How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

[Dave L]

The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

 

[Radagast]

How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

You mean libertarian free will.

 

[Benama]

All I know is that Jesus came to show that there is a way ABOVE the law - ABOVE just what's right or wrong. If we still depended on the law, like back in the Old Testament days, I'm sure that most, if not all of us would have a one way ticket straight to Hell.

 

[CodyFaith]

If there's no free will than God's a sick twisted sadist unworthy of worship. He is an unjust tyrant if that's the case

Of course, there is freewill, and God is a perfect being who only does what is right, so he is worthy of our entire selves.

 

[CodyFaith]

The way the gospel works is that God offers all of humanity salvation through Jesus Christ his Son's sacrifice on the cross. Those who out of their own freewill humble themselves and seek forgiveness, grace and mercy for their sins will out of their own free will choose to accept Christ's atonement for their sins. Once they accept God's salvation, they recieve eternal life and will go to Heaven when they die - they made a once and for all choice accepting the work on the cross for payment of their past, present and future sins.

Only those aware that their sin is their own moral freewill responsibility will see the need for grace and mercy.

Those who out of their own freewill reject salvation, have rejected the love of God in their heart and are eternally damned. They did not accept moral rrsponsibility for their sins.

 

[Dave-W]

How Free Will Destroys the Gospel

Without free will, preaching the gospel is pointless. No free will assumes some are saved from before creation and others are destined for hell before creation. Nothing we can say or do will change that, unless there is freedom to choose to follow or not.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Those who out of their own freewill humble themselves and seek forgiveness, grace and mercy for their sins will out of their own free will choose to accept Christ's atonement for their sins. Once they accept God's salvation, they recieve eternal life and will go to Heaven when they die - they made a once and for all choice accepting the work on the cross for payment of their past, present and future sins.

Only those aware that their sin is their own moral freewill responsibility will see the need for grace and mercy.

Those who out of their own freewill reject salvation, have rejected the love of God in their heart and are eternally damned. They did not accept moral rrsponsibility for their sins.

Don't think Paul of the bible did any of those things before being saved?

It was an unwanted rough donkey ride!

Free will -- nope.

M-Bob

 

[Dave L]

Without free will, preaching the gospel is pointless. No free will assumes some are saved from before creation and others are destined for hell before creation. Nothing we can say or do will change that, unless there is freedom to choose to follow or not.

Free Will = salvation by works.

 

[Dave L]

First of all the fatalistic Calvinist position of reckoning people as mere puppets does much more in the way of destroying the gospel and putting God in a bad light. But Calvinists are largely hypocrites with regards to the presentation of the gospel. How should a Calvinist logically respond to the Philippian jailor's question, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" The Calvinists should respond according to his theology - "You can't do anything to be saved. Your salvation status was predetermined prior to you being born and there's nothing you can do about it.". In fact under Calvinism there is no need to be saved where people are not saved by faith, but rather by a pre-birth election. For if the elect are predestined for eternal life or eternal damnation prior to even their birth, then nothing in this life changes that status. And thus Calvinists discredit faith, claiming that faith isn't a requirement for salvation but rather simply reveals who the elect are.

Secondly concerning this postulation that faith is a work. Paul makes a distinction between faith and works and classifies faith as not a work.

Rom 4:5 "to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness"

Eph 2:8,9 it is by grace you have been saved, through faith— and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Thus while faith is doing something, it is not classified as a work. And thus Calvinism is anti-gospel.

Whosoever believes is a characteristic of those whom God saves. If it is a condition they must meet, the gospel becomes law and salvation is by works.

 

[Radagast]

Free Will = salvation by works.

Well, no, actually.

I'm a Calvinist. I reject salvation by works. I accept compatibilist free will (but not libertarian free will).

 

[Dave L]

You mean libertarian free will.

Not entirely. We freely choose based on the reasons God provides for us to base our choices on.

 

[Radagast]

First of all the fatalistic Calvinist position of reckoning people as mere puppets

That's not what Calvinism teaches.

 

[Dave L]

Well, no, actually.

I'm a Calvinist. I reject salvation by works. I accept compatibilist free will (but not libertarian free will).

If salvation depends on a person'e free choice, the gospel becomes law and the choice becomes a work.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Free Will = salvation by works.

Yes the bible tells me (us) not to get puffed up in and with ourselves.

Little man always wants to think that he has played such a big part in everything.

Relax be humble now.

M-Bob

 

[BNR32FAN]

The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

We’ve discussed this brother Dave John 15:1-10 refutes this idea. As well as 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9

 

[Radagast]

If salvation depends on a person'e free choice, the gospel becomes law and the choice becomes a work.

How does that relate to what I said?

Not entirely. We freely choose based on the reasons God provides for us to base our choices on.

OK. I now have no idea what you are trying to say.

I respectfully suggest that you are just adding confusion to an already heated topic. Perhaps you could word your posts more carefully.

 

[SarahsKnight]

If there's no free will than God's a sick twisted sadist unworthy of worship. He is an unjust tyrant if that's the case

Of course, there is freewill, and God is a perfect being who only does what is right, so he is worthy of our entire selves.

I tend to agree. I don't see how freely choosing to believe the Gospel and Jesus as Son of God is or can be seen as any kind of work, anyway. What's there to brag about? What's there to say that you worked for your salvation in simply responding positively to the Holy Spirit's calling?

I just don't get this Calvinistic thinking that the OP seems to suggest, that people who choose to believe when prompted have suddenly made the Gospel about themselves and not God or something, or that God's sovereignty is threatened or undermined in any way. Again, what is the work or thing to be proud of in any way in simply saying "Yes, Jesus! I would love to have this gift that You freely offer! Thank you!" Well, whoop-tee-do, what a great work we mortals have done in this (note my sarcasm). How does that mean we will suddenly think we have saved ourselves and end up taking Jesus or God the Father out of the equation? Or turned salvation into something we earned through the mere obedience of believing? We don't earn it; eternal life and forgiveness of sins is something freely offered, and we accept or reject it, more or less. And regardless of the choice we make, God is still God and in control.

 

[Dave L]

OK. I now have no idea what you are trying to say.

I respectfully suggest that you are just adding confusion to an already heated topic. Perhaps you could word your posts more carefully.

Since you are a Calvinist, read the Westminster Confession's opening paragraph on Chapter 3

Here is the same in modern English provided by the Orthodox Presbyterian Church.

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

The way I understand this is, we freely choose what we want but our choices always follow the reasons (secondary causes) under God’s control that we base our choices on.

 

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

The way the gospel works. In the gospels, Jesus tells us to preach the gospel. Preaching means to announce. So when people hear the gospel followed by whoever believes has eternal life, those who believe know God saved them. And when told to repent and undergo baptism, it confirms their faith as they follow through.

But, people turn preaching the gospel into an offer of salvation for those who comply. So immediately they turn the gospel into law and make obedience, or works, the means of salvation. They say belief is a choice we must make before God will save us. So these people trust in themselves for choosing salvation and then trust in Christ only in a secondary sense.

Does God save people this way? Yes because salvation is by grace. And they like the first group believed when they heard about salvation through Christ. Had they not believed, they would not have chosen to believe. So either way, whoever believes has eternal life.

Free will doesn't destroy the Gospel. The Gospel you present is only good news to those who are truly chosen. Nobody else has any hope. They are in or out and it is completely out of their hands. Great news for those who are in. Terrible news for those who aren't.

In contrast, free will means that God has allowed everyone to make a choice and they live with the consequences of the choice they make. But, He provided a way for all who will choose Him.

 

[Radagast]

1. God, from all eternity, did—by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will—freely and unchangeably ordain whatever comes to pass. Yet he ordered all things in such a way that he is not the author of sin, nor does he force his creatures to act against their wills; neither is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Yes, that's what I believe. That passage outlines compatibilist free will. Our choices are all predestined by God, but we always want to make the choice that we do make, and in that sense we have free will, and are responsible for our actions.

This is of course different from libertarian free will, which is what Arminians believe in.