Do some believe babies go to Hell?

[Petros2015]

Don't roast the babies.

 

[Southernscotty]

I would also like to believe that but, I don't think it can be found in the Bible?

Accountability age in the Bible just does not ring a bell?

M-Bob

It is not an age brother. It is a mentality. Just as mentally handicapped people cannot be responsible for sin if they do not understand it.

 

[Southernscotty]

There is nothing in the Bible about Age of Accountability.

John 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
It is not the age. It is the mentality level which the word age is equivalent too as handicapped people are like babies in that they do not recognize their sinfulness and are not accountable as we are
John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How is it possible God can know libertarian free will (LFW) decisions before they occur?

How did God speak the universe into existence?
How did God turn water into wine?
How did God die for our sins?
How did God know about the future?

He is God.

So how did that answer this: When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?

You are not accepting what Scripture says and you are attempting to rationalize something from purely human thinking. Again, IF Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8 are true, then that means God can make decisions long before His free willed creation makes those actual decisions. God does not need to wait and see what His free willed beings will do because He already knows what they are going to do.

Peter was elect based upon God the Father's foreknowledge.

1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father,"
(1 Peter 1:1-2).​

God is also aware of every infinite possibility, too.

"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matthew 11:23).

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21).​

Yes, i'm of the view that Scripture teaches universalism after the last one in "hell" has been saved. The Bible also teaches that there are a number of destinations, erroneously called "hell" (Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire, etc), to avoid & the sufferings thereof. So this life is not meaningless. Furthermore, there are other reasons why this life has meaning, e.g.:

FYI - I believe in "Dualistic Conditional Immortality." This is the belief that hell is a real and literal place but after the Judgment, the wicked will be annihilated or erased from existence after being punished for set amount of time (according to their sins) in the Lake of Fire. Even the devil and his minions will be destroyed. All evil will be no more. The rich man was not screaming in pain in hell (unlike the popular propaganda that is pushed by movies and churches). I believe God is fair and just. So this means that there is a good possibility that the wicked will go through long periods of sleep and are awakened at certain points of time in hell (So they are not suffering beyond the crimes that they committed in the life that they lived).

As for Universal Salvation:

No offense, but Universal Salvation is pretty silly from my point of view. Temporary suffering is meaningless in light of the grand scope of eternity.
It's why Christians are encouraged not to worry about what men will do to them vs. what God can do (Matthew 10:28). Again, in time, if all will make it in the end, your efforts here do not matter. You are only helping to alleviate temporary suffering (Which in the grande scheme of eternity is nothing). Temporary suffering happens to even God's good people. This is to test their character. Also, my actions would be futile and would not mean anything in the grand scheme of eternity if everyone will be saved. Nothing I do here would truly matter but to help to alleviate temporary suffering. Honestly, I would go back to my old life if what you believed was actually true. Nothing in life would matter. It would be pointless to believe. All will be saved. I can go back to watching Star Trek and superhero movies, and eat Buddah endorsed fried Chinese food and devour whole cartons of sugar infested ice cream knowing we will be in Heaven eventually. Temporary suffering? What does it matter? It is but drop in the bucket in the grand scope of eternity. But if my actions truly did matter in regards to eternity, then I would want to make sure that I would not want to miss out on God's Kingdom and be destroyed (erased from existence) in the Lake of Fire.

Eccl. 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

They will be humbled by the fact that every knee will bow before Jesus. It does not mean they will all be saved in the end. My actions would be worthless or would not truly matter and my suffering for Christ in this life would mean nothing.

Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Taken out of context. This chapter is not talking about the invented theory of Universal Salvation. This particular verse in reference to Christ dying for the sins of the entire world so as to offer man the free gift of salvation if he so chooses it freely. The chapter also talks about how if we (Gentiles) do not continue in his goodness then we can also be cut off (Romans 11:21-22). This alludes to the words of Jesus in John 15:6 where He says that if a branch does not bear fruit it will be cut off and cast into the fire. Fires burn up things and consume them so that they are no more but simply ashes that fly away in the wind.

So there is going to be... "No Universal Salvation." I know it sounds comforting, but is simply is not true. Just because we want something to be true in the Scriptures does not make it so. You did not read the Scriptures and say to yourself,

"Hey look." "The Bible is talking about some kind of Universal Salvation here." "I never knew that before!" ​

No. That is not what happened. You first believed in Universal Salvation ahead of time and then you tried to cram that idea into the Bible. People do this with Eternal Conscious Torment, too. Well, I can understand a little while they may believe this way because 2-3 verses are suggestive of eternal torment. But under closer examination of looking at Scripture more closely, that is not what those 2-3 verses actually say.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Nothing here about them being set free to be rewarded with Heaven afterwards.

Even if there was no postmortem hell, your own conscience tells you you should repent & do what is right & loving. Even also the consequences of sin in this life should motivate you to repent, to say nothing of loving your neighbour, doing him no harm & returning love to Love Omnipotent Crucified Who loved you more than life itself.

I am all for these things if my actions will truly matter in the grand scheme of eternity. My God is not going to make my actions as if they don't matter in the end. Fighting the good fight of faith would be meaningless if everyone will just be eventually saved.

If your faith is mature, are you motivated by fear:

1 Jn.4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.

Fear of the Lord is like training wheels on a bike. A child in many cases first needs them to help them to ride the bike. This is why we read in Scripture about how the fear is the beginning of knowledge and wisdom. 1 John 2:5 says, "But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him." So we have to obey God in order for perfect love (by obedience to His word) casts out fear. For the person who obeys will not fear God because they are not sinning (Whereby they can be destroyed in the Lake of Fire). Sin or the potential to sin is what can cause fear. But we need to learn to walk uprightly by God's power to do that. But if all will be saved in the end, it makes no sense to be in fear of God. Temporary suffering? People temporarily suffer their whole lives in this life. If the goal was to alleviate temporary suffering, then we should focus on a getting people to stop suffering. Job's friends did not like how Job was suffering. They thought it must have been because of some kind of sin, but this was not the case.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved? Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Gehenna, i.e. the Lake of Fire)." (Matthew 10:28).

Physical death (destruction or end of the body) in this passage is related to a spiritual death in Gehenna (destruction or end of one's soul). Destroy. That is what it says. He can destroy a person's soul. If I destroy a car, it is ruined. If I destroy a piece of paper I may burn it up (much like what a fire does in the Lake of Fire). Fires burn things up. Think.

Jesus, our example to follow, had a heart of compassion that led Him to do good for others who were suffering:

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

It is true that God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous, but a little bit of compassion and goodness is not the same as final justice. There is no justice in your view. Justice is an illusion in your view because all will be rewarded with Heaven despite what evil they will do. God will force save everyone. He would have to mind wipe certain people who do not want to go to Heaven.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

It is not an age brother. It is a mentality. Just as mentally handicapped people cannot be responsible for sin if they do not understand it.

Well that sounds good and fair and that's what us people like fairness but, I do not question God and I cannot find those answers in the Bible.

Your statement made is also what I wish to believe. I just can't read God's mind.

M-Bob

 

[Southernscotty]

Well that sounds good and fair and that's what US people like fairness but, I do not question God and I cannot find those answers in the Bible.

M-Bob

I know because you are calvinist. Are you a 5 point?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

How is it possible God can know libertarian free will (LFW) decisions before they occur?



So how did that answer this: When does an aborted infant's soul make a libertarian free will (LFW) decision for Christ? Premortem or postmortem or preexistence?




Yes, i'm of the view that Scripture teaches universalism after the last one in "hell" has been saved. The Bible also teaches that there are a number of destinations, erroneously called "hell" (Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire, etc), to avoid & the sufferings thereof. So this life is not meaningless. Furthermore, there are other reasons why this life has meaning, e.g.:

Eccl. 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.

Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Even if there was no postmortem hell, your own conscience tells you you should repent & do what is right & loving. Even also the consequences of sin in this life should motivate you to repent, to say nothing of loving your neighbour, doing him no harm & returning love to Love Omnipotent Crucified Who loved you more than life itself.

If your faith is mature, are you motivated by fear:

1 Jn.4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love drives out fear, because fear involves punishment. The one who fears has not been perfected in love. 19 We love because He first loved us.

Are those who profess Christ merely out of fear, i.e. for "fire insurance", even saved? Do they serve the Scriptural God Who is love, or a false god of fear? Such as Ra, Allah, & Molech, who are inventions of Satan?



Jesus, our example to follow, had a heart of compassion that led Him to do good for others who were suffering:

Acts 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Saints Witness the Lifeless Remains of the Wicked:

The Saints View The Lifeless Remains (i.e. Corpses) of the Wicked:

• Isaiah 66:22-24

"For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."​

For the Final Fate of the Wicked is Destruction (or Annihiation):

• 2 Thessalonians 1:9

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."​

• Malachi 4:1-3

“For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.”​

• 2 Peter 2:6 NHEB

"...and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, having made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly.”​

• Psalms 68:2

"....as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God."

• Job 4:8-9

“Even as I have seen, they that plow iniquity, and sow wickedness, reap the same. By the blast of God they perish, and by the breath of his nostrils are they consumed.”​

• Psalms 92:7 NLT

"Though the wicked sprout like weeds and evildoers flourish, they will be destroyed forever."​

• Deuteronomy 7:10

“And repays them that hate him to their face, to destroy them: he will not be slack to him that hates him, he will repay him to his face.”​

• Psalms 1:6

“For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”​

• Matthew 10:28

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [i.e. Gehenna or Lake of Fire].”​

• Revelation 21:8

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Final Fate of the Wicked Also Includes the Annihilation or:

A. Destruction of the Devil:


• Isaiah 14:12, Isaiah 14:19

12 “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” 19 “....thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.”​

‭‭

• Ezekiel 28:14-15, Ezekiel 28:18

“Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”

“Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.”
​

B. Destruction of the Entity Known As "Death":


• 1 Corinthians 15:26

“The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death”
​

Conclusion:

I see nothing of Universal Salvation after the wicked are destroyed or turned to ashes in the above verses. I also do not see these verses talking about they will still live on forever, either.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

I know because you are calvinist. Are you a 5 point?

I definitely lean towards Calvinism but, for what it's worth I consider myself a 90% calvinist whatever that is?

I claim to be not 100% in any man's camp trying my best to stick to the Bible.

M-Bob

 

[Southernscotty]

I definitely lean towards Calvinism but, for what it's worth I consider myself a 90% calvinist whatever that is?

I claim to be not 100% in any man's camp trying my best to stick to the Bible.

M-Bob

Lol, Yes I agree there. I feel that whatever God does is just and loving and fair always. Afterall love is the fulfillment :]

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Logic dictates that if death is the last enemy to be destroyed (1 Corinthians 15:26), then that means there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, too. They will not be still living to be suffer for eternity in the Lake of Fire, and neither will they be living to temporarily suffer in hell so as to one day live in Heaven. The Lord our God is a God of justice and fairness. He doesn't punish the wicked beyond what the crime calls for and He doesn't reward evil people in the end with Heaven (Thereby insulting the actions and sacrifice made by the saints on the behalf of Christ (GOD)).

 

[Southernscotty]

Abortion as we know it today was not practiced in biblical times, and the Bible never specifically mentions the issue of abortion. It is clear from the Scriptures that an unborn baby is known by the Lord, even from the time of conception (Psalm 139:13-16). Although the Bible does not mention abortion or aborted babies, we do have two keys to help us unlock the answer to the question of whether the souls of aborted babies go to heaven.

The first key is from the only passage in the Bible where something specific is said about the death of infants. In 2 Samuel 12 we learn of David’s affair with Bathsheba, another man’s wife. David was informed by the prophet Nathan that the child produced by that union would die. David then began to fast and pray, asking the Lord to not carry out His judgment. When the child did die, David got up from praying and fasting and ate something.

When asked about this behavior, David uttered the words recorded in 2 Samuel 12:23, “Now he is dead; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” David’s words reflect a clear understanding that the child could not come back to earth, but David would be with his child one day in heaven. This indicates not only David’s assurance of his own future in heaven (Psalm 23:6), but also the assurance that his child would share that future. From this account, we can conclude that infants who die are destined for heaven.

The second key to dealing with this issue is an understanding of the character and attributes of God. A God of justice must punish sin, for the Bible teaches us that “the wages of sin is death” (Romans 6:23). Neither an unborn child nor an aborted baby has had the opportunity to willfully sin; however, every child conceived bears the sin nature inherited from Adam (Psalm 51:5) and is therefore subject to judgment. At the same time, God reveals Himself as a God of goodness and mercy (Psalm 136:26). He is “gracious in all His works” (Psalm 145:17). It could very well be that God, in His grace, applies the sacrifice of Christ to the unborn victims of abortion. We know Christ’s blood is sufficient for such a thing. After all, Jesus died “for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2).

The Bible does not specifically say whether or not an unborn child who dies goes to heaven. Without a clear passage, we can only speculate. However, we know of God’s love, goodness, and compassion. We know of David’s confidence that he would be with his child again. And we know that Jesus invited the children to come to Him (Luke 18:16). Based on these sureties, we believe it is appropriate to conclude that the souls of children are immediately in the presence of God when their lives are cut short by abortion.

 

[Dave L]

Why do Christians oppose abortion if babies go to heaven, and most will go to hell if they grow up?

 

[Southernscotty]

Why do Christians oppose abortion if babies go to heaven, and most will go to hell if they grow up?

How would we know that most would go to hell? If people would start going to church and living and raising their kids biblically again, Then the many would accept Christ and continue the trend.
Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

 

[Dave L]

How would we know that most would go to hell? If people would start going to church and living and raising their kids biblically again, Then the many would accept Christ and continue the trend.
Prov 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

This is ideal, but when have true believers ever been other than petty few?

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Why do Christians oppose abortion if babies go to heaven, and most will go to hell if they grow up?

Even goats know the answer to that.
How many baby goats are aborted?

For any believer -- obviously that would mean they have the Holy Spirit within them -- that believes abortion is okay --they should ask them self -- does God wish for me to support the killing of innocent babies???

I know not one at our church that would answer yes. And if there were a few we would probably change Churches -- quickly.

M-Bob

 

[Southernscotty]

This is ideal, but when have true believers ever been other than petty few?

Unfortunately the statistics don't look good for the future as more and more walk away and turn liberal

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

I believe babies can go to hell

I also believe babies can go to heaven

in situations like this I simply allow God to be sovereign and do as He sees fit.

 

[Southernscotty]

I believe babies can go to hell

I also believe babies can go to heaven

in situations like this I simply allow God to be sovereign and do as He sees fit.

But how? How can something that knows NO sin, Become a disgrace to an all holy God??

 

[RaymondG]

I don't believe that but I would be interested to know if there is anyone here who believes that.

I find it totally agreeable that one who believes anyone will literally burn in an oven and takes most of the bible as literal....would also believe that children will be there as well.....

Yes it is "unfair" for one who has not heard the word to have to face hellfire, but is it "Fair" for one who had never faced the temptation that many in "hell" had succumbed to, and still go to "Heaven?

Neither can be reconciled in the mind of man....

We also have to take into account that this whole notion is of the flesh.....we are assuming that little crawling babies will be in fire crawling around....and we are using this imagery to form opinions.

Yet there is no reason to believe that eternal bodies will look just like the physical....or that our new body have to take the same age and form as the current...in fact, many who have died after the age of 80, would be very disappointed if we had to keep the same age and appearance that we left the earth with....

 

[Monk Brendan]

I don't believe that but I would be interested to know if there is anyone here who believes that.

We pray daily for little ones who die that they will be given the grace of baptism.

**Water baptism and the act thereof does not save anyone.**

St. Peter disagrees with you. "Baptism doth now save us."