The Jews to be kept safe during the Great Tribulation

BABerean2

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This is to misunderstand the purpose of the remnant which was to the whole nation back to God.

In saying that the church is the Israel of God, which is not in dispute, you cannot then conflate the spiritual Israel with the natural Israel and apply the promises of Jeremiah 31 to the church.

The promises in Jere.31 are so far different to anything ever promised to the church.

We are not promised lands and vineyards, we are not to be gathered from the north country or the ends of the earth to go up to the house of Jacob.

There are 2 promises, 2 inheritances, one is heaven the other is the earth, the land.

We are definitely promised heaven, the Jews are definitely promised the earth. If God now reneges on His promise to the Jews that they should inherit the earth, why would He not renege on His promise to us?

God will never renege.

You are promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War. It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and spread like a virus through the modern Church.

In the words of Christ below we find that there is only one people of God, instead of two.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


You are ignoring who is the "heir" to the land in the passage below.

Mat 21:37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'
Mat 21:38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
Mat 21:39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
Mat 21:41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.


You are attempting to give the land back to those who reject the "chief cornerstone".
Those who accept the "chief cornerstone" are the "holy nation" found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.


Your claim that the New Covenant does not apply to the Church falls apart in the passage below.


Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


The New Covenant: Bob George

...........................................................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.

 
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BABerean2

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What do you guys make of this?

James 1:1 King James Version (KJV)
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

It is one of several passages which kill the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Another one is when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter 2.

Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken "first" to Israel in Matthew 10:5-7. This fact is confirmed in Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.


Nobody can honestly deny that when the Church first began it was made up of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

.
 
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Dave L

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Oh yes...God says so.

There are more than one references to the coming time of trouble in scripture but only once does it go by the term "the time of Jacob's trouble" This is to be found in the 30th chapter of Jeremiah...what does God say about the "time of Jacob's trouble" the great tribulation as it relates to Israel?

2. Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel saying. 5. For thus saith the Lord, we have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not peace.

6.Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces are turned to paleness?

7. Alas for that day is great so that none is like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT...but he shall be saved out of it.

8. For it shall come to pass in that day saith the Lord of hosts that I will break his yoke from off thy neck and will burst thy bonds and strangers will no more feed themselves of him. 9. but they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.

10. Therefore FEAR THOU NOT o My servant Jacob saith the Lord, NEITHER BE DISMAYED o Israel for lo I WILL SAVE THEE FROM AFAR and thy seed from the land of their captivity and Jacob shall return and SHALL BE IN REST and BE QUIET and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.

11 For I am with thee saith the Lord TO SAVE THEE, though I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee yet will I not make a full end of you but I will correct thee in measure and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

God says it is not the man who travails with child [Israel is God's firstborn son] but it is the woman [the church is the Bride]

It is called Jacob's trouble because God has a quarrel with the nations about how they have treated the Jews during their long diaspora, the trouble is for the nations and the church is in the nations.
The great tribulation happened in 70 AD with Jerusalem's destruction. And they certainly were not kept safe in that.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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After warning Christians not to boast themselves against the Jews Paul teaches this

As concerning the gospel they are enemies FOR YOUR SAKE but as concerning the election they are beloved for the father's sake

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

They are still elect, they are still beloved...the election is by grace not by any deed of righteousness. As with us so with them.
Not all Israel is of Israel rom9:6-8
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Oh yes...God says so.

There are more than one references to the coming time of trouble in scripture but only once does it go by the term "the time of Jacob's trouble" This is to be found in the 30th chapter of Jeremiah...what does God say about the "time of Jacob's trouble" the great tribulation as it relates to Israel?

2. Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel saying. 5. For thus saith the Lord, we have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not peace.

6.Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces are turned to paleness?

7. Alas for that day is great so that none is like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT...but he shall be saved out of it.

8. For it shall come to pass in that day saith the Lord of hosts that I will break his yoke from off thy neck and will burst thy bonds and strangers will no more feed themselves of him. 9. but they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.

10. Therefore FEAR THOU NOT o My servant Jacob saith the Lord, NEITHER BE DISMAYED o Israel for lo I WILL SAVE THEE FROM AFAR and thy seed from the land of their captivity and Jacob shall return and SHALL BE IN REST and BE QUIET and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.

11 For I am with thee saith the Lord TO SAVE THEE, though I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee yet will I not make a full end of you but I will correct thee in measure and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

God says it is not the man who travails with child [Israel is God's firstborn son] but it is the woman [the church is the Bride]

It is called Jacob's trouble because God has a quarrel with the nations about how they have treated the Jews during their long diaspora, the trouble is for the nations and the church is in the nations.

I have always wondered what condition the Jews were in before the great tribulation time period. All who have died since the resurection. Do they not count? The further back we go in time the more pure the Jewish lineage can be traced. What will be their condition on the day of judgment ? Are they all saved ? Thank you in advance for your answer.
 
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iamlamad

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Oh yes...God says so.

There are more than one references to the coming time of trouble in scripture but only once does it go by the term "the time of Jacob's trouble" This is to be found in the 30th chapter of Jeremiah...what does God say about the "time of Jacob's trouble" the great tribulation as it relates to Israel?

2. Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel saying. 5. For thus saith the Lord, we have heard a voice of trembling, of fear and not peace.

6.Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces are turned to paleness?

7. Alas for that day is great so that none is like it. It is even the time of Jacob's trouble BUT...but he shall be saved out of it.

8. For it shall come to pass in that day saith the Lord of hosts that I will break his yoke from off thy neck and will burst thy bonds and strangers will no more feed themselves of him. 9. but they shall serve the Lord their God and David their King whom I will raise up for them.

10. Therefore FEAR THOU NOT o My servant Jacob saith the Lord, NEITHER BE DISMAYED o Israel for lo I WILL SAVE THEE FROM AFAR and thy seed from the land of their captivity and Jacob shall return and SHALL BE IN REST and BE QUIET and NONE SHALL MAKE HIM AFRAID.

11 For I am with thee saith the Lord TO SAVE THEE, though I will make a full end of all the nations whither I have scattered thee yet will I not make a full end of you but I will correct thee in measure and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.

God says it is not the man who travails with child [Israel is God's firstborn son] but it is the woman [the church is the Bride]

It is called Jacob's trouble because God has a quarrel with the nations about how they have treated the Jews during their long diaspora, the trouble is for the nations and the church is in the nations.

Wrong! Error! You are missing the word "AS"
He is talking about MEN, now women.

6.Ask ye now and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins as a woman in travail and all faces are turned to paleness?

Women may fear birth pains, at least for the first birth. But when men know the Day of the Lord has come, they are scared out of their wits, so to speak.

Therefore, this following statement is bogus, based on false premises.

God says it is not the man who travails with child [Israel is God's firstborn son] but it is the woman [the church is the Bride]
 
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Billy Evmur

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You are promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine, which was brought to America by John Nelson Darby, about the time of the Civil War. It was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and spread like a virus through the modern Church.

In the words of Christ below we find that there is only one people of God, instead of two.


Joh 10:16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.


You are ignoring who is the "heir" to the land in the passage below.

Mat 21:37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, 'They will respect my son.'

Mat 21:38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, 'This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.'
Mat 21:39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him.
Mat 21:40 "Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?"
Mat 21:41 They said to Him, "He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons."
Mat 21:42 Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE. THIS WAS THE LORD'S DOING, AND IT IS MARVELOUS IN OUR EYES' ?
Mat 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.



You are attempting to give the land back to those who reject the "chief cornerstone".

Those who accept the "chief cornerstone" are the "holy nation" found in 1 Peter 2:4-10.


Your claim that the New Covenant does not apply to the Church falls apart in the passage below.

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


The New Covenant: Bob George

...........................................................................................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

.
What I believe has nothing to do with Schoffield or Darby...the patristic church believed in the restoration of Israel in the last days...they also believed in the 1,000 year reign. so it is ancient church doctrine.

You keep quoting Hebrews...who was the book of Hebrews written to?

I do not doubt that God has made a new covenant with Israel which is the covenant which we have ben given an inheritance

We have says Paul been made fellow citizens of THEIR commonwealth, we have he says been made partakers and inheritors of THEIR covenants of promise not by obeying the law or observing ordinance but through Christ.

We have says Paul been grafted into THEIR vine. Is that something we should exalt ourselves over the Jews about...isn't unseemly? Paul warns against it.

These are the facts YOU ignore.
 
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Billy Evmur

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Jas 1:1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
Jas 1:3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

It is one of several passages which kill the Two Peoples of God doctrine.

Another one is when Peter addressed the crowd as "all the house of Israel", on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts chapter 2.

Christ commanded that the Gospel be taken "first" to Israel in Matthew 10:5-7. This fact is confirmed in Romans 1:16, and Galatians 1:14-18.


Nobody can honestly deny that when the Church first began it was made up of Israelites. The Gentiles were grafted in several years later.

.

I may start another thread to discuss this...
 
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Dave L

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Hah! there you are...:)

I do not believe it.
Can't argue with that. Except Jesus says it will be as in the days of Noah when he returns, no tribulation. Just marrying and giving in marriage, much like today. In fact, he could return today.
 
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Billy Evmur

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Can't argue with that. Except Jesus says it will be as in the days of Noah when he returns, no tribulation. Just marrying and giving in marriage, much like today. In fact, he could return today.

Ah but could He ?

Does He come at the beginning of Antichrist or at the end..does He not destroy the man of sin by the breath of His mouth and the brightness of His appearing? so He comes at the end of Antichrist's reign.
 
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Dave L

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Ah but could He ?

Does He come at the beginning of Antichrist or at the end..does He not destroy the man of sin by the breath of His mouth and the brightness of His appearing? so He comes at the end of Antichrist's reign.
Antichrist has already been here since long ago and remains dormant for now, but will be looming once again. But you must know what our forefathers said about this in their creeds.
 
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Billy Evmur

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Antichrist has already been here since long ago and remains dormant for now, but will be looming once again. But you must know what our forefathers said about this in their creeds.

You mean Josephus

No I do not believe the Preterist theology.
 
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keras

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Will you dispute Paul?
Billy, I see that you are a very sincere person, but your fixed beliefs lead you to make statements that conflict with Bible truth.
It is beyond dispute that there is but One people of God, Jesus made that quite clear; John 17:20-23, also Romans 2:10-11, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14, +

We must know and understand the reality's of todays peoples;
Israelis: The current inhabitants of the State of Israel.
Israelites: Descendants of Abraham, either by actual descent or by faith, as per Galatians 3:26-29, from Isaac and Jacob, or those people grafted in by reason of righteousness. Only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9, Romans 9:6

Most Western Christians view modern Israelis as a continuation of the ancient Biblical drama of Israel and as the inheritors of the traditional role that the Jews have played through the ages. Through them, we have a universal moral code of justice: the Ten Commandments. These Divinely inspired Laws form the basis of our Judeo/Christian morality and ethics. Therefore modern Israel has been expected to reflect a high level of justice and morality in its actions.

Jewish teaching also says that history is not as the Greeks taught it, that is: a cyclical series of events in which mankind gets no better or no worse. The Torah, the Talmud and the Mishnah, all teach that we can steadily uplift human society and eventually there will come a Messianic era of true peace and harmony.

Although the State of Israel does display restraint in their dealings with their neighbours, it can hardly be said that they maintain Biblical precepts, such as ‘Love thy neighbour’. And as for moral leadership, Israeli’s are a seriously bad example!

What then of the prophesies that say the Israelites are a chosen people, destined to be a ‘light to the nations’? We must be aware and keep in mind that the Jewish people are comprised of only 2 tribes, of the original 12 sons of Jacob. [Parts of some other tribes are assimilated.] Ezekiel 22:15 The Jewish Israeli people are just ‘the budding of the fig tree’, a first fruit of the final regathering of ALL the Israelite people.

We are told in many prophecies that Judah will be judged and punished for their many sins, but a remnant will survive to become a ‘holy seed in the Land’. Isaiah 6:13 Then, the great spiritual regeneration and rejoining of all the Israelites will take place; Ezekiel 37:1-19, and as Ezekiel 37:20-28 goes on to say: I shall make them a single nation in the holy Land and I shall pour out My Spirit upon them. Isaiah 44:1-5

Then the Lord’s righteous people, His faithful Christians, the Israelites of God will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16
 
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Billy, I see that you are a very sincere person, but your fixed beliefs lead you to make statements that conflict with Bible truth.
It is beyond dispute that there is but One people of God, Jesus made that quite clear; John 17:20-23, also Romans 2:10-11, 1 Corinthians 12:12-14, +

We must know and understand the reality's of todays peoples;
Israelis: The current inhabitants of the State of Israel.
Israelites: True descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, or those people grafted in by reason of righteousness. Only God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9, Romans 9:6

Most Western Christians view modern Israelis as a continuation of the ancient Biblical drama of Israel and as the inheritors of the traditional role that the Jews have played through the ages. Through them, we have a universal moral code of justice: the Ten Commandments. These Divinely inspired Laws form the basis of our Judeo/Christian morality and ethics. Therefore modern Israel has been expected to reflect a high level of justice and morality in its actions.

Jewish teaching also says that history is not as the Greeks taught it, that is: a cyclical series of events in which mankind gets no better or no worse. The Torah, the Talmud and the Mishnah, all teach that we can steadily uplift human society and eventually there will come a Messianic era of true peace and harmony.

Although the State of Israel does display restraint in their dealings with their neighbours, it can hardly be said that they maintain Biblical precepts, such as ‘Love thy neighbour’. And as for moral leadership, Israeli’s are a seriously bad example!

What then of the prophesies that say the Israelites are a chosen people, destined to be a ‘light to the nations’? We must be aware and keep in mind that the Jewish people are comprised of only 2 tribes, of the original 12 sons of Jacob. [Parts of some other tribes are assimilated.] Ezekiel 22:15 The Jewish Israeli people are just ‘the budding of the fig tree’, a first fruit of the final regathering of ALL the Israelite people.

We are told in many prophecies that Judah will be judged and punished for their many sins, but a remnant will survive to become a ‘holy seed in the Land’. Isaiah 6:13 Then, the great spiritual regeneration and rejoining of all the Israelites will take place; Ezekiel 37:1-19, and as Ezekiel 37:20-28 goes on to say: I shall make them a single nation in the holy Land and I shall pour out My Spirit upon them. Isaiah 44:1-5

Then the Lord’s righteous people, His faithful Christians, the Israelites of God will be His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10, John 15:27 and His Light to the nations. Isaiah 49:8, Matthew 5:14-16

Mebbe I will start a new thread because I sniff a long tangled debate here.

You say they are to inherit the land, actually they are promised the ends of the earth, wherever their feet have trodden...Israel have clear different promises made to them to the promises we as the Body of Christ have received...the BOC includes the Jewish church.
 
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