How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[Dave L]

Free will doesn't destroy the Gospel. The Gospel you present is only good news to those who are truly chosen. Nobody else has any hope. They are in or out and it is completely out of their hands. Great news for those who are in. Terrible news for those who aren't.

In contrast, free will means that God has allowed everyone to make a choice and they live with the consequences of the choice they make. But, He provided a way for all who will choose Him.

God is the reason behind people choosing what they do. Reason precedes the choice.

 

[Dave-W]

Whosoever believes is a characteristic of those whom God saves. If it is a condition they must meet, the gospel becomes law and salvation is by works.

That is clearly NOT how Paul thought about "works." Taken in your light, even faith is a "work."

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

 

[Dave-W]

Whosoever believes is a characteristic of those whom God saves. If it is a condition they must meet, the gospel becomes law and salvation is by works.

The problem with this thinking is it loses the understanding of salvation by COVENANT.

When you try to define salvation as "faith only" or "by works" you enter a realm of thought that would make no sense to a first century Jew, New covenant or other wise. BTW - ALL of the New Testament authors were first century Jews.

 

[Dave L]

That is clearly NOT how Paul thought about "works." Taken in your light, even faith is a "work."

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”

You can read "whosoever believes" two ways. As a trait of the saved, or as a condition for those who think the gospel is law they must obey.

 

[Dave L]

The problem with this thinking is it loses the understanding of salvation by COVENANT.

The New Covenant = law written in heart = love for God and people. Those who have the law written believe the gospel when they hear it.

 

[Dave-W]

The New Covenant = law written in heart = love for God and people. Those who have the law written believe the gospel when they hear it.

No - that flies in the face of the first century understanding of what a covenant entailed.

It was/is a solemn and binding agreement between 2 or more parties, usually with witnesses to verify the covenant.

 

[Dave L]

No - that flies in the face of the first century understanding of what a covenant entailed.

It was/is a solemn and binding agreement between 2 or more parties, usually with witnesses to verify the covenant.

It is a blood covenant through the death of the giver, Christ.
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” (Hebrews 9:16) (KJV 1900)

 

[FenderTL5]

..we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

In other words, you have no choice in the matter but God allows the perception that you do.

 

[Dave-W]

Both the concepts of salvation being a done deal before we were created and salvation being a "law to be obeyed;" misses the point of covenant: relationship. We cannot have a relationship with a "law," neither can we have a relationship with an arbitrary decision made eons ago.

Covenant requires personal interaction between the parties.

 

[Dave-W]

It is a blood covenant through the death of the giver, Christ.
“For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” (Hebrews 9:16) (KJV 1900)

That is only a part of what is entailed. It describes only one aspect of covenant.

 

[Dave L]

In other words, you have no choice in the matter but God allows the perception that you do.

A reason must exist before we can choose. That is, we always choose for the reason that precedes our choice. So God provides the reason behind people choosing what they do.

 

[Dave L]

That is only a part of what is entailed. It describes only one aspect of covenant.

It still comes down to God saving us, and not we ourselves.

 

[TuxAme]

Contrary to latter-century belief, free will is necessary for the gospel to "work", because we cannot rightly be punished for anything if we are not in control of ourselves, nor can we rightly be rewarded for just doing what we are being forced to do. "Puppetry" (denying free will) is only the "logical end" of denying the role of works in salvation.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

In other words, you have no choice in the matter but God allows the perception that you do.

Do you believe that, too--OR are you just clarifying his position?

 

[Dave-W]

It still comes down to God saving us, and not we ourselves.

No argument on that. But He will not save us against our will.

Joshua 24:15
If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

Romans 10:13
for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

We have to choose to call. That is on US, not HIM.
Calling and choosing are relational, what you suggest is NOT relational at all.

 

[FenderTL5]

Do you believe that, too--OR are you just clarifying his position?

No, I don't believe in a manipulative and deceitful God.

 

[com7fy8]

So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

The way is Jesus.

Our Apostle Paul says, we were saved

"through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit" (in Titus 3:5).

So, Dave, I see from this > first we were washed, then renewed in our nature. Then we could obey God, however He desires.

So, our wills needed to be washed and renewed. We in sin needed renewed wills; then we could choose in the way God wants. And >

"for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." (Philippians 2:13)

Jesus says, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent." (in John 6:29)

Without Jesus we were love-dead puppets of Satan > Ephesians 2:2 > in slavery to "fear of death" > Hebrews 2:14-15; so in sin we were not alive and we were not free.

But God made us alive, "who were dead in trespasses and sins" (Ephesians 2:1).

In Jesus we are alive in love so we can make live choices . . . in sharing with God who works in our wills > "to will and to do for His good pleasure."

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

So, our wills if we are saved have been joined to Jesus in us. So, we are no longer free from God so we can make our own choices in love-dead separation from God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Free Will = salvation by works.

No free will = God is responsible for all who will burn in the lake of fire having never given these people the opportunity for salvation which contradicts John 3:16-17 1 Timothy 2:3-4 2 Peter 3:9 and many other verses of scripture.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Whosoever believes is a characteristic of those whom God saves. If it is a condition they must meet, the gospel becomes law and salvation is by works.

Knowledge is not a work it is simply an understanding.

 

[Ken Rank]

All I know is that Jesus came to show that there is a way ABOVE the law - ABOVE just what's right or wrong. If we still depended on the law, like back in the Old Testament days, I'm sure that most, if not all of us would have a one way ticket straight to Hell.

But that doesn't abrogate being obedient to your heavenly Father. That is the problem here, most Christians have done away with the law and don't realize that that is the definition of lawlessness which Messiah himself warned us against. Remember the story where they come to him saying, "Lord Lord have we not don't ___ in your name?" And he says, "Depart from me you workers of iniquity." Remember that... the word for iniquity is anomia, which literally means "without law."

We we are not saved by works or obedience... but the saved work and obey. That is the balance being presented.