The Jews to be kept safe during the Great Tribulation

[Billy Evmur]

Two people, Two Promises. [TP,TP] The doctrine that God will restore and bless the Jews after He has taken the Church to heaven, has been thoroughly debunked here before, but many still grip onto it, as their beliefs demand it.

The error that most have, is in assigning the prophesies for Israel to the Jewish State of Israel. The Bible prophets always carefully separate Judah and Israel and they remain separate today. Judah, the Jewish people, who wrongly call their country Israel, have many specific prophesies of how God will deal with them in these end times.
But Israel is different, one of the best examples of what the Lord will do to each is in Amos 2:4-5; for Judah and Amos 2:6-16 for Israel. Also Jeremiah 19:10-12 and Jeremiah 18:6; Judah smashed beyond repair and Israel remoulded.

So the question is: Who is the true Israel? We know the correct Biblical answer; it is every born again Christian, the Lord's chosen people, 1 Peter 2:9-10, and those bought by His blood, Revelation 5:9-10.
THEY are the faithful Israel of God, Galatians 6:14-16, His Overcomers, literally: true Israelites.
With that truth in mind, the prophesies make sense and we can know our destiny; how the Lord promises to save and Bless all who put their trust in Him. Jeremiah 17:7-8


The idea that the Jewish people still have God's favour, is sadly mistaken. They have had nearly 2000 years of God's grace for them to accept their Messiah. This has not and will not happen, as Jesus knew they wouldn't. That is why He said that He would save the lost House of Israel. the other ten tribes, still in exile, who have largely accepted Jesus and are now His Overcomers, the genuine Israelites of God.

The true Israelites of God are every faithful Christian, from every tribe, race, nation and language. That is how it has been from the beginning; the congregation, the ekkelasia; the church of faithful believers, from Abel, to Elijah's 7000, to the few survivors after 40 years in the desert, to the Pilgrim Fathers, to today’s faithful Christian believers.

Do you pray for Israel? For the people currently occupying the holy Land? Those people who are 50% atheists, who practice Judaism and other religion's far removed from Biblical truths, who approve of the LGBT lifestyle, those proud, arrogant Israeli’s whose nation was founded on communistic principals?
Are they God’s people? No; 1 Peter 2:9-10 and all the NT teaching proves they are not.

We are specifically told to NOT pray for the Jews. Jeremiah 11:14, 14:10-12

You want to quote Amos? why not quote Amos 9.13-15? Behold the days come saith the Lord that the ploughman shall overtake the reaper and the treader of grapes him that soweth seed and the mountains shall drop sweet wine and all the hills will melt

And I will bring again the captivity of My people Israel and they shall build the cities and shall dwell in them and they shall plant vineyards and drink the wine thereof, they shall also make gardens and eat the fruit thereof.

And I will plant them upon their land which I have given them and they shall NO MORE be pulled up out of the land which I have given them.

NO MORE...so this prophesies a time after the great diaspora.

You quote Jeremiah why not quote Jeremiah 30 where God specifically says He will save them from the time of Jacob's trouble...they shall lie down in peace and NONE shall make them afraid.

Why not quote Micah 4.?

 

[jgr]

You can cobble any amount of scriptures together into a compendium, totally disregard the context of each scripture, totally ignore other scripture which say something different and offer it as evidence to prove any doctrine.

Those people who deny that Christ is God do that by pointing to all the scriptures that show He is a man [which nobody denies] but completely ignore all the scriptures that show that He is God.

I always reject their evidence too.

So what compendium would the vast repository of Scriptural and historical evidence of the fulfillments of Jesus' prophecies and predictions in Matthew 24 represent?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

So Paul was wrong? you would say ALL British were Monarchists but actually some of us are republicans.

...No Paul was right...He wrote Romans 9:
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Bill....Paul quotes Isa.17times between ch.9-15

here Isa, and Hosea-
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

 

[iamlamad]

Prophets do prophecy. Futurists do fantasy.

They have nothing in common.

I think you have it wrong: futurists BELIEVE God's prophecies.

 

[jgr]

I think you have it wrong: futurists BELIEVE God's prophecies.

Futurists refuse to believe what God has already done.

 

[usexpat97]

I will give this much: okay, maybe the Jews indeed are kept safe during the future Tribulation. And I lean toward futurist.

It's after that when they should be worried about.

 

[keras]

Futurists refuse to believe what God has already done.

Preterists say its all done and dusted, without any historical evidence of the tremendous cosmic and devastating earthly things, that the Prophets plainly describe.
Some are allegorical, but most are events that can and will take place as described.

 

[keras]

I will give this much: okay, maybe the Jews indeed are kept safe during the future Tribulation. And I lean toward futurist.

It's after that when they should be worried about.

Actually, over 20 prophesies plainly state that the House of Judah, the Jewish people, will be decimated in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18
Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Zechariah 13:9, Isaiah 4:3

 

[Dave L]

Nay Augustine thought this present age was the reign of Christ with His people. Post Mill is the reign as described after the Lord's return, which I believe.

Jesus was Amillennial. The kingdom is spiritual and here now. No physical millennium in the future. He says his kingdom in not of this world, it doesn't come with observation. Flesh and blood cannot enter it. Only the born again can see it..... as so on.

 

[usexpat97]

Actually, over 20 prophesies plainly state that the House of Judah, the Jewish people, will be decimated in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18
Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Zechariah 13:9, Isaiah 4:3

I'm not THAT futurist. You're quoting several OT verses that already happened in 1st-3rd century AD. Once a prophecy is fulfilled once, I see no need for God to fulfill it a second time.

But regardless, it's the judgement after the Tribulation everyone should be more worried about. If you don't know Christ, you're dead. Again. Your "jewishness" is of no value to you then. Paul said it isn't even of any value to you now.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Preterists say its all done and dusted, without any historical evidence of the tremendous cosmic and devastating earthly things, that the Prophets plainly describe.
Some are allegorical, but most are events that can and will take place as described.

Hello Keras,
If a star fell to the earth...would that be the last day?
Most stars are larger than our sun.

 

[keras]

Hello Keras,
If a star fell to the earth...would that be the last day?
Most stars are larger than our sun.

At the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event, 'asters'- Greek for stars; the stars in the sky will fall like ripe figs. Revelation 6:13
As it is simply impossible for actual stars, like Alpha Centuri, to fall onto the earth; they are too far away and would obliterate the earth, then I see this prophecy as referring to our satellites.
What the Lord will use on His Day of wrath, will be an explosion of the suns surface. A Coronal Mass Ejection of an unprecedented magnitude. Isaiah 30:26a and Malachi 4:1 prove this.

We have experienced many small CME's and the mass ejected has affected our satellites, forcing some into a lower orbit. The big CME that the Lord will instigate, will cause all the satellites facing the sun to crash back to the earth and all the other vividly described effects. Like the moon reflecting blood red, tectonic plate movement from the microwave penetration of the earths crust, etc.

It will be on this Day that the entire Middle East region will be virtually depopulated. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Jeremiah 10:18, so the OP of this thread is wrong, because only a remnant of Israel will be saved, Romans 9:27, they will shelter underground, Isaiah 29:4, and will join with their Christian brethren soon after that Day, Jeremiah 50:4-5

 

[BABerean2]

At the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event, 'asters'- Greek for stars; the stars in the sky will fall like ripe figs. Revelation 6:13

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Stars are used as a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Jesus was Amillennial. The kingdom is spiritual and here now. No physical millennium in the future. He says his kingdom in not of this world, it doesn't come with observation. Flesh and blood cannot enter it. Only the born again can see it..... as so on.

...er

"My kingdom is not now of this world"

Is it so? Paul says God's will for the fulness of time is to unite all things in Christ, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven. That is God's plan.

Now this uniting of all things in Christ, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven can never happen before Christ returns because we are told what conditions we must expect to prevail. Wars, scandals, earthquakes, roaring waves, famine...men hating God.

Reads a bit like the newspapers doesn't it.

So it is for the age after Christ returns. "The fulness of times" is a synonym for the Millennium.

Ephesians.1.
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both things which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.

It is what Jesus taught us to pray "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven...." even as it is in heaven.

 

[Billy Evmur]

...er

"My kingdom is not now of this world"

Is it so? Paul says God's will for the fulness of time is to unite all things in Christ, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven. That is God's plan.

Now this uniting of all things in Christ, whether they be things on earth or things in heaven can never happen before Christ returns because we are told what conditions we must expect to prevail. Wars, scandals, earthquakes, roaring waves, famine...men hating God.

Reads a bit like the newspapers doesn't it.

So it is for the age after Christ returns. "The fulness of times" is a synonym for the Millennium.

Ephesians.1.
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both things which are in heaven and which are on earth, even in Him.

It is what Jesus taught us to pray "Thy kingdom come Thy will be done ON EARTH as it is in heaven...." even as it is in heaven.

When Jesus comes we shall not all die but we shall all be changed in the twink of an eye, perishable will put on imperishable......so as you say flesh and blood does not inherit the kingdom.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Actually, over 20 prophesies plainly state that the House of Judah, the Jewish people, will be decimated in the next prophesied event; the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath. Amos 2:4-5, Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18
Only a remnant will survive. Romans 9:27, Zechariah 13:9, Isaiah 4:3

Oh we know all that. Nobody is denying it...don't you think the Jews were decimated in Europe?

We don't deny Israel's fall...YOU deny their restoration...even when it is stated in the same passage which speaks of their fall.

Don't quote me Isaiah about the punishment which was to fall on Israel bruv...we know all about it. Only quote it if you will quote the later prophecies of Isaiah which speak about Israel's rise and restoration.

Arise shine for your light is come and stuff...comfort ye My people tell them I am coming to save them.

 

[Billy Evmur]

Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Stars are used as a symbol of angels in the Book of Revelation.


Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

.

No 2 Christians agree on how to interpret Revelations ...good luck with yours.

The kings of the earth and the great men and the rich men and the mighty men and every bondman and every freeman

And every Jew...oh wait a minute, it doesn't say that.

The wrath of the Lamb is directed at the nations and the army which comes up with Antichrist when he invades Jerusalem.

 

[Billy Evmur]

...No Paul was right...He wrote Romans 9:
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son

10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.


Bill....Paul quotes Isa.17times between ch.9-15

here Isa, and Hosea-
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.

26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.

29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.

30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.

31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.

32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

*

It was the seed of Isaac who cried for our Lord to be crucified. And it was upon that generation of Jews that all the guilt of for persecution and killing of prophets and apostles fell...it was a wicked generation, and even then it was the leaders of them...the crowds followed Jesus so much so that the leaders declared that the whole world was gone after Him.

The crowds deserted Him at the cross...but a few days later they were back responding to the apostles. The church of Acts was not small.

You talk about election, so does Paul. He said they are enemies of the gospel for your sakes but as touching the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.
The gifts and calling are without repentance...they were elect BEFORE they did right or wrong. Election is by grace as much as our salvation.

Israel will be restored.

 

[BABerean2]

No 2 Christians agree on how to interpret Revelations ...good luck with yours.

I will go with Christ's interpretation in Revelation 1:20...

It is His, instead of mine.

.........................................................................................

"Israel will be restored."

I will go with Paul's interpretation of your statement found above.


Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.


Rom 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:


Paul begins Romans 11 with two different groups of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5.
One group was faithful and the other was not.
Paul ends the passage in the same way with two different groups of "they" in the verse below.
The "election" accepted Christ, and the others were "enemies" of the Gospel.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

.

 

[jgr]

No 2 Christians agree on how to interpret Revelations ...good luck with yours.

I'm the 2nd who agrees with BAB2's interpretation, and not the last.

In my Bible the book's name is Revelation. Is yours different?

The kings of the earth and the great men and the rich men and the mighty men and every bondman and every freeman

And every Jew...oh wait a minute, it doesn't say that.

I know, and know of, plenty of rich Jews. They're in there too.

The wrath of the Lamb is directed at the nations and the army which comes up with Antichrist when he invades Jerusalem.

Here's what my Bible says about antichrist(s). Not a one with a capital A:

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


No reference to invasion or Jerusalem.

Futurist fantasy.