two ways Acts mentions the Holy Spirit being given is through the two outpourings and the hands of an apostle. No Apostles = no more tongues.

Show me where Jesus actually said that the Holy Spirit was given only through the original 12 Apostles.

I have come to believe that genuine conversion and the baptism with the Spirit are exactly the same. They involve a total transformation of the heart and spirit. The Acts examples show that conversion and the baptism happened at the exact moment. I am not talking about tongues or the use of any other spiritual gift.

If a believer shows evidence of a true transformation of the heart and spirit toward Christ then he is genuinely converted and therefore filled with the Spirit, which results in the baptism with the Spirit. Whether he uses any of the gifts that come with the Spirit - that is quite another matter.

Therefore, if that is true, no one can be converted if the baptism with the Spirit has to have been conferred by one of the original Apostles.

 

[Dave L]

Show me where Jesus actually said that the Holy Spirit was given only through the original 12 Apostles.

I have come to believe that genuine conversion and the baptism with the Spirit are exactly the same. They involve a total transformation of the heart and spirit. The Acts examples show that conversion and the baptism happened at the exact moment. I am not talking about tongues or the use of any other spiritual gift.

If a believer shows evidence of a true transformation of the heart and spirit toward Christ then he is genuinely converted and therefore filled with the Spirit, which results in the baptism with the Spirit. Whether he uses any of the gifts that come with the Spirit - that is quite another matter.

Therefore, if that is true, no one can be converted if the baptism with the Spirit has to have been conferred by one of the original Apostles.

Find another means in the NT of giving the gifts and you will prove this wrong.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

And yet you ignore what is written? You have no verse that says sign gifts continue anywhere ..

Where is it written? Jesus said that when the Comforter comes He will be with us forever. Nothing about ceasing there. Mark 16 doesn't say, "These signs shall follow those who believe while the original Apostles are still alive".
I don't know whether English is your first or second language, but if a person says one thing and does not mention the opposite, then the first thing he says remains true.
Therefore if Jesus says that the signs will follow those who believe, and Paul teaches what those signs are in 1 Corinthians 12, and nothing is said about them being temporary or going to cease, then common sense tells us that the signs have not ceased.

All the Scriptures you have quoted so far have been out of context and cobbled together to try and prove your point, but they have failed because they have not said anything specific about the sign gifts ceasing. Every indication from what Jesus and Paul have said shows that the sign gifts are meant to continue in the Church until the Second Coming. They actually ceased because of the hypocrisy, godlessness and unbelief of Church leaders who allowed pagan influences to become part of their theology.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Find another means in the NT of giving the gifts and you will prove this wrong.

I have studied the Puritan doctrine of genuine conversion which is the work of the Holy Spirit in the unconverted person, transforming them to be totally committed to Christ. Without that transforming work, the godless person remains dead in their sins until the transforming work is done, and when it is done, the evidence is obvious. In other words the converted believer has not just a Christian profession "badge" on saying "I am a Christian now", but his faith and love for Christ is real and shines out through his life. His wife, children and closest friends will see it and he will be the same at home as he is at church.

When I studied the Wesleyan doctrine of entire Sanctification, which they called the baptism with the Spirit, I found that the results were exactly the same! So I conclude that the Puritan conversion and the Wesleyan entire sanctification were exactly the same Holy Spirit work in a person,

Now here is the really interesting bit.

When I looked closely at the Pentecostal baptism with the Spirit, the outcomes were exactly the same also! So, all three experiences were the same and produced the same outcome in turning an unconverted, godless sinner into a totally committed, holy, godly Christian believer!

No person can have three separate transformation experiences. He is either transformed or not. So the transformation/conversion work of the Holy Spirit is exactly the same in Puritan, Wesleyan and Pentecostal times but called by different names.

So, I say that a genuinely converted Christian is baptised with the Spirit, and a believer baptised with the Spirit is genuinely converted.

This is quite separate from the use of the supernatural gifts. Although I believe that a truly converted/baptised believer can use the gifts. As Paul said, they are used to the proportion of a believer's faith (Romans somewhere). If a genuinely converted believer believes that the gifts have ceased and does not use them, well, that is the proportion of their faith. They are still converted, Spirit-filled believers nevertheless.

 

[Dave L]

I have studied the Puritan doctrine of genuine conversion which is the work of the Holy Spirit in the unconverted person, transforming them to be totally committed to Christ. Without that transforming work, the godless person remains dead in their sins until the transforming work is done, and when it is done, the evidence is obvious. In other words the converted believer has not just a Christian profession "badge" on saying "I am a Christian now", but his faith and love for Christ is real and shines out through his life. His wife, children and closest friends will see it and he will be the same at home as he is at church.

When I studied the Wesleyan doctrine of entire Sanctification, which they called the baptism with the Spirit, I found that the results were exactly the same! So I conclude that the Puritan conversion and the Wesleyan entire sanctification were exactly the same Holy Spirit work in a person,

Now here is the really interesting bit.

When I looked closely at the Pentecostal baptism with the Spirit, the outcomes were exactly the same also! So, all three experiences were the same and produced the same outcome in turning an unconverted, godless sinner into a totally committed, holy, godly Christian believer!

No person can have three separate transformation experiences. He is either transformed or not. So the transformation/conversion work of the Holy Spirit is exactly the same in Puritan, Wesleyan and Pentecostal times but called by different names.

So, I say that a genuinely converted Christian is baptised with the Spirit, and a believer baptised with the Spirit is genuinely converted.

This is quite separate from the use of the supernatural gifts. Although I believe that a truly converted/baptised believer can use the gifts. As Paul said, they are used to the proportion of a believer's faith (Romans somewhere). If a genuinely converted believer believes that the gifts have ceased and does not use them, well, that is the proportion of their faith. They are still converted, Spirit-filled believers nevertheless.

We're talking about tongues and prophecy no longer genuine.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Most all of your posts are pragmatic and not according to scripture.
I listed several passages that you seek to dismiss without considering them. I offered them in separate posts. Go back and interact with each one, then I will see where you are missing it.
Oscar....you can go to the kiwi beach and wave your arms, and flap them like a bird while making rhyming noises, and claim that is acceptable worship.
Cain offered the fruit of the ground, strange fire was offered in Leviticus 10.
These "offerings" did not turn out well.
Let us see your ideas on these verses already offered..

I will. I will enjoy doing that.
When I am out on that beach, I am with God alone, and He has assured me that He loves all my antics! Jonathan Edwards wrote that bodily antics in expressing emotions is meaningful if they are done from the heart, but meaningless if not. If I go over the top I guess it's easier to cool down a fanatic than to warm up a corpse! It beats sitting in church like a silent wooden Indian!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

We're talking about tongues and prophecy no longer genuine.

Paul said in Romans that we prophesy according to the proportion of our faith. So if a person doesn't believe that they are genuine today, then he won't prophesy! Simple as that.
I think we limit Paul's definition of prophecy. If we look carefully at 1 Corinthians 14 we see that Paul's view is more than just getting up and giving "a word" of prophecy. He includes any kind of speaking, teaching, preaching and the sharing of revelation. I have been in meetings where I have sensed that the preacher is speaking directly to me, and I was just one of 400 people, and sitting near the back of the church. I think that was prophetic and would fit into Paul's definition of prophecy.

This is a significant change in my thinking, from my first 12 years of being in a Pentecostal church believing that prophecy was just getting up and giving "prophecies".

 

[Dave L]

Paul said in Romans that we prophesy according to the proportion of our faith. So if a person doesn't believe that they are genuine today, then he won't prophesy! Simple as that.
I think we limit Paul's definition of prophecy. If we look carefully at 1 Corinthians 14 we see that Paul's view is more than just getting up and giving "a word" of prophecy. He includes any kind of speaking, teaching, preaching and the sharing of revelation. I have been in meetings where I have sensed that the preacher is speaking directly to me, and I was just one of 400 people, and sitting near the back of the church. I think that was prophetic and would fit into Paul's definition of prophecy.

This is a significant change in my thinking, from my first 12 years of being in a Pentecostal church believing that prophecy was just getting up and giving "prophecies".

Paul says; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)

Notice, when Jesus is revealed he will also confirm us to the end, placing his revelation before the end. So this Revelation is not at the end of the world as charismatics say.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

John uses the same Greek word as Paul speaking of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

So John's book of Revelation is the same revelation Paul spoke of. Telling believers to come behind in any gift until then.

 

[whereloveandmercymeet]

Jonathan Edwards wrote that bodily antics in expressing emotions is meaningful if they are done from the heart, but meaningless if not.

It really bugs me when people don’t like worship unless it’s part of some prescribed format. There’s a really lovely, very dedicated Christian young lady (20) in my church who is disabled. She can’t sing as part of worship so she dances around the church. Sometimes she brings beautiful banners and flags that she makes herself with gorgeous symbols on them. The cross. A dove. Rainbow. Is her worship any less meaningful than others? Heck no! If anything it could be more because at least it’s genuine and heartfelt.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Paul says; “so that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ; who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye be unreproveable in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. God is faithful, through whom ye were called into the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:7–9)

Notice, when Jesus is revealed he will also confirm us to the end, placing his revelation before the end. So this Revelation is not at the end of the world as charismatics say.

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show unto his servants, even the things which must shortly come to pass: and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John;” (Revelation 1:1)

John uses the same Greek word as Paul speaking of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.

602. ἀποκάλυψις apŏkalupsis, ap-ok-al´-oop-sis; from 601; disclosure:—appearing, coming, lighten, manifestation, be revealed, revelation.

Strong, J. (2009). A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Greek Testament and The Hebrew Bible (Vol. 1, p. 14).

So John's book of Revelation is the same revelation Paul spoke of. Telling believers to come behind in any gift until then.

Isn't that what good preaching does?