The Jews to be kept safe during the Great Tribulation

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
…and that man of sin will be revealed, the son of perdition
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that as God he sitteth in the temple of God declaring shewing himself that he is God

whom the Lord will destroy with the breath of His mouth and the brightness of His coming.

It's ok, you don't like to call him Antichrist...that's alright...we'll refer to him as the son of perdition. don't worry.
Paul described an individual who would emerge and occupy a place of counterfeit spiritual authority within the "naos" spiritual temple of the Church. The Reformers recognized the fulfillment of Paul's prediction in the apostate papacy which supplanted the role of Christ as the head of the Church. They identified the man of sin as the succession of the apostate popes.

The success of the Reformation in reclaiming the true Church from its spiritual darkness was due to the vision, faith, and sacrifice of the Reformers; and the spiritual freedoms that we experience today are a direct result thereof.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The primitive church taught the 1,000 year reign of Christ on earth with His saints.

Darby got it all wrong.

You must be confused. Darby also taught the premill doctrine.

Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no mortals alive on the planet after the Second Coming of Christ.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.


The fire comes at the Second Coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire also comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.



.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: jgr
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You must be confused. Darby also taught the premill doctrine.

Matthew 25:31-46 leaves no mortals alive on the planet after the Second Coming of Christ.

The "time of the judgment of the dead" is found in Revelation 11:18, right after the 7th trumpet, which is the last trumpet in the Bible.


The fire comes at the Second Coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10.
The fire also comes at the end of Revelation chapter 20.



.
We get a little deeper here, it is up to you whether you will ponder these things a little more or whether you will simply wave the hand.

Darby preached a pre tribulation rapture which is not only wrong in substance but crooked in the way he set about proving his doctrine i.e he deliberately set out to deceive,

He knew apostasis does not mean departure from one place to another or removal, he was an Oxford educated theologian and could not have been mistaken, so he was being crooked.

The word in 2.Thess.2 is rebellion, a departure from the faith, the church in 70ad was still multiplying at a phenominal rate, millions were turning to the Lord and in all ranks and status of life.

Also Darby did notice those great and wonderful promises God made to the Jews in every book of prophecy Micah.4. for e.g. "it shall come to pass in the latter days...." and quite rightly he concluded that these promises could never belong to the church.

But in the last days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills and people shall flow into it.

And many nations shall come and say "come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob and He will teach us His ways and we will walk in His paths" for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among many people and rebuke strong nations afar off and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

This is taken from Isaiah. It comprises the great Jewish hope, it is what they understood as the Kingdom of God, it is what they believed in and expected...when Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is nigh they pricked up their ears.

Darby rightly recognised that these promises are the OPPOSITE to what Jesus taught the church to expect.
The world was not to come to us, we were to go to the world. Nations would lift up sword against nation and wars would continue and increase right up to His return. People would not sit under their vine and their fig tree but there would be disaster and famine.

But for some odd reason known only to Darby he concluded from this that Israel [which at that time was not a nation] would go through the tribulation...looks to me like they are in safety and peace and prosperity...but that is that.

Now Isaiah and Micah are not alone in teaching this prophecy for the latter days, it is what every Jew believed...they ALL taught it....they still do.

It has not come to pass.....it MUST then be still future..
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
May 28, 2009
28,689
3,404
Non-dispensationalist
✟356,795.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
But for some odd reason known only to Darby he concluded from this that Israel [which at that time was not a nation] would go through the tribulation...looks to me like they are in safety and peace and prosperity...but that is that.
Hi Billy, Revelation 12 is the 7 years relevant to Israel. Israel goes through the entire 7 years, and actually has a part regarding the beginning by embracing the prince who shall come in Daniel 9, as their messiah, and him anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

That person will confirm the Mt. Sinai as required by Moses of all leaders of Israel on a seven year cycle. Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It is a big speech to the nation of Israel. That is what actually starts the seven years.

After a little over 3 years, the person betrays them, transgressing the covenant, claims to be God. The 2Thessalonians2:4 act. The Jews will be mortified, in shock and dismay, and will renounce him as their King. That ends his time in the role of being the Antichrist.

He will be killed and brought back alive as the beast, King of the Roman empire in the end times, the ten EU kings pledge their kingdom to him (Revelation 17:17). Satan and the beast will persecute the Jews which don't flee into the wilderness in time (Revelation 12:17). The other Jews will be protected in the wilderness.

Revelation 12 is all about Israel, the Jews, during that 7 years. In the middle part of the 7 years after the ordeal of picking the wrong guy, they turn to Jesus and embrace the gospel of salvation in Revelation 12:10.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Billy Evmur
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
We get a little deeper here, it is up to you whether you will ponder these things a little more or whether you will simply wave the hand.

Darby preached a pre tribulation rapture which is not only wrong in substance but crooked in the way he set about proving his doctrine i.e he deliberately set out to deceive,

He knew apostasis does not mean departure from one place to another or removal, he was an Oxford educated theologian and could not have been mistaken, so he was being crooked.

The word in 2.Thess.2 is rebellion, a departure from the faith, the church in 70ad was still multiplying at a phenominal rate, millions were turning to the Lord and in all ranks and status of life.

Also Darby did notice those great and wonderful promises God made to the Jews in every book of prophecy Micah.4. for e.g. "it shall come to pass in the latter days...." and quite rightly he concluded that these promises could never belong to the church.

But in the last days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills and people shall flow into it.

And many nations shall come and say "come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob and He will teach us His ways and we will walk in His paths" for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among many people and rebuke strong nations afar off and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

This is taken from Isaiah. It comprises the great Jewish hope, it is what they understood as the Kingdom of God, it is what they believed in and expected...when Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is nigh they pricked up their ears.

Darby rightly recognised that these promises are the OPPOSITE to what Jesus taught the church to expect.
The world was not to come to us, we were to go to the world. Nations would lift up sword against nation and wars would continue and increase right up to His return. People would not sit under their vine and their fig tree but their would be disaster and famine.

But for some odd reason known only to Darby he concluded from this that Israel [which at that time was not a nation] would go through the tribulation...looks to me like they are in safety and peace and prosperity...but that is that.

Now Isaiah and Micah are not alone in teaching this prophecy for the latter days, it is what every Jew believed...they ALL taught it....they still do.

It has not come to pass.....it MUST then be still future..

*
Now I want you to recognise something.

Only Paul among the apostles spoke about the gathering. He speaks about the resurrection as coming in stages. First Christ the firstfruits, THEN those that are His at His coming [brother that is 2,000 years and counting] THEN comes the end when He shall deliver the kingdom unto God for He must reign until He has put all things under His feet. [but YOU say He will not reign, YOU say there is no kingdom to deliver unto God]

That is 3 distinct stages, and John speaks about the 1st resurrection [blessed are those who attain to the 1st resurrection] and John speaks about a 2nd resurrection.

Only Paul had this revelation because only Paul understood the church among the nations, the others simply did not understand it. Peter says so specifically speaking about the endtimes he says Paul writes about these these things in all his letters according to the wisdom given to him...many things which be hard to understand.

God cannot pour His wrath out upon the nations while we are here..we must first be removed, hence the gathering.

Paul does not speak about loud bangs and fervent heat to the melting away of the elements.

He speaks about the creation being SET FREE from it's bondage to decay. He speaks about God uniting all things in heaven and on earth in Christ.

I there a discrepancy? a contradiction? NO, NO, both prophecies will come to pass... but in their own time.

Yes at the last day there will be the last judgement, John calls it the Great White Throne judgement.....it comes after the 1,000 years.

Whereas Peter thought it must begin in Jerusalem and spread throughout the world a mighty kingdom, Paul understood that the church would have to go to the world and be established among the nations. Paul understood that the Jews would be laid aside until the fulness of the Gentiles are come in.

And WE are not sent to set up the kingdom of heaven but to announce it, to preach it and to bear witness to Jesus.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Hi Billy, Revelation 12 is the 7 years relevant to Israel. Israel goes through the entire 7 years, and actually has a part regarding the beginning by embracing the prince who shall come in Daniel 9, as their messiah, and him anointed the King of Israel, instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel.

That person will confirm the Mt. Sinai as required by Moses of all leaders of Israel on a seven year cycle. Deuteronomy 31:9-13. It is a big speech to the nation of Israel. That is what actually starts the seven years.

After a little over 3 years, the person betrays them, transgressing the covenant, claims to be God. The 2Thessalonians2:4 act. The Jews will be mortified, in shock and dismay, and will renounce him as their King. That ends his time in the role of being the Antichrist.

He will be killed and brought back alive as the beast, King of the Roman empire in the end times, the ten EU kings pledge their kingdom to him (Revelation 17:17). Satan working through the beast will persecute the Jews which don't flee into the wilderness in time (Revelation 12:17). The other Jews will be protected in the wilderness.

Revelation 12 is all about Israel, the Jews, during that 7 years. In the middle part of the 7 years after the ordeal of picking the wrong guy, they turn to Jesus and embrace the gospel of salvation in Revelation 12:10.
*
Hi Doug welcome to the debate. :)

I agree with so much of that.

But Antichrist IS the beast, he is not the dragon but he is the beast. It is he who makes that covenant with Israel for 7 years and while he is stamping on everything called god he lays off Israel...and THEY WILL BE IN SAFETY.

After 3.5 years he will break his pact as you say and invade Israel...but then the Lord comes and fights against him. Michael will stand up and Israel will be delivered.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
...er

"My kingdom is not now of this world"

Is it so? Paul says God's will for the fulness of time is to unite all things in Christ, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven. That is God's plan.

Now this uniting of all things in Christ, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven can never happen before Christ returns because we are told what conditions we must expect to prevail. Wars, scandals, earthquakes, roaring waves, famine...men hating God.

Reads a bit like the newspapers doesn't it.

So it is for the age after Christ returns. "The fulness of times" is a synonym for the Millennium.

Ephesians.1.
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both things which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.

It is what Jesus taught us to pray "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven...." even as it is in heaven.
You are confusing the false Jewish Physical Kingdom concept with the eternal kingdom in the New Heavens and Earth. It is eternal, not 1000 years of sickness and disease.
 
Upvote 0

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We get a little deeper here, it is up to you whether you will ponder these things a little more or whether you will simply wave the hand.

Darby preached a pre tribulation rapture which is not only wrong in substance but crooked in the way he set about proving his doctrine i.e he deliberately set out to deceive,

He knew apostasis does not mean departure from one place to another or removal, he was an Oxford educated theologian and could not have been mistaken, so he was being crooked.

The word in 2.Thess.2 is rebellion, a departure from the faith, the church in 70ad was still multiplying at a phenominal rate, millions were turning to the Lord and in all ranks and status of life.

Also Darby did notice those great and wonderful promises God made to the Jews in every book of prophecy Micah.4. for e.g. "it shall come to pass in the latter days...." and quite rightly he concluded that these promises could never belong to the church.

But in the last days it shall come to pass that the mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the top of the mountains and shall be exalted above the hills and people shall flow into it.

And many nations shall come and say "come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord and to the house of the God of Jacob and He will teach us His ways and we will walk in His paths" for the law shall go forth of Zion and the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.

And He shall judge among many people and rebuke strong nations afar off and they shall beat their swords into ploughshares and their spears into pruning hooks nation shall not lift up sword against nation neither shall they learn war any more.

But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree and none shall make them afraid
for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

This is taken from Isaiah. It comprises the great Jewish hope, it is what they understood as the Kingdom of God, it is what they believed in and expected...when Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God is nigh they pricked up their ears.

Darby rightly recognised that these promises are the OPPOSITE to what Jesus taught the church to expect.
The world was not to come to us, we were to go to the world. Nations would lift up sword against nation and wars would continue and increase right up to His return. People would not sit under their vine and their fig tree but there would be disaster and famine.

But for some odd reason known only to Darby he concluded from this that Israel [which at that time was not a nation] would go through the tribulation...looks to me like they are in safety and peace and prosperity...but that is that.

Now Isaiah and Micah are not alone in teaching this prophecy for the latter days, it is what every Jew believed...they ALL taught it....they still do.

It has not come to pass.....it MUST then be still future..

Are you claiming that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time?

.
 
Upvote 0

usexpat97

kewlness
Aug 1, 2012
3,308
1,618
Ecuador
✟76,839.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
The climax of the trib is when Antichrist invades Jerusalem...the Lord will destroy him, and those who follow him.

Note that the Antichrist's invasion into Jerusalem is not necessarily by military force. All he has to do is supplant the one true Messiah; that's it. No doubt the Lord will destroy the Antichrist's followers. What I am unsure your mind is open to is, those followers may be none other than the Jerusalemites who freely gave him the key to the city. Those followers may be Jewish. They already rejected the one true Messiah. Those who die rejecting the one true Messiah WILL NOT inherit heaven; Jewish or not. All these "blessings" of a new nation in the Holy Land--Palestine--are utterly meaningless if you don't have that.
 
Upvote 0

usexpat97

kewlness
Aug 1, 2012
3,308
1,618
Ecuador
✟76,839.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
But Antichrist IS the beast, he is not the dragon but he is the beast.

Possibly. It's a matter of semantics. Take your arm: is your arm "you"? Well, yes. The Antichrist is a figurehead of the Beast. In that sense, yes. The Antichrist is the Beast. What the Antichrist is not, however, is the Beast in its entirety. Your body is comprised of a lot more than just your arm. In the same way, the Beast is a lot more than just the Antichrist.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You are confusing the false Jewish Physical Kingdom concept with the eternal kingdom in the New Heavens and Earth. It is eternal, not 1000 years of sickness and disease.

So Paul did not in your view say that God's plan for the fulness of time is to unite all things in Christ in heaven and on earth.
 
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Are you claiming that modern Jews will come to salvation outside of the Church, during a future time?

.
Not outside Christ. They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born son...the entire nation, the men will mourn for Him they will separate from their wives and their wives will mourn for Him
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Choose Wisely
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Only in the New Heavens and Earth.

You can't do that. Play scripture hopscotch pass over the scriptures which speak about restoration, peace and blessing but claim to believe the scripture concerning the NHNE
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You can't do that. Play scripture hopscotch pass over the scriptures which speak about restoration, peace and blessing but claim to believe the scripture concerning the NHNE
Scripture nowhere says there will be a physical millennium. The restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) happens in the resurrection (restoration) on the last day into the New Heavens and Earth.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

jgr

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Feb 25, 2008
9,692
5,007
✟783,467.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Not outside Christ. They shall look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for Him as for a first born son...the entire nation, the men will mourn for Him they will separate from their wives and their wives will mourn for Him

Since dispensationally all saved Jews are raptured, those who remain are all of the unregenerate Jews who have ever lived (Zechariah 12:10-14). That would include Judas Iscariot, the Jews responsible for Christ's death, the many thousands of Jews whom God slew for unbelief and disobedience, et al.

Are you ready to meet and greet Judas in heaven?
 
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Scripture nowhere says there will be a physical millennium. The restoration of Israel (believers in Christ) happens in the resurrection (restoration) on the last day into the New Heavens and Earth.

You made that up. The scripture is the saints will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

You can't dismiss that scripture and light on the scripture which promises a NHNE, that is to play scripture hopscotch.
 
Upvote 0

Dave L

Well-Known Member
Supporter
Jun 28, 2018
15,549
5,875
USA
✟580,110.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You made that up. The scripture is the saints will reign with Christ for 1,000 years.

You can't dismiss that scripture and light on the scripture which promises a NHNE, that is to play scripture hopscotch.
Where? Please offer a direct quote supporting you physical millennium.
 
Upvote 0

Billy Evmur

Brother
Supporter
Jul 25, 2018
661
204
72
London
Visit site
✟83,171.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Since dispensationally all saved Jews are raptured, those who remain are all of the unregenerate Jews who have ever lived (Zechariah 12:10-14). That would include Judas Iscariot, the Jews responsible for Christ's death, the many thousands of Jews whom God slew for unbelief and disobedience, et al.

Are you ready to meet and greet Judas in heaven?

Daniel in ch.12 speaks about the resurrection and says specifically of the Jews those who are righteous will shine as the sun and turn many unto righteousness [your doctrine denies that] and that those who have done evil will be raised to everlasting shame.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums