How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

BNR32FAN

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Why do you think God wants to save all? Could he not save all if he wanted to, being omnipotent?

Brother Dave please explain why Jesus warned His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him if they were undoubtedly chosen by God and are incapable of turning away from Him.
 
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bcbsr

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Whosoever believes is a characteristic of those whom God saves. If it is a condition they must meet, the gospel becomes law and salvation is by works.
"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
(The jailer asking for the condition for salvation - what he must DO)
Answer given to him:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"
Acts 16:30,31

Well that's one of a multitude of verses which show you're mistaken.
 
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Dave L

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Brother Dave please explain why Jesus warned His faithful 11 apostles to abide in Him if they were undoubtedly chosen by God and are incapable of turning away from Him.
We know of our salvation by it's fruits. The warnings keep us moving in the right direction and obedience verifies our position in Christ. We cannot believe God saved us if we do not live a saved lifestyle.
 
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Dave L

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"Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
(The jailer asking for the condition for salvation - what he must DO)
Answer given to him:
"Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved"
Acts 16:30,31

Well that's one of a multitude of verses which show you're mistaken.
The Jailer believed (was saved) before asking Paul for directions. He would not have asked otherwise.
 
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Dave-W

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Why do you think God wants to save all?
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
 
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eleos1954

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The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

define believe - what is it that makes a person a believer?
 
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Dave-W

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The Jailer believed (was saved) before asking Paul for directions.
So in your opinion his query was wasted. If he was already saved why did he have to ask HOW to be saved?

You are putting your spin on the scripture rather than taking it at its plain face value.
 
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Dave L

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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
“The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.” (2 Peter 3:9) (NASB95)

"You" = second person plural = the believers Paul spoke to at the time.
 
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bcbsr

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I tend to agree. I don't see how freely choosing to believe the Gospel and Jesus as Son of God is or can be seen as any kind of work, anyway. What's there to brag about? What's there to say that you worked for your salvation in simply responding positively to the Holy Spirit's calling?

I just don't get this Calvinistic thinking that the OP seems to suggest, that people who choose to believe when prompted have suddenly made the Gospel about themselves and not God or something, or that God's sovereignty is threatened or undermined in any way. Again, what is the work or thing to be proud of in any way in simply saying "Yes, Jesus! I would love to have this gift that You freely offer! Thank you!" Well, whoop-tee-do, what a great work we mortal shave done in this (note my sarcasm). How does that mean we will suddenly think we have saved ourselves and end up taking Jesus or God the Father out of the equation? Or turned salvation into something we earned through the mere obedience of believing? We don't earn it; eternal life and forgiveness of sins is something freely offered, and we accept or reject it, more or less. And regardless of the choice we make, God is still God and in control.
Good point. Paul also makes that point:
"to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness." Rom 4:5 and in the same context "if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Rom 4:2,3 And it says in Eph 2:8,9 "it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

Thus though faith is someone you do, out of your free will, it is not a work and not something you can boast about. To boast of saving faith is like someone handing you a free gift and your act of reaching out and taking it as the payment for that free gift, which you earned by reaching out and taking it. That's just foolishness, but that's Calvinism - they classify believing as a work whereby one earns salvation.
 
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Dave L

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So in your opinion his query was wasted. If he was already saved why did he have to ask HOW to be saved?

You are putting your spin on the scripture rather than taking it at its plain face value.
Asking directions = smart. Not asking questions = dumb.
 
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Johnny4ChristJesus

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This is not true. People choose what they want based on the reason God uses to determine their choice.

Salvation is by grace alone even if we think we saved ourselves.

What you keep missing is that the majority of people you are claiming "save themselves" don't believe that they do. Most of us, if not all of us, believe that without what God does, it would be impossible for any of us to be saved. So, I don't understand why you keep trying to make this false claim.

My choice doesn't save me. God does. My choice only accepts what He did for me. And that choice is available to everyone, because of what He did for everyone, not just for me.
 
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Dave-W

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"You" = second person plural = the believers Paul spoke to at the time.
"ANY" means everyone. "ALL" means everyone.
Not just the readers of his letter.
 
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Dave L

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What you keep missing is that the majority of people you are claiming "save themselves" don't believe that they do. Most of us, if not all of us, believe that without what God does, it would be impossible for any of us to be saved. So, I don't understand why you keep trying to make this false claim.

My choice doesn't save me. God does. My choice only accepts what He did for me. And that choice is available to everyone, because of what He did for everyone, not just for me.
If salvation depends on your response to an "offer", you are the savior.
 
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BNR32FAN

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We know of our salvation by it's fruits. The warnings keep us moving in the right direction and obedience verifies our position in Christ. We cannot believe God saved us if we do not live a saved lifestyle.

But the apostles are undoubtedly chosen by God so this message according to Calvinism is completely irrelevant because no one who is in the vine (Jesus) would ever be cut off.
 
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Dave-W

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If salvation depends on your response to an "offer", you are the savior.
That is a twisted viewpoint. If my 5 year old grandson wants to do a slam dunk of a basketball in a 10 foot regulation basket, and I lift him up to put the ball in, is he doing it or am I?

Per your logic, he is doing it without me. WRONG!
 
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bcbsr

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The Jailer believed (was saved) before asking Paul for directions. He would not have asked otherwise.
That's your assumption, and it doesn't even defend your position.

A person has to hear the gospel to be saved.

"How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent?" Rom 10:14,15

Take Cornelius for example. The angel said to him, "Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He will bring you a message through which you and all your household will be saved.’" Acts 11:14 Thus Cornelius wasn't saved prior to hearing the gospel.

In contrast the Calvinist position is that people are born saved. And thus your position that a person doesn't have to hear the gospel to be saved.
 
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