Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

[AbbaLove]

None of this says that Jesus was crucified on the 14th, whereas Mark 14:12 and Luke 22:7 both say that he ate the last supper on the 14th.

As usual your timeline is again faulty. As gadar perets has already eluded the "last supper" of Yeshua and His Disciples was a pre-Seder that He and His Disciples ate at the beginning of the 14th of Abib/Nisan. You come here as a guest unwilling to ask questions and learn; while attempting to teach Messianics that have a better understanding of the Tanakh and Ketuvei HaShalichim (Brit Chadashah) than do you.

Even common sense will provide someone with an unbiased awareness that gadar perets is right while you still seem confused.

I believe it was the beginning of Abib 14. Why would Yeshua wait until the afternoon of the 14th to tell them to prepare the passover? They should have been in line with thousands of other Jews at the temple with their lambs to be killed. Then they had to cook them for hours before they could eat them. They had no time to go looking for a room at the last minute.

​

 

[Dave-W]

As gadar perets has already eluded the "last supper"

I think you mean "alluded" (pointed to) instead of "eluded." (avoided)

 

[AFrazier]

Someone keeps lodging complaints, and I am no longer permitted to debate on this thread. Bye folks.

 

[AbbaLove]

I think you mean "alluded" (pointed to) instead of "eluded." (avoided)

Very perceptive! So when gadar perets says "pre-Seder" it's his way of skillfully eluding what otherwise could become a contentious debate. As you're well aware 99.9% of Pesach Seders attended by Messianic Jews follow along with their own copy of the order of the Haggadah believing that it is similar to what Yeshua and His Disciples observed (Luke 22:15), except for foot washing which is not included in the Jewish Haggadah.

For non-Jews that may not know ... the Haggadah is a Jewish text that sets forth the order of the Passover Seder meal as celebrated in Jewish Synagogues during the Feast of Pesach/Unleavened Bread ... The 30 Minute Seder

 

[AbbaLove]

Someone keeps lodging complaints, and I am no longer permitted to debate on this thread. Bye folks.

It doesn't surprise me, but just so you know it wasn't me. Had hoped that you would soon see the futility of your reasoning bias in this MJ forum and stop posting.

Where you failed is not providing convincing proof that 3-4 hrs of daylight on friday, plus 12 hrs of daylight on saturday, plus a few minutes of daylight on sunday morning somehow qualifies as "after three days" (Mark 9:31). Or "three days" (Matthew 12:40) when there is just as much, if not more, reason to believe that Yeshua arose before sunrise and therefore before the beginning of another 12 hrs of daytime.

Because you avoided/failed to convince MJs that 12 hrs friday night and 12 hrs saturday night somehow qualified as "three nights" (Matthew 12:40) it only became more and more apparent from your posts that your research was lacking in due diligence.

 

[Dave-W]

As you're well aware 99.9% of Pesach Seders attended by Messianic Jews follow along with their own copy of the order of the Haggadah believing that it is similar to what Yeshua and His Disciples observed (Luke 22:15), except for foot washing which is not included in the Jewish Haggadah.

Since the current Orthodox Haggadah is based on the outline set down by Hillel in the late first century bc, it is fairly close if you delete a lot of the "fluff" additions and readings.

https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Passover-Haggadah-David-Waggoner-ebook/dp/B00BL5XNFM

 

[visionary]

Another theo-chronologist.

Theology doesn't dictate chronology. You can't make it up as you go along. Just because you want things to fall on certain days and dates, that doesn't mean they did. They happened when the scriptures say they happened. And what they say doesn't match what you advocate.

According to Col 2:16-18 it does.. it is the very embodiment of Yeshua.

Colossians 2 King James Version (KJV)
2 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh; 2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ; 3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words. 5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ. 6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: 7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

 

[AbbaLove]

Since the current Orthodox Haggadah is based on the outline set down by Hillel in the late first century bc, it is fairly close if you delete a lot of the "fluff" additions and readings. https://www.amazon.com/Messianic-Passover-Haggadah-David-Waggoner-ebook/dp/B00BL5XNFM

And that ain't elusive, but whether old or young we do seem to like the colorful illustrations via a 4-color Offset Printing Press ...

than the handsome blackish brown quill penmanship "set down by Hillel in the late first century bc,". Some might allude or elude to the possibility that "Messiancs" have become spoiled by machine technology. Supposedly Rabbinic Judaism is now experimenting with Hebrew Sefer Torah Scrolls printed using Silk Screen machinery, but is it Kosher anymore than the following machine operation ? ...

Robot Writes Complete Torah Scroll - Could It Be Kosher For Ritual Use?

If the robot had instead written on kosher animal hide and used a Kosher quill pen
would the Torah programmed by an Orthodox Rabbi then be Kosher for ritual use?

<B>Robot Writes Complete Torah Scroll - Could It Be Kosher For Ritual Use?</B>
​

 

[Dave-W]

If the robot had instead written on kosher animal hide and used a Kosher quill pen
would the Torah programmed by an Orthodox Rabbi then be Kosher for ritual use?

It would probably depend on which Orthodox community you asked. I am sure all Messianic, all Reform, probably all Conservative and maybe even Modern Orthodox.

The Haredi and Chassids, probably not.

 

[gadar perets]

Someone keeps lodging complaints, and I am no longer permitted to debate on this thread. Bye folks.

Sorry to hear that. Feel free to PM me the reference requests I made.

 

[davidbenephraim]

Is it possible"three days and three nights" is a Greek mistranslation being that their day didn't begin at sundown like the Jewish day? Are we to assume that a Greek translation of a original Aramic text (Matthew 12:40) is without any translation error when Hebrew is read from right to left.

Jonah 1:17 (Hebrew Bible)
י u·iei and·he-is-becoming ינָה iune Jonah בִּ מְ עֵ י b·moi in·bowels-of הַ דָּ ג e·dg the·fish שְׁ 1שָׁ ה shlshe three יָמִ ים imim days וּשְׁ 1שָׁ ה u·shlshe and·three לֵ ילת liluth nights

As we know Hebrew text (Jonah 1:17) is read from right to left which one could argue could be translated as "three nights and three days." This would then negate both a Wednesday and Friday crucifixion without the need for any so-called "synecdoche" logic; while legitimizing a 5th day (Thursday) crucifixion as well as all relevant verses (e.g. "after three days"). In other words sometime into the 4th day.

Just maybe, Matthew 12:40 should instead have been translated as ...
"For as Jonah was three nights and three days in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three nights and three days in the heart of the earth." (Matthew 12:40)

Night 1 = 5th day beginning at sundown to 5th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 1 = 5th day sunrise to 5th day sunsetting (12 hrs)
Night 2 = 6th day beginning at sundown to 6th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 2 = 6th day sunrise to 6th day sunsetting (12 hrs)
Night 3 = 7th day beginning at sundown to 7th day sunrise (12 hrs)
Day 3 = 7th day sunrise to 7th day sunsetting (12 hrs)
Night 4 = 1st day beginning at sundown to 1st day sunrise when Mary approached the tomb.
Is it not possible that Yeshua rose sometime during the first half of the 1st day of the week just before sunrise ("after three days")?​

There are other parallels to support "after three days" (into the 4th day) ...

There was a reason why Lazarus was in the tomb more than three days. Jesus waited four days because He knew of the Jewish superstition of that time. It was believed a soul stayed near the grave for three days, hoping to return to the body. Therefore, it was generally believed that by the fourth day there was no hope of resuscitation.

Revelation 9:8-10 NKJV
8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations will see their dead bodies three-and-a-half days, and not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves.
10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.
11 Now after the three-and-a-half days the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.

In the year that Yeshua was crucified, the Biblical Passover (Abib/Nisan 14) began at sundown on Tuesday that week. The rabbinic Passover which was and still is observed on Abib/Nisan 15 began at sundown on Wednesday. Anyway, Yeshua was arrested and put on trial by the Sanhedrin during the night of what we Americans call Tuesday night. I believe Yeshua died by crucifixion at 3:00 pm Wednesday afternoon on Abib/Nisan 14. Keep in mind the Pharisees observed Passover at sunset beginning the 24 hour period of Abib/Nisan 15. Therefore, I believe Yeshua's body was in the tomb as follows:

Wednesday night (sunset to sunrise): 1st night in the tomb
Thursday (sunrise to sunset): 1st day in the tomb
Thursday night (sunset to sunrise): 2nd night in the tomb
Friday (sunrise to sunset): 2nd day in the tomb
Friday night (sunset to sunrise): 3rd night in the tomb
Shabbat/Saturday (sunrise to sunset): 3rd day in the tomb

Yeshua's resurrection occurred at approximately 3:00 pm on the Sabbath day. When Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Yeshua came to His tomb early on Sunday morning, Yeshua was already resurrected. Keep in mind that the scripture says (in Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24, and John 20) that the women who went to Yeshua's tomb early on Sunday morning found His tomb empty. The scripture doesn't actually say that Yeshua's resurrection occurred early on Sunday morning. The traditional belief that Yeshua was resurrected early on Sunday morning is merely an assumption based on what I believe is a misreading of the Bible.

Also, it must be kept in mind that the guards who arrested Yeshua in the Garden of Gethsemane were Jewish Temple Guards. The Sanhedrin used the Jewish Temple Guards as a police force to enforce Jewish law. It was also Jewish Temple Guards posted outside Yeshua's tomb which explains how chief priests and elders of the Jews were able to bribe these guards to lie about Yeshua's resurrection. I mean if Roman soldiers had said they were asleep while on duty, Pontius Pilate would have had those Roman soldiers crucified and they wouldn't have lived long enough to spend the money they received as a bribe.

Shalom,

David

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

The first Pentecost fell on the Sabbath day.

http://www.torahtimes.org/writings/understanding-shavuot-chronology/article.html

The first Pentecost did not fall on the Sabbath day. This article claims when God gave Moses the law at Mt. Sinai it was not only the weekly Sabbath, it was Pentecost. However, Shavuot (Pentecost) did not even exist the year Israel left Egypt. There are two things you need to do before you can have a Shavuot. One of them is the waving of the Omer. This was done on the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the eating of the Passover meal. Another thing you need is a seven weekly Sabbath countdown from the waving of the Omer to Shavuot. Neither of these happened the year Israel left Egypt. The weekly Sabbath wasn't even revealed until several weeks after the departure from Egypt so there could be no seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot. Moreover, a careful reading of Leviticus 23 in a translation that uses the Hebrew text shows that the first waving of the Omer would occur the year Israel entered the Promised Land.

Furthermore, Israel never connected the giving of the Law with Shavuot until centuries after the Hebrew Scriptures were written. It was strictly an agricultural feast in the days of ancient Israel and the Second Temple. Late in the first century C.E., probably after the destruction of the Temple, Israel could no longer celebrate the sacrificial offerings in the Temple and those Jews who were scattered around the known world needed something new to observe on Shavuot so the rabbis tied the giving of the Law to Shavuot and it has been a Jewish tradition every since. There is not a single word about the law being given on Shavuot in the Holy Scriptures. It doesn't explicitly say the Law was given on the Sabbath either but a good case can be made the Law was indeed given on the Sabbath.

See here for more details. Just keep in mind not everything you read on the following link was not made by me. I use the name Saber Truth Tiger.

What is the correct date the Israelites arrived at Sinai?

After leaving Egypt, the Israelites traveled to Mount Sinai. Exodus 19:1 records their arrival: בחדש השלישי לצאת בני־ישראל מארץ מצרים ביום הזה באו מדבר סיני Apparently this date can be understood

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Yes, I'm aware of what you wrote. Does that mean that the Pharisees were correct?

The bigger problem with the Pharisee interpretation of “Sabbath” is when it comes to the end of the 50-day count. Leviticus 23:16 says,


“Until the morrow of the seventh Sabbath shall you count fifty days.”

This would only happen once every 7 years. The Pharisee have the last 'morrow of the seven Sabbath' landing on Monday, Tuesday, etc. where there isn't any Sabbath at all. This article contains several other supporting scriptures that show the Sadducees were correct in their interpretation.

The Truth About Shavuot - NehemiasWall.com

Hi Hank,

you are correct. The correct day to wave the Omer was the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the Passover meal. Jesus spoke the rules when he gave the rules to Moses in Leviticus 23 and in verse 11 he told Moses that the waving of the Omer was to be on the day after the Sabbath. If Nisan 15 was really a Sabbath why was Jesus so careless with his instructions to Moses about which Sabbath should precede the Omer? If you read a version of the Bible such as the NASB or ESV and examine Leviticus 23 in context you will see which Sabbath Jesus meant when he talked to Moses.

Begin with Leviticus 23: 2-3. (KJV)
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings

This is clearly speaking of the weekly Sabbath. I think most people would have no disagreements over this. It's interesting to note that the Sabbath is not mentioned again until verse 11. Here is what we read in verses 9-11:

9 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest: 11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the Lord, to be accepted for you: on the MORROW AFTER THE SABBATH the priest shall wave it.

The only Sabbath mentioned prior to the Sabbath in verse 11 is the Sabbath in verse 3 and that was the weekly Sabbath. Now, just consider: In context, which seems more likely, that the Sabbath in verse 11 refers to the weekly Sabbath in verse 3 or some other yet unnamed annual Sabbath? Keep in mind Jesus spoke these words to Moses. This will become extremely important later.

The fact of the matter is Leviticus 23 is the death knell of the annual Nisan 15 Sabbath. This chapter, in Hebrew, makes it clear there are only two holy convocations called Sabbath in the scriptures. The first and most recognized is the weekly Sabbath. It is called a Sabbath. Then, there is Yom Kippur, or as we know it, the Day of Atonement. It too is called a Sabbath. The remaining six holy convocations are rest days but are never called Sabbaths in the Hebrew Scriptures.

What sets apart a holy convocation that is called a Sabbath and those that are not? Read Leviticus 23 carefully and you will see that the Sabbaths forbid ALL work and the other six non-Sabbath holy convocations forbid only *servile* (KJV) work. The fact that only *servile* work is forbidden means there were some kinds of work that weren't.

By the time of the return of Israel from Babylonian captivity to their homeland the Jews, probably influenced by the Babylonian Nisan 15 Sabbath, the Jews began calling Nisan 15 a Sabbath. When the Septuagint was translated into Greek in the third century BCE the Jewish translators made subtle changes in Leviticus 23 that changed the waving of the Omer to the day after the first holy convocation of Nisan and did away with the waving of the Omer on the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the Passover meal.

This was the state of affairs when Jesus was on earth. There was a dispute between the Sadducees and the Pharisees over which day to wave the Omer. The Sadducees believed the Hebrew Scriptures taught that the waving of the Omer should be the day after the first weekly Sabbath of Passover. The Pharisees, on the other hand, believed the correct day to wave the Omer was the day after Nisan 15, the annual holy convocation. It is commonly taught that there was a time when the Sadducean method of observing the waving of the Omer was held to and no one is certain when it changed over to the Pharisee method as the Pharisees ended up controlling Temple worship with their erroneous idea that Nisan 15 was a Sabbath. I believe that when Jesus walked the earth the Pharisees were in control.

This is important. Jesus was the one who gave the law to Moses. Jesus spoke to Moses and told him the waving of the Omer was to occur on the day after the weekly Sabbath. Some people admit that the Nisan 15 cannot be said to be the Sabbath but they add that Jesus and his disciples called it a Sabbath in the Greek Scriptures because the nation of Israel celebrated it as a Sabbath. They insist that Jesus and his disciples recognized it as a Sabbath since the nation did. Nowhere is that taught in the Greek Scriptures. There is no mention in the New Testament of the Nisan 15 Sabbath because the inspired writers and Jesus would never have called it one. Jesus knew the correct day of the waving of the Omer and he chided the Pharisees for following the traditions of man. One of those traditions of man was the so-called Nisan 15 Sabbath. Jesus knew the correct one, not the Pharisees.

It's striking that the year Jesus died Nisan 15 fell on a Saturday and so both calendars, the erroneous Pharisee one and the correct Sadducean one, observed the waving of the Omer on Sunday, Nisan 16.

Here is more about this subject: Just keep in mind not every comment made in the following link was made by me. I use the name Saber Truth Tiger.

Can Nisan 15 be referred to as "the sabbath"?

6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you sha...

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

 

[daq]

The first Pentecost did not fall on the Sabbath day. This article claims when God gave Moses the law at Mt. Sinai it was not only the weekly Sabbath, it was Pentecost. However, Shavuot (Pentecost) did not even exist the year Israel left Egypt. There are two things you need to do before you can have a Shavuot. One of them is the waving of the Omer. This was done on the day after the first weekly Sabbath following the eating of the Passover meal. Another thing you need is a seven weekly Sabbath countdown from the waving of the Omer to Shavuot. Neither of these happened the year Israel left Egypt. The weekly Sabbath wasn't even revealed until several weeks after the departure from Egypt so there could be no seven Sabbath countdown toward Shavuot. Moreover, a careful reading of Leviticus 23 in a translation that uses the Hebrew text shows that the first waving of the Omer would occur the year Israel entered the Promised Land.

Furthermore, Israel never connected the giving of the Law with Shavuot until centuries after the Hebrew Scriptures were written. It was strictly an agricultural feast in the days of ancient Israel and the Second Temple. Late in the first century C.E., probably after the destruction of the Temple, Israel could no longer celebrate the sacrificial offerings in the Temple and those Jews who were scattered around the known world needed something new to observe on Shavuot so the rabbis tied the giving of the Law to Shavuot and it has been a Jewish tradition every since. There is not a single word about the law being given on Shavuot in the Holy Scriptures. It doesn't explicitly say the Law was given on the Sabbath either but a good case can be made the Law was indeed given on the Sabbath.

See here for more details.

What is the correct date the Israelites arrived at Sinai?

After leaving Egypt, the Israelites traveled to Mount Sinai. Exodus 19:1 records their arrival: בחדש השלישי לצאת בני־ישראל מארץ מצרים ביום הזה באו מדבר סיני Apparently this date can be understood

hermeneutics.stackexchange.com

Shalom Saber.

From your link:

"Hence, it was of paramount importance to the Rabbis that the giving of the Law be associated with Sivan 6, exactly 50 days AFTER the first so-called annual Sabbath of Passover in the first month of the Exodus. So in Exodus 19:1 when some translations say the children of Israel entered the wilderness of Sinai on the first day of the third month the Rabbis claim that Exodus 19:10-11 occurred on the fourth day of the month, three days later. However, that is total guesswork, as the scriptures do not state that."

The Exodus 19:1 text says "in this day" and therefore the date may indeed be known. The problem appears to be that either some have a bias to uphold/defend or that it simply isn't understood that the word hodesh is also used for the first day of the month, (any month). Thus when Moshe writes "in the third hodesh", and then later in the same statement writes "in this day", it is most likely that he is using the word hodesh for the first day of the third month, (i.e. rosh hodesh shelishi).

This therefore, if it be the case, (and I believe so), would support your commentary that Exodus 19:10-11 does not point to Sivan 6 on the Hillel (2) luni-solar calendar.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Shalom Saber.

From your link:

"Hence, it was of paramount importance to the Rabbis that the giving of the Law be associated with Sivan 6, exactly 50 days AFTER the first so-called annual Sabbath of Passover in the first month of the Exodus. So in Exodus 19:1 when some translations say the children of Israel entered the wilderness of Sinai on the first day of the third month the Rabbis claim that Exodus 19:10-11 occurred on the fourth day of the month, three days later. However, that is total guesswork, as the scriptures do not state that."

The Exodus 19:1 text says "in this day" and therefore the date may indeed be known. The problem appears to be that either some have a bias to uphold/defend or that it simply isn't understood that the word hodesh is also used for the first day of the month, (any month). Thus when Moshe writes "in the third hodesh", and then later in the same statement writes "in this day", it is most likely that he is using the word hodesh for the first day of the third month, (i.e. rosh hodesh shelishi).

This therefore, if it be the case, (and I believe so), would support your commentary that Exodus 19:10-11 does not point to Sivan 6 on the Hillel (2) luni-solar calendar.

Shalom Daq
My link on the post you quoted has other people's quotes on it so be careful when you read it. I post under the name Saber Truth Tiger. There are others who comment on that link and the one you quoted above was not mine.

 

[daq]

Shalom Daq
My link on the post you quoted has other people's quotes on it so be careful when you read it. I post under the name Saber Truth Tiger. There are others who comment on that link and the one you quoted above was not mine.

That's strange: the post from which I took the quote says "by Saber Truth Tiger" at the top of the post and again has that same screen name at the bottom right corner where it says "answered Jul 17, 2022 at 1:14".

Here is a screen shot which contains the quote.

Was this you quoting someone else?
Perhaps I am just not familiar enough with Stack Exchange.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

No, you are correct. My bad. I totally forgot posting that. Thank You for correcting me.

 

[daq]

No, you are correct. My bad. I totally forgot posting that. Thank You for correcting me.

It's all good, (but I am glad my eyes are not so bad as I was beginning to think, ).

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Traditional Judaism has many errors. One of these as pointed out by Eben Ezra and Jacob Milgrom (JPS Torah Commentary) is the teaching that a day begins at sunset. This view is not according to the Messianic Faith. Only Sabbaths begin at sunset. The rest of days begin at dawn as explained here:

Source: TWOT.

Shalom,

The idea the Jews began the Sabbath at sunset but the remaining six days of the week began at sunrise doesn't make sense. Take a look at the following:

Sunday sunrise to Monday sunrise one day and one night 1st Day

Monday sunrise to Tuesday sunrise one day and one night 2nd Day

Tuesday sunrise to Wednesday sunrise one day and one night 3rd Day

Wednesday sunrise to Thursday sunrise one day and night 4th Day

Thursday sunrise to Friday sunrise one day and night 5th Day

Friday sunrise to Friday sunset is one daytime only because, according to Gregg’s theory, Sabbath begins at sunset Friday. So, Friday sunrise to Friday sunset is only a day of light with no night. And it is the 6th day.

The Sabbath begins on Friday sunset and ends on Saturday morning, right? If Gregg’s theory was that only the Sabbaths began at sunset, then that would mean the day after the Sabbath would begin at sunrise. That would make the Sabbath a 12-hour nighttime. The first day of the week would therefore begin at sunrise, Saturday. That doesn’t make any sense at all, so why should I believe it?

Suppose the Sabbath begins at Friday sunset and the first day of the week begins at Sunday sunrise. That would mean the Sabbath would last 36 hours and not 24. But that’s what Gregg is claiming. Sunday through Friday all begin at sunrise, but the Sabbath begins at Friday sunset. If Sunday, the first day of the week begins at sunrise, then that means the Sabbath is 36 hours long. It doesn’t add up.

Just think about this for a moment.

 

[Saber Truth Tiger]

Begging the question. X = Y means Z fallacy. You have to assume the exception is ONLY the day of atonement. Whereas John 19:31 has Nisan 15 as "the Sabbath", and you have to assume calling Nisan 15 "the Sabbath" is only a late tradition. Defending one's point of view with further assumptions is a violation of proper reasoning (a.k.a. Okkam's Razor).

Hank 77 wrote: I

Indeed, in the OT there was only one other day that was called a Sabbath besides the 7th day Sabbath. That day was the Day of Atonement.

Daniel Gregg
Begging the question. X = Y means Z fallacy. You have to assume the exception is ONLY the day of atonement. Whereas John 19:31 has Nisan 15 as "the Sabbath", and you have to assume calling Nisan 15 "the Sabbath" is only a late tradition. Defending one's point of view with further assumptions is a violation of proper reasoning (a.k.a. Okkam's Razor).

SABER TRUTH TIGER
No assumption is necessary. The clear reading of the Hebrew text, as evidenced by many translations, show that only the weekly Saturday and the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) were Sabbaths. Read Leviticus 23. You are the one adding the Sabbath designation to Nisan 15 where it clearly doesn't belong as attested by the Hebrew Scriptures.

John 19:31 is not addressing Nisan 15 as a Sabbath but rather, the weekly Sabbath on which a high day fell. If July 4 fell on a Thursday and I told you this Thursday was a holiday would it mean that Thursday itself was a holiday or would it mean the holiday fell on the Thursday? Nisan 15 fell on a weekly Sabbath the year Jesus died. You assume calling Nisan 15 "the Sabbath" is correct when in actuality it was never a Sabbath until sometime in about the middle of the sixth century BCE, probably during the Babylonian servitude. 1) Nowhere in the Hebrew Scriptures is Nisan 15 called a Sabbath. Nowhere! 2) You claim that Nisan 15 is a Sabbath without biblical evidence. 3) You are relying on an erroneous "translation" of the LXX in Leviticus 23:11. 4) The LXX in Leviticus 23:11 does not so much translate the Hebrew word "Sabbath" into Greek as it interprets the Hebrew word into "FIRST DAY" in the greek. 5) You claim it, therefore, you prove it. You are following an ancient Jewish tradition dating back to the time of Jesus Christ. At the time of Christ there were two major factions of the Jewish religion. The Sadducees clung to the Hebrew reckoning of the Omer and the Pharisees clung to the erroneous Septuagint reckoning of the verse.