How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Yes, that's what I believe. That passage outlines compatibilist free will. Our choices are all predestined by God, but we always want to make the choice that we do make, and in that sense we have free will, and are responsible for our actions.

This is of course different from libertarian free will, which is what Arminians believe in.

How are you responsible for something when you are created in such a way that you can't help but choose what was already predetermined for you? If you want to do it, because that deep must-be-quenched desire is put in you by God, so you are unable to make any other choice, how are you then responsible?

If I am running a puppet show and I pick one of my puppets to be the bad guy, I can punish him for being the bad guy, but I was the one pulling the strings. He's only a puppet, it won't hurt anything, but I have to live with the fact that I falsely blame the puppet for what originated in my heart. I see no difference between what you are saying and the claim that God is the puppet-master in my example.

 

[Dave L]

Knowledge is not a work it is simply an understanding.

This is true. When a person hears the gospel either they believe it or they do not. Those who believe have eternal life and those who do not believe, don't, at least for now. But only those who believe will choose to believe if told to do so. But it is redundant because they must already believe or they would not choose to believe.

 

[Dave L]

No free will = God is responsible for all who will burn in the lake of fire having never given these people the opportunity for salvation which contradicts John 3:16-17 1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9 and many other verses of scripture.

This is not true. People choose what they want based on the reason God uses to determine their choice.

 

[Dave L]

The way is Jesus.

Our Apostle Paul says, we were saved

"through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (in Titus 3:5).

So, Dave, I see from this > first we were washed, then renewed in our nature. Then we could obey God, however He desires.

So, our wills needed to be washed and renewed. We in sin needed renewed wills; then we could choose in the way God wants. And >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Jesus says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (in John 6:29)

Without Jesus we were love-dead puppets of Satan > Ephesians 2:2 > in slavery to "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15; so in sin we were not alive and we were not free.

But God made us alive, "who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1).

In Jesus we are alive in love so we can make live choices . . . in sharing with God who works in our wills > "to will and to do for His good pleasure."

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, our wills if we are saved have been joined to Jesus in us. So, we are no longer free from God so we can make our own choices in love-dead separation from God.

Salvation is by grace alone even if we think we saved ourselves.

 

[Dave L]

No argument on that. But He will not save us against our will.

Joshua 24:15
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

We have to choose to call. That is on US, not HIM.
Calling and choosing are relational, what you suggest is NOT relational at all.

“for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (ESV)

 

[Dave-W]

“for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (ESV)

Indeed. But we must cooperate with Him in that.

 

[Dave L]

Indeed. But we must cooperate with Him in that.

He gives us a new heart that loves God and people.

 

[Dave-W]

He gives us a new heart that loves God and people.

But He does not force that on us.

Hebrews 4:7
He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

If we choose to harden against HIM, it stops that process.

 

[BNR32FAN]

But that doesn't abrogate being obedient to your heavenly Father. That is the problem here, most Christians have done away with the law and don't realize that that is the definition of lawlessness which Messiah himself warned us against. Remember the story where they come to him saying, "Lord Lord have we not don't ___ in your name?" And he says, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity." Remember that... the word for iniquity is anomia, which literally means "without law."

We we are not saved by works or obedience... but the saved work and obey. That is the balance being presented.

I couldn’t agree more. So many people see that we are not saved by obedience to the law and confuse that with meaning we don’t have to obey the law. That is not the case. The same goes for works. We are not saved by works but that doesn’t mean we don’t have to do works. Faith produces both repentance and good works. If a person fails to repent and do good works that is evidence that they do not have faith. We are saved by faith. Faith is basically devotion according to the definition of the Greek word pistis. The definition of pistis is not only believing and trusting in Jesus as our savior but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, loyalty, and fidelity. These are all qualities of devotion. Devotion is not a work however devotion does cause one to produce works. This is why we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind again this implies devotion. When we adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit we desire to serve God. You are absolutely right about Matthew 7:21-23 brother Ken. Another example would be Matthew 25:31-46. The goats were condemned because they didn’t do good works. Hence my favorite chapter John 15:1-10 the goats did not abide in Christ. So many people want to add to what these scriptures say to make it fit into their system of belief instead of taking it for what it actually says. I see so many people saying these people were condemned because they didn’t believe but that’s not what is said at all in these verses. Which is why I think John 15:1-10 is such a powerful message because Jesus is speaking only to His faithful 11 apostles when He warns them to abide in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (Jesus) and thrown into the fire to be burned. There is no question whether the faithful 11 apostles believed or not.

 

[Dave L]

But He does not force that on us.

Hebrews 4:7
He again fixes a certain day, “Today,” saying through David after so long a time just as has been said before, “Today if you hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.”

If we choose to harden against HIM, it stops that process.

But, we cannot understand the things of God apart from it.
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) (KJV 1900)

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

“for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:13) (ESV)

Still taking verses out of context I see Dave. You missed the part before what you posted:

"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...

 

[BNR32FAN]

He gives us a new heart that loves God and people.

If God wants everyone to be saved then why didn’t He give everyone that new heart?

 

[Dave L]

Still taking verses out of context I see Dave. You missed the part before what you posted:

"So then, my beloved, even as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling...

Yes, and this we do as a result of salvation, not as the means.

 

[Dave L]

If God wants everyone to be saved then why didn’t He give everyone that new heart?

Why do you think God wants to save all? Could he not save all if he wanted to, being omnipotent?

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is not true. People choose what they want based on the reason God uses to determine their choice.

Again since God wants everyone to be saved then why does God give everyone the reasons to determine their choice?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Yes, and this we do as a result of salvation, not as the means.

It is still a choice WE ALL have to make...we are offered it.

 

[Ken Rank]

I couldn’t agree more. So many people see that we are not saved by obedience to the law and confuse that with meaning we don’t have to obey the law. That is not the case. The same goes for works. We are not saved by works but that doesn’t mean we don’t have to do works. Faith produces both repentance and good works. If a person fails to repent and do good works that is evidence that they do not have faith. We are saved by faith. Faith is basically devotion according to the definition of the Greek word pistis. The definition of pistis is not only believing and trusting in Jesus as our savior but also faithfulness, trustworthiness, loyalty, and fidelity. These are all qualities of devotion. Devotion is not a work however devotion does cause one to produce works. This is why we are called to love God with all our heart, soul, and mind again this implies devotion. When we adhere to the guidance of the Holy Spirit we desire to serve God. You are absolutely right about Matthew 7:21-23 brother Ken. Another example would be Matthew 25:31-46. The goats were condemned because they didn’t do good works. Hence my favorite chapter John 15:1-10 the goats did not abide in Christ. So many people want to add to what these scriptures say to make it fit into their system of belief instead of taking it for what it actually says. I see so many people saying these people were condemned because they didn’t believe but that’s not what is said at all in these verses. Which is why I think John 15:1-10 is such a powerful message because Jesus is speaking only to His faithful 11 apostles when He warns them to abide in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from the vine (Jesus) and thrown into the fire to be burned. There is no question whether the faithful 11 apostles believed or not.

Well said. Faith is dead without works... and that is true even if that stands against our theology. Faith comes by hearing, and is dead without works... so we hear and act on what we hear. The hearing is the unseen and the action that results from hearing is the manifestation of the unseen. So whether it is hearing and obeying a command, or hearing and obeying a calling, or hearing and obeying anything else God's directs us in.... that is faith and the just live by faith. If we remove obedience and works, then we have, unknowingly, destroyed faith.

 

[Dave L]

It is still a choice WE ALL have to make...we are offered it.

I do not see salvation offered to any in the NT. Only announced (preached) to those who believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why do you think God wants to save all? Could he not save all if he wanted to, being omnipotent?

Because God desires our love. Love is a gift given freely not a reaction or performing a programmed response. The only way God can receive our love is if we give it to Him freely of our own choice.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

I do not see salvation offered to any in the NT. Only announced (preached) to those who believe.

You can't believe in something without hearing of it first...and then you have to make a choice, whether to believe it or not. Dave are you a Calvinist...that would explain a lot...