Was the original Catholic Church created by power hungry zealots?

[Root of Jesse]

Evidence for this?

Church Tradition. THis is not authoritative, but it explains it pretty well.
St John in Ephesus

 

[Root of Jesse]

The 12 were not bishops. They were apostles. Bishops are not apostles.

No, but apostles are bishops, and served the same role after the death of Jesus.
Bishops are the successors of the apostles. Like Pope Francis is the successor of Peter.

 

[mark kennedy]

In Judean tradition, the queen was the mother of the king, because most kings had multiple wives. So the king is Jesus, his mother is the queen. Where was Jesus king? Heaven. So where is his mother queen? Heaven.
The wedding feast in Cana recalls Bathsheba taking the seat next to Solomon to ask him a favor. Solomon could not refuse his mother. Same with Mary and Jesus.

That is pure supposition, although the family would have been viewed as royalty. Mary drops off the pages of Scripture after the Gospel and devotions to Mary was a Mediaeval phenomenon. There is no indication that Mary can hear prayers or that Jesus would refuse her nothing, we have one intercessor.

 

[mark kennedy]

No, but apostles are bishops, and served the same role after the death of Jesus.
Bishops are the successors of the apostles. Like Pope Francis is the successor of Peter.

The Apostles could occupy any functional office in the xhurch. John was Pastor in Ephesus for some time until he was unable to continue, tradition has him continuing the as an elder. There was absolutely no concept of a presiding bishop or pope, the elders were and are a team that works in doctrine. The pastor is effectively an elder, he just didn't have to be over 60 like the elders.

 

[Root of Jesse]

That is pure supposition, although the family would have been viewed as royalty. Mary drops off the pages of Scripture after the Gospel and devotions to Mary was a Mediaeval phenomenon. There is no indication that Mary can hear prayers or that Jesus would refuse her nothing, we have one intercessor.

You're forgetting about Revelation, where she's in the vision I described. Regarding your last statement, Wikipedia provides:
Irenaeus of Lyons[edit]
Main article: Irenaeus § Irenaeus' Mariology
One of the earliest images of Mary in Christian tradition is that of the "New Eve". Irenaeus of Lyons (circa 140–202) is perhaps the earliest of the Church Fathers to develop a thorough Mariology. In his youth he had met Polycarp and other Christians who had been in direct contact with the Apostles. Following Romans 5, his analysis is both scriptural and Christological. presenting Christ as the "New Adam". Irenaeus expands upon the thought of Justin Martyr (100–165), and illustrates the distinction between Eve and Mary in both Adversus haereses (Against Heresies) and in Demonstratio Apostolicae Praedicationis (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching).[1]

According to Irenaeus, Christ, being born out of the Virgin Mary, created a totally new historical situation.[2] This view influenced Ambrose of Milan and Tertullian, who wrote about the virginal conception of the Mother of God. Pope Pius IX made reference to this theme of Irenaeus in the 1854 apostolic constitution Ineffabilis Deus, which defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.[3]

Ambrose of Milan[edit]
Saint Ambrose of Milan (339–397), Bishop of Milan and Doctor of the Church, was one of the most influential ecclesiastical figures of the Fourth Century. A student of Simplician, the virginity of Mary and her role as Mother of God were central to his views on Mary.[4] He portrayed the Mother of God "as devoid off any defect or imperfection, radiant with exceptional greatness and holiness."[5]

In 390 he defended the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, rejected by Jovinian. He also disputed the teaching of Bonosus of Sardica that Mary had other children after Jesus, citing John 19: 25-26 and arguing that if that were so, Jesus would not have entrusted his mother to John. He addressed this further in De Institutione Virginis.[1]

Augustine of Hippo[edit]
The cultus of Mary was not as strong in North Africa during the time of Augustine (354–430) as compared with that of recent martyrs. Augustine died the year before the Council of Ephesus in 431 declared Mary to be the Mother of God, which prompted a more indepth consideration of Mary's role. He did not develop an independent Mariology, but his statements on Mary surpass in number and depth those of other early writers.[6] His main themes are discussed in De santa virginitate (“On holy virginity”), where he explains that, like the church, Mary is both virgin and mother, both physically and spiritually.[7]

Augustine said that Mary was more blessed in accepting faith in Christ than in conceiving the flesh of Christ.[8] Augustine’s interest in Mary’s maternity was Christ-centred and underscored both the full humanity and full divinity of Christ.[7]

Cyril of Alexandria[edit]
Cyril of Alexandria (412–444) presided over the Third Ecumenical Council held in 431 at Ephesus which defined it as an article of faith that Mary was truly the Mother of God. This arose from an apparent Christological dispute pitting Cyril against Nestorius of Constantinople.[9]

Veneration of Mary as “Theotokos” (God bearer) supported the doctrine of the incarnation, and Christ's status as equal to the God the Father. Cyril believed that Nestorius' preference for the term “Christotokos” (Christ-bearer) undermined this and suggested that Christ was distinct persons: one fully human and born of Mary, the other fully divine and not subject to birth or death.[10] The Council endorsed the name "Theotokos", which in the West is translated as Mother of God.

 

[Root of Jesse]

The Apostles could occupy any functional office in the xhurch. John was Pastor in Ephesus for some time until he was unable to continue, tradition has him continuing the as an elder. There was absolutely no concept of a presiding bishop or pope, the elders were and are a team that works in doctrine. The pastor is effectively an elder, he just didn't have to be over 60 like the elders.

The fact is that the apostles, and some of the other disciples, carried the authority of bishop, which is the authority to spread the faith, and appoint people to head the Church in various locations.

 

[redleghunter]

No, but apostles are bishops, and served the same role after the death of Jesus.
Bishops are the successors of the apostles. Like Pope Francis is the successor of Peter.

Two different offices and two different words.

 

[Cis.jd]

Two different offices and two different words.

Maybe, regardless of what you say, the RCC is still closer to that office than any protestant denomination. Which really is it's own --about 30,000+ different offices.

 

[Cis.jd]

That is pure supposition, although the family would have been viewed as royalty. Mary drops off the pages of Scripture after the Gospel and devotions to Mary was a Mediaeval phenomenon. There is no indication that Mary can hear prayers or that Jesus would refuse her nothing, we have one intercessor.

hmm. no it's just applying the normal way of kingship. Logically, if a man is the king of some place than obviously his mother is the queen as well. That is just logic.

The jews have believed that Elijah can hear prayers, even muslims believe certain prophets can do it. Main reason why is because it has been an old judaic teaching that anybody who is in heaven is more alive than anybody on earth.

What's interesting about protestants is that they believe that God would give pastors powers to just cause people to collapse by swinging their coat at them, and at the same time believe that Satan himself can just hear you whenever you call him. Yet they can't believe that someone who managed to reach heaven, especially someone who was the first believer in Christ (Mary) can intercede?

That one intercessor argument is flawed because by then you have to be reasonable and also include people here on earth from interceding, however everytime that is brought up you just build your own exceptions. If the demons can hear you, then the saints and angels can. It is a belief and practiced that existed far back to ancient judaism.

 

[mark kennedy]

You're forgetting about Revelation, where she's in the vision I described. Regarding your last statement, Wikipedia provides:
Irenaeus of Lyons[edit]
Main article: Irenaeus § Irenaeus' Mariology
One of the earliest images of Mary in Christian tradition is that of the "New Eve". Irenaeus of Lyons (circa 140–202) is perhaps the earliest of the Church Fathers to develop a thorough Mariology. In his youth he had met Polycarp and other Christians who had been in direct contact with the Apostles. Following Romans 5, his analysis is both scriptural and Christological. presenting Christ as the "New Adam". Irenaeus expands upon the thought of Justin Martyr (100–165), and illustrates the distinction between Eve and Mary in both Adversus haereses (Against Heresies) and in Demonstratio Apostolicae Praedicationis (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching).[1]

According to Irenaeus, Christ, being born out of the Virgin Mary, created a totally new historical situation.[2] This view influenced Ambrose of Milan and Tertullian, who wrote about the virginal conception of the Mother of God. Pope Pius IX made reference to this theme of Irenaeus in the 1854 apostolic constitution Ineffabilis Deus, which defined the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.[3]

Ambrose of Milan[edit]
Saint Ambrose of Milan (339–397), Bishop of Milan and Doctor of the Church, was one of the most influential ecclesiastical figures of the Fourth Century. A student of Simplician, the virginity of Mary and her role as Mother of God were central to his views on Mary.[4] He portrayed the Mother of God "as devoid off any defect or imperfection, radiant with exceptional greatness and holiness."[5]

In 390 he defended the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Mary, rejected by Jovinian. He also disputed the teaching of Bonosus of Sardica that Mary had other children after Jesus, citing John 19: 25-26 and arguing that if that were so, Jesus would not have entrusted his mother to John. He addressed this further in De Institutione Virginis.[1]

Augustine of Hippo[edit]
The cultus of Mary was not as strong in North Africa during the time of Augustine (354–430) as compared with that of recent martyrs. Augustine died the year before the Council of Ephesus in 431 declared Mary to be the Mother of God, which prompted a more indepth consideration of Mary's role. He did not develop an independent Mariology, but his statements on Mary surpass in number and depth those of other early writers.[6] His main themes are discussed in De santa virginitate (“On holy virginity”), where he explains that, like the church, Mary is both virgin and mother, both physically and spiritually.[7]

Augustine said that Mary was more blessed in accepting faith in Christ than in conceiving the flesh of Christ.[8] Augustine’s interest in Mary’s maternity was Christ-centred and underscored both the full humanity and full divinity of Christ.[7]

Cyril of Alexandria[edit]
Cyril of Alexandria (412–444) presided over the Third Ecumenical Council held in 431 at Ephesus which defined it as an article of faith that Mary was truly the Mother of God. This arose from an apparent Christological dispute pitting Cyril against Nestorius of Constantinople.[9]

Veneration of Mary as “Theotokos” (God bearer) supported the doctrine of the incarnation, and Christ's status as equal to the God the Father. Cyril believed that Nestorius' preference for the term “Christotokos” (Christ-bearer) undermined this and suggested that Christ was distinct persons: one fully human and born of Mary, the other fully divine and not subject to birth or death.[10] The Council endorsed the name "Theotokos", which in the West is translated as Mother of God.

Oh I'm aware some have an exaulted view of Mary amoung some of the early church fathers but there is nothing of the sort in the New Testament. As a popular belief Catholics and Orthodox nursed devotions to Marynfor centuries .However, the emaculate conception and bodily ascension of Mary as church dogma were contrived over a considerable amount of time.

 

[mark kennedy]

Two different offices and two different words.

the way I get it there are elders, deacons, pastors and evangelists. He is talking like John from Ephesus ruled over the other 7 churches, no indication of anything like that in Acts. Pricilla, Aquilla and Apollos founded the church at Ephesus and the other churches grew up spontaneously. The gospel probably followed the trade route along the Roman road that ran through Asia Minor.

 

[redleghunter]

Maybe, regardless of what you say, the RCC is still closer to that office than any protestant denomination. Which really is it's own --about 30,000+ different offices.

Did that come from Catholic Answers?

 

[Cis.jd]

Did that come from Catholic Answers?

nope. I wouldn't be flinging around "catholic answers" as much, since you on the other hand spam links to protestant sites in most of your arguments.

 

[redleghunter]

nope. I wouldn't be flinging around "catholic answers" as much, since you on the other hand spam links to protestant sites in most of your arguments.

It was just that I saw that same tired assertion over there.

I don't think I ever linked you to a "Protestant" site. Unless you mean links to Holy Scriptures.

 

[Cis.jd]

It was just that I saw that same tired assertion over there.

I don't think I ever linked you to a "Protestant" site. Unless you mean links to Holy Scriptures.

I haven't forgotten your arguments in other threads. It was all links to Protestant views/interpretations of Holy Scripture -- what specific protestant view it was, i don't know.

 

[SolomonVII]

Biblically, there were religious authorities established in the NT, by whatever name that they go by. The precise name is a function of the language of the user.
Functionally, those religious offices led the rituals involved in the celebrations.
Chief among these rituals in Christianity, as per Last Supper instructions, is the Eucharist.
By any other name, enacting the religious ritual defines a priest. It is what a priest does. Anyone who does it, is a priest, by any other name.

'Doing this in memory of me' defines the Biblical ritual, and it involves some manner of religious leadership. Not doing this, to spite the Catholic Church, defines a secular attitude to religion.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Two different offices and two different words.

Why don't you define them, RLH? I'd like to see how you see them as different?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Oh I'm aware some have an exaulted view of Mary amoung some of the early church fathers but there is nothing of the sort in the New Testament. As a popular belief Catholics and Orthodox nursed devotions to Marynfor centuries .However, the emaculate conception and bodily ascension of Mary as church dogma were contrived over a considerable amount of time.

The "exalted view" of some early Church fathers is because of the vision of Mary as queen of heaven in Revelation. Which, last time I checked, is in the NT.
It's the bodily assumption. Mary didn't ascend, she was assumed. And the vision of Johns shows her bodily in heaven. The immaculate conception is also Biblical, see Luke 1.

 

[redleghunter]

I haven't forgotten your arguments in other threads. It was all links to Protestant views/interpretations of Holy Scripture -- what specific protestant view it was, i don't know.

Think you have someone else in mind.

 

[redleghunter]

Why don't you define them, RLH? I'd like to see how you see them as different?

Apostle

Bishop (Overseer)