Main Problems w "A" or "Post" Millenialism?

[Billy Evmur]

So the gospel deceives the nations?

Now you are just being silly ...because your argument is blown.

 

[Dave L]

Now you are just being silly ...because your argument is blown.

Isn't this what you are saying, Satan is deceiving the nations? Which means you ignore the gospel completely.

 

[DavidPT]

Everyone is resurrected before the judgment. (Both the righteous and the wicked) It seems to me you have to be resurrected before you can stand before the throne. You can't stand there if you're still a corpse.

Like I pointed out though, in the rapture no one dies. Why then does someone that doesn't even die need to be resurrected from the grave in order to be at this judgment?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

John sees nothing but the dead here. Obviously all of these were literally in graves, then rose to life during the resurrection in order to stand before God at this judgment. No one raptured though, would even be in graves to begin with, that being the point. Therefore they can't be counted as being among the dead John sees here. And if they can't be among the dead here, neither can the dead in Christ that rise first.

Out of curiosity, why do you seem to think there is no chronology involved here? How can the great white throne judgment possibly precede certain events, such as the fulfilling of Revelation 19:21 and Revelation 20:9? How can the great white throne judgment possibly precede the last trump, which also involves the rapture of those in Christ who are still physically alive at the time?

 

[Dave L]

Amillennialism is a Roman Catholic doctrine that carried over to the reformation, The RCC has always been historically anti semite ... among their many sins.

So? Dispensationalism came straight from the Jesuits.

 

[BABerean2]

Rev 20 also says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which indicates another resurrection day for others that are dead.

Ignore Christ's words in John 5:27-30, and maybe you can make the Premill doctrine work.

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[ewq1938]

Ignore Christ's words in John 5:27-30, and maybe you can make the Premill doctrine work.

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Nothing there about all of this happening at the same time. Rev 20 shows that it does not happen at the same time. This verse is a problem for Amil:

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

This proves some of the dead lived again, and this other group of dead would "live not again" until a later time period proving two different times where the dead would live again, also known as resurrection.

The entire book of Rev is a problem for Amil, especially chapter 20.

 

[BABerean2]

Nothing there about all of this happening at the same time.

You must have cut the words "hour" and "all" out of your Bible.

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Based on Revelation 16:15-16, and Revelation 19, the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

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[jgr]

Amillennialism is a Roman Catholic doctrine that carried over to the reformation, The RCC has always been historically anti semite ... among their many sins.

Amil was widespread in the historical true Church long before Roman Catholicism.

From Justin Martyr (100 - 165 AD):

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter LXXX)

He was referring to amils, confirming their presence in the historical true Church long before Roman Catholicism's emergence in the 4th century, and acknowledging them as many, pure, pious, and true Christians.

Both amils and historic (also known as classic) premils fellowshiped amicably in the historical true Church, and still do. Eschatologically, their only significant difference is the interpretation of the millennial reign.

Historic premils, in fellowship with amils, categorically reject the eschatological doctrines unique to modernist dispensationalism.

From Wikipedia: "Premillennialism appeared in the available writings of the early church, but it was evident that both views existed side by side. The premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, however, are quite different from the dominant form of modern-day premillennialism, namely dispensational premillennialism."

 

[Erik Nelson]

Yes you are saying the devil is now bound...the scripture does not agree with you, nor do the newspapers or the history books....

The Kingdom began with Christ. And continues eternally.

The Millennium is a 1000 year phase. A 1000 years stage. A 1000 year epoch in the History. Of the Church Kingdom of Christ.

It's like the Golden Age. High Watermark of the church. Before the Millennium. The church is growing and increasing in power. From the cross forward in time. After the Millennium, the church evidently. Suffers under the onslaught of gog and Magog.

Nevertheless, the church exists the entire time. The Kingdom of Christ exists the entire time. Even though there is a 1000 year. Glorious Golden Age in the middle.

Only during that Golden age is Satan bound.

 

[DavidPT]

Amil was widespread in the historical true Church long before Roman Catholicism.

From Justin Martyr (100 - 165 AD):

"I admitted to you formerly, that I and many others are of this opinion [i.e., premillennialism], and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware; but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise." (Dialogue with Trypho, Chapter LXXX)

He was referring to amils, confirming their presence in the historical true Church long before Roman Catholicism's emergence in the 4th century, and acknowledging them as many, pure, pious, and true Christians.

Both amils and historic (also known as classic) premils fellowshiped amicably in the historical true Church, and still do. Eschatologically, their only significant difference is the interpretation of the millennial reign.

Historic premils, in fellowship with amils, categorically reject the eschatological doctrines unique to modernist dispensationalism.

From Wikipedia: "Premillennialism appeared in the available writings of the early church, but it was evident that both views existed side by side. The premillennial beliefs of the early church fathers, however, are quite different from the dominant form of modern-day premillennialism, namely dispensational premillennialism."

While some Premils might deny these facts, I don't. Clearly Justin was referring to Amils just like you pointed out.

 

[DavidPT]

The Kingdom began with Christ. And continues eternally.

The Millennium is a 1000 year phase. A 1000 years stage. A 1000 year epoch in the History. Of the Church Kingdom of Christ.

It's like the Golden Age. High Watermark of the church. Before the Millennium. The church is growing and increasing in power. From the cross forward in time. After the Millennium, the church evidently. Suffers under the onslaught of gog and Magog.

Nevertheless, the church exists the entire time. The Kingdom of Christ exists the entire time. Even though there is a 1000 year. Glorious Golden Age in the middle.

Only during that Golden age is Satan bound.

Can't say I have much of a clue as to what you mean here. You lost me, though I do recall you trying to explain some of these things in the past. You lost me then, too.

 

[LastSeven]

Yep, the living saints are raptured and the dead saints are resurrected at the second coming. Rev 20 also says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which indicates another resurrection day for others that are dead.

Notice that the phrase "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" does not strictly limit that resurrection to "the rest of the dead".

 

[YeshuaFan]

Yep, the living saints are raptured and the dead saints are resurrected at the second coming. Rev 20 also says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" which indicates another resurrection day for others that are dead.

The first resurrection will be for the saved, the second one for the lost...

 

[LastSeven]

Out of curiosity, why do you seem to think there is no chronology involved here? How can the great white throne judgment possibly precede certain events, such as the fulfilling of Revelation 19:21 and Revelation 20:9? How can the great white throne judgment possibly precede the last trump, which also involves the rapture of those in Christ who are still physically alive at the time?

When did I ever suggest the judgment precedes those events?

 

[YeshuaFan]

All of these fit better in the Amillennial position than in any other scheme.

Actually, think that historical premil does that!

 

[LastSeven]

Like I pointed out though, in the rapture no one dies. Why then does someone that doesn't even die need to be resurrected from the grave in order to be at this judgment?

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

John sees nothing but the dead here. Obviously all of these were literally in graves, then rose to life during the resurrection in order to stand before God at this judgment. No one raptured though, would even be in graves to begin with, that being the point. Therefore they can't be counted as being among the dead John sees here. And if they can't be among the dead here, neither can the dead in Christ that rise first.

This is a valid point and I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers. The fact that John refers to these people as "the dead" is a bit of a stumper for me. I could come up with various possible explanations but the truth is I don't really understand why they're referred to as "the dead", given that they've just been resurrected and as you pointed out, presumably some would never even have died in the first place.

However, even with that unexplained, the scriptures are clear that both the righteous and the wicked are raised at the same time, and they are raised on the last day, which means it has to be the second resurrection. Scripture is also clear that we died with Christ and were raised with Christ (spiritually speaking of course) and that is literally the definition of resurrection. And since we, the righteous, don't have to fear the second death this perfectly fits the definition of the first resurrection mentioned in Revelation 20. Also Jesus himself said that he had been given all authority and power after his resurrection which means it can't be denied that he currently reigns, just as we can't deny that we currently reign with Christ as Paul literally told us that we are seated with him in the heavenly realms (spiritually speaking of course).

Given all of that I hardly think the use of the phrase "the dead" in Revelation 20 could make me ignore all those facts. It leaves me wondering what was meant, but it certainly doesn't negate the rest of the scriptural proofs I mentioned.

 

[BABerean2]

Actually, think that historical premil does that!

If you ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and Christ returning "in flaming fire" at His Second Coming in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, then maybe you can make it work.

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[Dave L]

Actually, think that historical premil does that!

It has too many contradictions with Jesus' position on the kingdom.

 

[YeshuaFan]

If you ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and Christ returning "in flaming fire" at His Second Coming in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew 25:31-46, then maybe you can make it work.

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No secret coming as in a Rapture, Jesus returns to deliver judgment upon Satan and earth system, go into millennium , and then turns over to the father for eternal state, fits quite nicely!

 

[BABerean2]

No secret coming as in a Rapture, Jesus returns to deliver judgment upon Satan and earth system, go into millennium , and then turns over to the father for eternal state, fits quite nicely!

2Ti 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"

Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

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