How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Hank77

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But if faith becomes a condition you must meet for salvation, the gospel becomes law and faith becomes a work.
I think it's pretty obvious just from Eph. 2:8-9 that if there is no grace there is no salvation and if there is no faith there is no salvation and seeing the salvation is not of works then neither grace or faith can be a work by the one being saved.
 
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Hank77

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Can we refuse? Perhaps some can. However, by my own experience, it was an irresistible call. I simply and suddenly felt overwhelming guilt and shame for the wickedness I was part of and did.

When I consider back, God had placed many seeds in my thoughts and through my life. He never intended me to be lost, and it is likely He had been calling me for longer than I can recall. Did I have the will to leave the phone on the hook and even pick it up and answer with a negative? It seems I did. However, thank God that God is persistent, else I'd be damned.
Now this experience I recognize, all of it.
 
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Hank77

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But we become our own savior if it depends on us?
If you are a drowning man and someone puts out their hand to pull you into a boat and you take that hand are you saving yourself? No one would but a died in the wool narcissist would make that claim.
 
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BCsenior

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The way the gospel works.
Actually, you don't understand.

You know, what's really neat is ...
the Lord CONFIRMS what's in His word
with my personal spiritual experiences.

Just for example:
While evangelizing in Eastern Europe, Jesus said,
"I'm sending you to the elect, who need to hear the gospel before they can respond to it."
(Rather obvious isn't it?)

Then, a few years later, while evangelizing in Eastern Europe, He said,
"I'm also sending you to the non-elect, because I don't want them complaining at their judgment that they were never told."

Now, this is tricky ...
(as are several other controversial topics).
The above appears to be all about peoples' free-will.
But, we have NT verses where Paul says to believers:
"You were chosen and called to ...".

WAS EVERYONE CHOSEN AND CALLED???

NO ...
Father God chose & called just some of us human beings!
Let's all say "WOW!" together.
 
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Dave L

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Actually, you don't understand.

You know, what's really neat is ...
the Lord CONFIRMS what's in His word
with my personal spiritual experiences.

Just for example:
While evangelizing in Eastern Europe, Jesus said,
"I'm sending you to the elect, who need to hear the gospel before they can respond to it."
(Rather obvious isn't it?)

Then, a few years later, while evangelizing in Eastern Europe, He said,
"I'm also sending you to the non-elect, because I don't want them complaining at their judgment that they were never told."
God doesn't speak to people apart from his written word.
 
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BCsenior

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God doesn't speak to people apart from his written word.
You have been deceived big-time!
Just like those who have been brainwashed with
the horrendous false teaching of cessationism that
the Spirit baptism and the 9 power spiritual gifts
ceased at the end of the apostolic age!


Many many millions of BACs around the world
hear from God on a very regular basis ... and
"know" that the red above is from the very pits of hell.

Having a personal relationship with both Father God
and Jesus Christ is a requirement for salvation
(John 17:3, John 10:27, etc.).

Try it some time, you might just like it!
 
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bling

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But God hates the wicked in some pretty serious ways without the least love for them.
How do you know He does not still feel sorry for them, hurt over their loss?
Lazarus had a really hard life, Job went through lots of pain and loss, and God really got upset with the Jews on occasion, but they could be grafted back in?
 
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Dave L

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How do you know He does not still feel sorry for them, hurt over their loss?
Lazarus had a really hard life, Job went through lots of pain and loss, and God really got upset with the Jews on occasion, but they could be grafted back in?
We have only his word to base our views on.
 
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Dave L

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You have been deceived big-time!

Many many millions of BACs around the world
hear from God on a very regular basis!

Having a personal relationship with both Father God
and Jesus Christ is a requirement for salvation
(John 17:3, John 10:27, etc.).

Try it some time, you might just like it!
The prophetic gifts ceased with the apostles who distributed them through the laying on of their hands. Apart from the two outpourings and the apostles, scripture knows of no other means of distribution.
 
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BCsenior

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The prophetic gifts ceased with the apostles who distributed them through the laying on of their hands. Apart from the two outpourings and the apostles, scripture knows of no other means of distribution.
Actually, one reason for the false doctrine of cessationism is that many church leaders back in the day were NOT graced with the Spirit baptism and subsequent spiritual power gifts, and were jealous, etc. of those who had been given these gifts!

Jesus gives the Spirit baptism of special anointing
for ministry to only relatively few BACs!
The rest are to honor His choices,
and carry on with their Christian walk.
Good Luck, Jesus!

Why? ...
Why, there's that little issue with man having free will.
 
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Dave L

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Actually, one reason for the false doctrine of cessationism is that many church leaders back in the day were NOT graced with the Spirit baptism and subsequent spiritual power gifts, and were jealous, etc. of those who had been given these gifts!
This is not true. If you stick with scripture alone, you have the full revelation Christ provided therein.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)
 
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BCsenior

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All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16–17) (KJV 1900)
Gee, I'm a great proponent of that passage as well.
It has nothing to do with subsequent words, revelations, etc.
A Heads-Up ... to grow in your spiritual walk on that narrow path, etc. it is necessary for you to be OPEN to instruction directly from the Lord, or from whomever
He might send to you!

Guess what's also relevant for today ...
the 5-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11).
These specially-anointed church leaders are to teach
the other BACs whatever they need for their spiritual understanding and growth.

All of this in the church was NEVER to cease!
That's ridiculous ... and it's from the very pits of hell.
 
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Hank77

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You are born again or you could not believe. More importantly, Christ died especially for you or you could not believe.
Please explain why Paul said this.....
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

John Wesley and Charles Wesley wrote about verse 5:20. No one could say that either man thought he had done anything to save himself.

John Wesley.....
“What unparalleled condescension and divinely tender mercies are displayed in this verse! Did the judge ever beseech a condemned criminal to accept of pardon? Does the creditor ever beseech a ruined debtor to receive an acquittance in full? Yet our almighty Lord, and our eternal Judge, not only vouchsafes to offer these blessings, but invites us, entreats us, and with the most tender importunity solicits us not to reject them.” The Rev. J. Wesley’s notes in loc.
This sentiment is farther expressed in the following beautiful poetic version of this place, by the Rev. Charles Wesley: -
“God, the offended God most high,
Ambassadors to rebels sends;
His messengers his place supply,
And Jesus begs us to be friends.
Us, in the stead of Christ, they pray,
Us, in the stead of Christ, entreat,
To cast our arms, our sins, away,
And find forgiveness at his feet.
Our God, in Christ, thine embassy
And proffer’d mercy we embrace;
And, gladly reconciled to thee,
Thy condescending mercy praise.
Poor debtors, by our Lord’s request
A full acquittance we receive;
And criminals, with pardon blest,
We, at our Judge’s instance, live.”
 
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Dave L

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Please explain why Paul said this.....
2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

John Wesley and Charles Wesley wrote about verse 5:20. No one could say that either man thought he had done anything to save himself.

John Wesley.....
“What unparalleled condescension and divinely tender mercies are displayed in this verse! Did the judge ever beseech a condemned criminal to accept of pardon? Does the creditor ever beseech a ruined debtor to receive an acquittance in full? Yet our almighty Lord, and our eternal Judge, not only vouchsafes to offer these blessings, but invites us, entreats us, and with the most tender importunity solicits us not to reject them.” The Rev. J. Wesley’s notes in loc.
This sentiment is farther expressed in the following beautiful poetic version of this place, by the Rev. Charles Wesley: -
“God, the offended God most high,
Ambassadors to rebels sends;
His messengers his place supply,
And Jesus begs us to be friends.
Us, in the stead of Christ, they pray,
Us, in the stead of Christ, entreat,
To cast our arms, our sins, away,
And find forgiveness at his feet.
Our God, in Christ, thine embassy
And proffer’d mercy we embrace;
And, gladly reconciled to thee,
Thy condescending mercy praise.
Poor debtors, by our Lord’s request
A full acquittance we receive;
And criminals, with pardon blest,
We, at our Judge’s instance, live.”
The catch is in "be reconciled to God" and the different instructions the believer might hear as being the way to go about this. We can read "free will" into it and turn the gospel into law, and deny salvation by grace. Or we can call for repentance of all believers. Believers are saved, or they wouldn't believe, so we do not cloud the issue telling them to repent.
 
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Dave L

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Gee, I'm a great proponent of that passage as well.
It has nothing to do with subsequent words, revelations, etc.
A Heads-Up ... to grow in your spiritual walk on that narrow path, etc. it is necessary for you to be OPEN to instruction directly from the Lord, or from whomever
He might send to you!

Guess what's also relevant for today ...
the 5-fold ministry (Ephesians 4:11).
These specially-anointed church leaders are to teach
the other BACs whatever they need for their spiritual understanding and growth.

All of this in the church was NEVER to cease!
That's ridiculous ... and it's from the very pits of hell.
Scripture does not support continued revelation.
 
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martymonster

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If there's no free will than God's a sick twisted sadist unworthy of worship. He is an unjust tyrant if that's the case

Of course, there is freewill, and God is a perfect being who only does what is right, so he is worthy of our entire selves.


I hear what you're saying, but it's not the absence of "Free will" that would make God a Tyrant, but the Hellfire doctrine. Most people reject God's sovereignty because of the doctrine of eternal punishment, which simply not scriptural. I'm not entirely sure about what his angle is, to be honest, but he's got the part right, about Free Will not being at thing.
 
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BCsenior

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Scripture does not support continued revelation.
Of course, Paul and Peter, etc. were writing to
existing churches, re: their walk and their problems.
They weren't writing much about the future,
except to warn about false doctrines which would be coming. You know, like the ones you believe in.

It was obvious to them that their beliefs, doctrines, experiences, etc. were for all time, and were NOT
to be deviated from. But, it's not obvious to you.
Please ...
listen to those who have been anointed to teach you.
 
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Strange Plane

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God doesn't speak to people apart from his written word.
My experiences contradict this, Dave. God does communicate to me.

For example, recently I was spending all my time, researching red-pill topics. I must have lost focus and become blinded because God corrected me.

First, I was drawn to a video, explaining how it's easy to get caught up in the labyrinth of "truth seeking" and lose focus on Jesus Christ. Second, a dream, themed around the exact same issue. Third, a physical piece of paper I found at my work, sitting on a shelf. It had a Bible verse on it, specifically regarding keeping one's eyes on Jesus Christ.

I count this experience as God telling me to beware and giving me clear instruction on where to keep my focus.
 
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