Jerusalem - mystery Babylon because of Revelation 11:8?

Copperhead

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Well, use of the same Greek word does not mean the same time frame, just like use of the same Hebrew word doesn't mean the same time frame.

The big problem with tying Revelation in with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is that the book was written after 70AD. I know that some, like Hank Hanegraff and others have tried to date it earlier, but a major debate was held between Hanegraff and Mark Hitchcock where it was shown beyond a reasonable doubt (Hitchcock is a lawyer) that Revelation has a later date of authorship. And it is quite a stretch to make the case that Revelation is a history book as opposed to a prophetic book.
 
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berachah

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And there it is, folks. Prophecy fulfilled! Jerusalem would be a stumbling stone to the world.

I will rest on Ezekiel (in conjunction with Leviticus) as well as Isaiah for the literal fulfillment of a regathered national Israel. Yes, initially in unbelief. And the requirement that a corporate, collective, national Israel leadership be in place at the end time to recognize their national leadership's rejection of Yeshua, turn to Him, and petition His return. Yeshua is quite clear in Hosea that until Israel (both Israel and Judah) does this, He will not return. He reaffirmed that in Matthew 23.

It has nothing to do with corporate, collective or national return. It is the Jewish faith accepting the truth of Christ as a religion. Totally void of any connection to this demonic state in Palestine.

And if the Church is now Jacob (Israel), then it begs the question... when did the Church reject Yeshua before He returned to His place as stated in Hosea? Especially since the Church was not an entity until after Yeshua returned to His place. That same entity that rejected Yeshua, according to Hosea, must be the entity that realizes that offense, turns to Him, and petitions for His return.

Incredible ignorance of end times! The scripture is clear there is a falling away before the end

And if there is no longer any real physical Hebrews left, then we might as well give up. Yeshua is never coming back. That there are no physical Hebrews left is absurd. Even Obed, of the Messianic lineage, was only 25% Hebrew. But he was still in the lineage of Yeshua. So there never has been a requirement that one be a majority Hebrew in their genetics to be considered a physical Hebrew. And there have been genetic markers and statistical studies established that show the Hebrew genetic lineage is not gone.

I suggest you go read the purity laws of the OT & the demands of Ezra on the returning Jews. The entire law must be fulfilled 100% or those that follow it are under a curse - Galatians

So one who claims to trust in Yeshua better hope there is a physical, national, corporate Jacob (Israel) complete with leadership in place to petition Yeshua's return, or they can forget the idea of Yeshua ever returning, if Yeshua told us the truth in Hosea. Amazing how a group that claims to know Yeshua and claims to look forward His return will go to great lengths to negate the conduit that facilitates that return. Could cause one to wonder if they follow another Yeshua (Jesus).
Thessalonians clearly states Christ will return to magnified within the body of Christ.

The problem with these carnal interpretations is they conveniently pick and chose which scriptures were relevant to Israel and which are not.

Israel is the conduit for the antichrist world govt nothing less. The Jews will persecute Christians just as cruelly did in the Russian revolution Armenia and every other they have gained power.

Of course they return to God, but it through Christ and has nothing to do with the old land, temple or covenant. End of story.
 
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Copperhead

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It has nothing to do with corporate, collective or national return. It is the Jewish faith accepting the truth of Christ as a religion. Totally void of any connection to this demonic state in Palestine.

I would be extremely cautious if I were you. "Palestine" is not the name of the territory. Never has been. It was the name, in Latin, that the Romans gave to the land. It is from "Philistine" the name of the long term enemies of Israel in the Bible. It was a dig into both Israel and the God of Israel.

And, another reason to be cautious, the Lord made a unconditional covenant with Abraham, and reaffirmed it to both Isaac and Jacob, that He would bless those who bless the Hebrews and curse those who curse the Hebrews. and He said that would be the case as long as the sun rises, the moon is out at night, and the waves roar upon the seashore. If one isn't sure if modern Israel is legit, it might be wise to just keep their mouth shut just to be on the safe side.

If you want to poke your finger in they eye of God, that is your prerogative. Don't be surprised if there are consequences in doing so.

Incredible ignorance of end times! The scripture is clear there is a falling away before the end

Like 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Well, that verse is not quite translated correctly. Virtually every English translation prior to the 1611 KJV had it translated as "Departure" or "The Departure" as opposed to "Falling Away". Even the Latin Vulgate (4th century) uses "dicessio" in it's translation, which also means a physical departure. So the passage may actually be referencing the removal of the righteous as opposed to "falling away".

But there indeed will be some sort of departure from Biblical truth in the latter days. Isaac Newton seemed to have a real good take on that over 300 year ago.....

“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”
Sir Issac Newton 1642-1727

It is possible also that, in part, the "falling away" that commonly gets thrown around is a departure from the truth in scripture regarding Israel. The denial of the promises of YHVH regarding the Hebrews. So I would, again, be very cautious about throwing around "falling away" too quickly. It seems that Shakespeare was onto something in his work "Hamlet" when he stated something that we have changed the wording around a little to fit common parlance..... "Ye doth protest too much, me thinks". Those that rant and rave against modern Israel may well indeed be playing right into the hands of the enemies of YHVH.

We do know for certain the Lord was right when He stated that Jerusalem would be a problem in the latter days....

Zechariah 12:3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.
 
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Copperhead

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I suggest you go read the purity laws of the OT & the demands of Ezra on the returning Jews. The entire law must be fulfilled 100% or those that follow it are under a curse - Galatians

Using your take on these issues, then Yeshua is not the Messiah. That is essentially what you are claiming in that statement. Boaz's mother was Rahab... the woman who lived in Jericho who helped the recon team of Israel. Boaz was 1/2 Hebrew. Boaz married Ruth, the Moabitess. Their son was Obed. That made Obed 1/4 Hebrew. Obed was the grandfather of King David. The lineage of Yeshua included those who were only 1/4 Hebrew.

We are not talking about details or purity regarding the requirements of the Torah. If that were true, then none are worthy.... NONE, both Hebrew and Gentile. I am countering this nonsense regarding there are non DNA legitimate Hebrew people around today as an argument that modern Israel is invalid. One does not have to be even 50% Hebrew to be still be considered a true, physical Hebrew in the eyes of the Lord.

Thessalonians clearly states Christ will return to magnified within the body of Christ.

The problem with these carnal interpretations is they conveniently pick and chose which scriptures were relevant to Israel and which are not.

Let's look at that.....

Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah. (sounds like the totality of Jacob/Israel to me)
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense. (refer to Matthew 23:39)
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” (refer to Jeremiah 30:7)
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Verse 14 shows that the entirety of Jacob (Israel) is referenced. Both Israel and Judah. Their rejection of Him would cause Him to return to His place until they acknowledge their offense. Yeshua reaffirmed this in Matthew 23:39. He will not return until they acknowledge Yeshua as the Messiah, and when that happens is in their national affliction which Jeremiah refers to as the "time of Jacob's trouble" which is the last days time frame.

Yeah, that really sounds like a carnal interpretation of that passage. Sarcasm intended.
 
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Copperhead

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Israel is the conduit for the antichrist world govt nothing less. The Jews will persecute Christians just as cruelly did in the Russian revolution Armenia and every other they have gained power.

You need to see a doctor. You need professional help.
 
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berachah

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I would be extremely cautious if I were you. "Palestine" is not the name of the territory. Never has been. It was the name, in Latin, that the Romans gave to the land. It is from "Philistine" the name of the long term enemies of Israel in the Bible. It was a dig into both Israel and the God of Israel.

And, another reason to be cautious, the Lord made a unconditional covenant with Abraham, and reaffirmed it to both Isaac and Jacob, that He would bless those who bless the Hebrews and curse those who curse the Hebrews. and He said that would be the case as long as the sun rises, the moon is out at night, and the waves roar upon the seashore. If one isn't sure if modern Israel is legit, it might be wise to just keep their mouth shut just to be on the safe side.

The devil always come with threats and violence. You would make a great Israeli. God also said the Jews would have the land forever and guess what ? He kicked them out for their rebellion, the stiff necks and their murder of His Son Jesus Christ. To this day they teach Jesus Christ is tormented in hell, boiling in sperm and faeces. And God is going to favour them over His Son, His Body? You are the offence to God. You would do well to study Romans 4 to deliver yourself from the Antichrist mindset. Until you comprehend basic doctrine I suggest you SHUT YOUR MOUTH. What arrogance!

If you want to poke your finger in they eye of God, that is your prerogative. Don't be surprised if there are consequences in doing so.

How about you go and study the moral, spiritual and social decline in the US and these west since they started supporting these murderous brood of vipers in the Middle East. There are the facts about blessing and favour for all to see, if you are not totally blinded by your false doctrine

Like 2 Thessalonians 2:3? Well, that verse is not quite translated correctly. Virtually every English translation prior to the 1611 KJV had it translated as "Departure" or "The Departure" as opposed to "Falling Away". Even the Latin Vulgate (4th century) uses "dicessio" in it's translation, which also means a physical departure. So the passage may actually be referencing the removal of the righteous as opposed to "falling away".

If you anything about end time prophecy, ANYTHING, you would know the new is revealed in the Old. What happened to the Jews, is going to happen to the Body of Christ. I will never cast one more pearl before you on this particular subject, because your thinking is corrupted beyond understanding. Go study the OT and see what is ahead for the Body of Christ.

But there indeed will be some sort of departure from Biblical truth in the latter days. Isaac Newton seemed to have a real good take on that over 300 year ago.....

“About the time of the end, a body of men will be raised up who will turn their attention to the Prophecies, and insist upon their literal interpretation, in the midst of much clamor and opposition.”
Sir Issac Newton 1642-1727


And you are not literally applying end time, spiritual events, to a natural, godless entity in Palestine? One that is routinely killing children, dispossessing families of their homes, treating them like animals. How much evil are you willing to tolerate to support this brood of vipers?? God is not a respecter of persons, that is very clear. Perhaps you have forgotten many of those murdered and dispossessed were and are Christians.

It is possible also that, in part, the "falling away" that commonly gets thrown around is a departure from the truth in scripture regarding Israel. The denial of the promises of YHVH regarding the Hebrews. So I would, again, be very cautious about throwing around "falling away" too quickly. It seems that Shakespeare was onto something in his work "Hamlet" when he stated something that we have changed the wording around a little to fit common parlance..... "Ye doth protest too much, me thinks". Those that rant and rave against modern Israel may well indeed be playing right into the hands of the enemies of YHVH.

Your ongoing threats & accusations follow a pattern that has been around many years... the same kind of people, spoke the same way to Nehemiah. I reject your threats, in Jesus name.

We do know for certain the Lord was right when He stated that Jerusalem would be a problem in the latter days....

Zechariah 12:3 And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem a very heavy stone for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces, though all nations of the earth are gathered against it.

Clueless, totally void of any understanding. vs 12:2 talks about Judah, which does not exist anymore, nor ever will, and 12:4 "I will smite every horse with astonishment". By your theory there are going to be horses coming against Jerusalem. This is the foolishness of the natural interpretation trying to bend and squirm to justify this Zionist plague against humanity and Christ?? Those scriptures were fulfilled and recorded in the times of Jesus (note 12:10) and they will be fulfilled again spiritually against the body of Christ (the new Jerusalem) at the end of this dispensation.

It is the same with every teaching that tries to justify the ungodly group of murderers in Palestine. Incidentally, the people persecuted most after the Palestinians are the Tanakh believing Jews. There are
millions of them that reject the state of Israel, calling it an evil deception.
 
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berachah

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Using your take on these issues, then Yeshua is not the Messiah. That is essentially what you are claiming in that statement. Boaz's mother was Rahab... the woman who lived in Jericho who helped the recon team of Israel. Boaz was 1/2 Hebrew. Boaz married Ruth, the Moabitess. Their son was Obed. That made Obed 1/4 Hebrew. Obed was the grandfather of King David. The lineage of Yeshua included those who were only 1/4 Hebrew.

We are not talking about details or purity regarding the requirements of the Torah. If that were true, then none are worthy.... NONE, both Hebrew and Gentile. I am countering this nonsense regarding there are non DNA legitimate Hebrew people around today as an argument that modern Israel is invalid. One does not have to be even 50% Hebrew to be still be considered a true, physical Hebrew in the eyes of the Lord.



Let's look at that.....

Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah. (sounds like the totality of Jacob/Israel to me)
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue.
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense. (refer to Matthew 23:39)
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me.” (refer to Jeremiah 30:7)
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

Verse 14 shows that the entirety of Jacob (Israel) is referenced. Both Israel and Judah. Their rejection of Him would cause Him to return to His place until they acknowledge their offense. Yeshua reaffirmed this in Matthew 23:39. He will not return until they acknowledge Yeshua as the Messiah, and when that happens is in their national affliction which Jeremiah refers to as the "time of Jacob's trouble" which is the last days time frame.

Yeah, that really sounds like a carnal interpretation of that passage. Sarcasm intended.

The only purpose, THE ONLY PURPOSE, of the promised land was for the presence of the temple for God to come dwell amongst his people. Jesus fulfilled the old. Through Christ the presence (the infilling of the Holy Spirit) has come upon the the Body of Christ (the new Jerusalem). Any attempt to revive and support the Old, is in direct contradiction of all that Christ did and fulfilled and ushered in. You want to support that which many faithful Jews rejected (to follow Christ), then do and receive the judgements you so freely hand out to those that reject it. Because they are cursed, through scripture, by the words of the prophets by the words of Christ and of Paul and by their own words on the day they crucified Jesus.

Anything else you suppose or think is irrelevant.
 
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berachah

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Well, use of the same Greek word does not mean the same time frame, just like use of the same Hebrew word doesn't mean the same time frame.

The big problem with tying Revelation in with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is that the book was written after 70AD. I know that some, like Hank Hanegraff and others have tried to date it earlier, but a major debate was held between Hanegraff and Mark Hitchcock where it was shown beyond a reasonable doubt (Hitchcock is a lawyer) that Revelation has a later date of authorship. And it is quite a stretch to make the case that Revelation is a history book as opposed to a prophetic book.

John was speaking of spiritual things, of things against the Body of Christ. The natural Jews are currently separated from God, corrupted and going to hell. The devil is now only interested in destroying that which is Christ's, that is the Body of Christ. While you look to the Antichrist copy in Palestine, the whole purpose of which is to redo the work of Christ through the fake Messiah, spiritual warfare will be bringing the church into bondage. This doctrine is so carnal and downright ignorant.
 
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Copperhead

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Without the context saying that John is speaking of spiritual things, one cannot legitimately make that claim.

Still, Yeshua is not going to return until physical, literal, both houses of Jacob acknowledge their corporate, national rejection of Him, and turn to Him and petition for His return. The Church, anything spiritual, or the man in the moon has nothing to do with it. And that has not happened yet, so the purposes of the GT period as outlined in throughout scripture have not materialized yet. Therefore, the Preterist model falls flat on its face.

And it is because Yeshua clearly stated that He would not return until Jacob (Israel) acknowledge their offense of rejection and petition for His return to rescue them in their "time of Jacob's trouble" (Jeremiah) that Satan has been working overtime to nullify any Hebrew presence on the earth, so that prophecy cannot be fulfilled.

The Church is indeed a target of Satan, no doubt. That was a given all along and scripture also has a lot to say about most of the the "Church" becoming ineffectual in the latter days because of that. But it still has nothing to do with Yeshua's returning or not returning to the earth. Yeshua stated it quite clearly in Hosea and in Matthew, so there is still a calling and purpose for the literal Hebrew people. One can dismiss it all they want, use red herrings like DNA or some lost tribes nonsense. But all that is doing, is calling Yeshua a liar.

Hosea 5:14 - 6:2 For I will be like a lion to Ephraim,
And like a young lion to the house of Judah. (both houses of Jacob)
I, even I, will tear them and go away;
I will take them away, and no one shall rescue. (the diaspora)
15 I will return again to My place
Till they acknowledge their offense
.
Then they will seek My face;
In their affliction they will earnestly seek Me. (time of Jacob's trouble per Jeremiah)
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord; For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us; (2000 years using Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8)
On the third day He will raise us up, (the Millennial Kingdom)
That we may live in His sight.

Matthew 23:37-39 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!
 
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parousia70

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The big problem with tying Revelation in with the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD is that the book was written after 70AD. I know that some, like Hank Hanegraff and others have tried to date it earlier, but a major debate was held between Hanegraff and Mark Hitchcock where it was shown beyond a reasonable doubt (Hitchcock is a lawyer) that Revelation has a later date of authorship. And it is quite a stretch to make the case that Revelation is a history book as opposed to a prophetic book.


Ughh...

All late date testimony rests squarely on the shoulders of one solitary statement by Irenaeus, and it is disputed as to what it even says (was John seen? --or-- was the Revelation seen? -- who knows what Irenaeus said). Even Eusebius rejects Irenaeus testimony and prefers that a different John (John the Presbyter) wrote the book, not the apostle, as Irenaeus believes. This is important, and for certain, the late date folks that came after were merely basing their opinions on Irenaeus! Scholars agree that Irenaeus' statement is questionable at best, and it contradicts other things Irenaeus said about "ancient copies" of the book of Revelation (Eusebius: Ecc History: 5:8:5-6; see also Against Heresies 5:30:1,3). The notion of "ancient copies" of the book of Revelation cannot be reconciled with the proposition that Revelation was seen "almost in Irenaeus' generation" -- however it could be reconciled with the view that Irenaeus actually stated that JOHN was seen in Domitian's reign, not the vision. Then again, Irenaeus also claimed Jesus lived to be over 50 years old! "

...after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was of when He taught, as the Gospel and all the Elders witness, who in Asia conferred with John the Lord's disciple...."(Against Heresies 2:22:5)

So, we must not uncritically swallow Irenaeus historic testimony. Scholars admit that Irenaeus' quote concerning Revelation is all the evidence there is for a late date, and that his quote is inconclusive as to even what it means:

Daniel Denham (1979)
"The testimony of Irenaeus is considered the bastion of the evidence for the Late Date...The obscurity of the testimony, as it has come down to us, must be considered as weak and inconclusive to demand the Late Date." (Date of the Book Of Revelation"; H. Daniel Denham, Part 1, 1979)

Steve Gregg
"Since the text is admittedly "uncertain" in many places, and the quotation in question is known only from a Latin translation of the original, we must not place too high a degree of certainty upon our preferred reading of the statement of Irenaeus." (Revelation: Four Views, p. 18)

The quote from Irenaeus is considered to be weak and inconclusive, and it can even read that JOHN was seen in the reign of Domitian. (Robert Young even thinks NERO was intended, which would fully accord with Irenaeus statement about the "ancient copies" of the book of Revelation.)

There are also Arethas, the Muratorian Canon, Clement of Alexandria, & the Syriac Vulgate -- all these statements require an early date.

The Muratorian Canon of AD 170, for example, says that Paul, in writing to only seven churches, was following a rule set by John. For Paul to be following a rule set by John about writing to only seven churches, Paul had to know that John wrote to seven churches -- and this requires that Paul knew about Revelation 2-3 before his martyrdom.

And I haven't even touched the internal evidence of the book, which entirely demands that the vision speaks of a soon catastrophe of grave Jewish importance, which historically cannot fit any time but 66-70 AD. The book of Revelation is the prophecy of the catastrophy of the downfall of Israel and the avenging of the blood of the apostles and prophets.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Ughh
which historically cannot fit any time but 66-70 AD. The book of Revelation is the prophecy of the catastrophy of the downfall of Israel and the avenging of the blood of the apostles and prophets.
Matthew and Luke agrees with thee........
Luke goes together with Revelation like white on rice [I believe it is also the longest gospel of the 4?, along with being my favorite]


"DAYS OF VENGEANCE" Isaiah 61:2 and Luke 21:22 Revelation


Isaiah 61:2
To proclaim<7121> the year of the good pleasure<7522> of Yahweh,
And the day of vengeance <5359> of our 'Elohim, To comfort all mourners.
[Luke 4:16-21 Luke 13:30-34 Luke 18:7 Luke 21:22 Revelation 6:10 Revelation 19:2]


Luke 21:22
For these are the days of vengeance<1557>,
to fulfill<4130> all things having been written<1125>.
[Isaiah 61:2]

G1557 (KJV)
vindication, retribution:--(a-, re-)venge(-ance), punishment.
Strong's Number G1557 occurs 10 times in 9 verses
G1556 (KJV)
to vindicate, retaliate, punish:--a (re-)venge.
Strong's Number G1556 occurs 6 times in 6 verses

And this all ties Luke in with Revelation, IMHO

Luke 18:7
“And shall God not avenge<1557> His own elect/chosen
who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
[Revelation 6:10 Revelation 19:2]

Revelation 6:10
and they were crying-out with a great voice saying,
'how long! O Master/Owner,<1203>(despot) the Holy and the True, dost Thou not judge
and take vengeance/avenge<1556> of our blood from those dwelling upon the land?'


Matthew 23:
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 Behold! your house is left unto you desolate/a wilderness!<2048>
Luke 13:
34 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!
35 “See! Your house is left to you desolate/a wilderness!

Revelation 19:2
because true and just/righteous<1342> are His judgments,
because He did judge the great harlot who did corrupt the land in Her whoredom,
and He did avenge<1556> the blood of His bond-servants at Her Hand;


to be continued..........
 
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BABerean2

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He would bless those who bless the Hebrews and curse those who curse the Hebrews.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed

The promise above was made to Abram, instead of those who reject God's Son.

This fact is confirmed below by the Apostle Paul.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Who was the seed of Abraham through which "all" of the families of the earth would be blessed?
Is it those who reject Christ?

Dispensationalists have attempted to highjack Genesis 12:3, by replacing the name Abram with all of his descendants, even those who reject Christ.
1 John 2:22-23 reveals the error of this form of "Replacement Theology".

It is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race, instead of faith.

.
 
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Copperhead

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Ughh...

All late date testimony rests squarely on the shoulders of one solitary statement by Irenaeus, and it is disputed as to what it even says (was John seen? --or-- was the Revelation seen? -- who knows what Irenaeus said). Even Eusebius rejects Irenaeus testimony and prefers that a different John (John the Presbyter) wrote the book, not the apostle, as Irenaeus believes. This is important, and for certain, the late date folks that came after were merely basing their opinions on Irenaeus! Scholars agree that Irenaeus' statement is questionable at best, and it contradicts other things Irenaeus said about "ancient copies" of the book of Revelation (Eusebius: Ecc History: 5:8:5-6; see also Against Heresies 5:30:1,3). The notion of "ancient copies" of the book of Revelation cannot be reconciled with the proposition that Revelation was seen "almost in Irenaeus' generation" -- however it could be reconciled with the view that Irenaeus actually stated that JOHN was seen in Domitian's reign, not the vision. Then again, Irenaeus also claimed Jesus lived to be over 50 years old! "

...after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was of when He taught, as the Gospel and all the Elders witness, who in Asia conferred with John the Lord's disciple...."(Against Heresies 2:22:5)

So, we must not uncritically swallow Irenaeus historic testimony. Scholars admit that Irenaeus' quote concerning Revelation is all the evidence there is for a late date, and that his quote is inconclusive as to even what it means:

Daniel Denham (1979)
"The testimony of Irenaeus is considered the bastion of the evidence for the Late Date...The obscurity of the testimony, as it has come down to us, must be considered as weak and inconclusive to demand the Late Date." (Date of the Book Of Revelation"; H. Daniel Denham, Part 1, 1979)

Steve Gregg
"Since the text is admittedly "uncertain" in many places, and the quotation in question is known only from a Latin translation of the original, we must not place too high a degree of certainty upon our preferred reading of the statement of Irenaeus." (Revelation: Four Views, p. 18)

The quote from Irenaeus is considered to be weak and inconclusive, and it can even read that JOHN was seen in the reign of Domitian. (Robert Young even thinks NERO was intended, which would fully accord with Irenaeus statement about the "ancient copies" of the book of Revelation.)

There are also Arethas, the Muratorian Canon, Clement of Alexandria, & the Syriac Vulgate -- all these statements require an early date.

The Muratorian Canon of AD 170, for example, says that Paul, in writing to only seven churches, was following a rule set by John. For Paul to be following a rule set by John about writing to only seven churches, Paul had to know that John wrote to seven churches -- and this requires that Paul knew about Revelation 2-3 before his martyrdom.

And I haven't even touched the internal evidence of the book, which entirely demands that the vision speaks of a soon catastrophe of grave Jewish importance, which historically cannot fit any time but 66-70 AD. The book of Revelation is the prophecy of the catastrophy of the downfall of Israel and the avenging of the blood of the apostles and prophets.

You might want to watch a very good debate between Hank Hanegraff and Mark Hitchcock regarding this issue. A lot more than Irenaeus is discussed for support of a later date than 70AD for Revelation.

I will help you out...
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Copperhead said:
He would bless those who bless the Hebrews and curse those who curse the Hebrews.
Who was the seed of Abraham through which "all" of the families of the earth would be blessed?
Is it those who reject Christ?

Dispensationalists have attempted to highjack Genesis 12:3, by replacing the name Abram with all of his descendants, even those who reject Christ.
1 John 2:22-23 reveals the error of this form of "Replacement Theology".

It is a form of Dual Covenant Theology, based on race, instead of faith.

.
There was a very lengthy discussion on that over on the Dispensationalism board.
It is still open...............
:angel:

IT IS FINISHED!

National Israel is cursed forever !

National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)


Quote OP: [Just click "expand" to view the op post]
anthony55 said:
National Israel Is Cursed Forever
Mk 11:
11 And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.
12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
14 And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.
The nation of Israel at one time in world history was representive of Gods covenant people here on earth and had many spiritual advantages over and above all other nations of the world..

rom 3:
1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

The oracles of God, meaning in short, important spiritual matters of the True God..

rom 9:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

Much had been given to them as a nation in order to preserve her seperated from all other nations, in order for the messiah, to be born under Gods Law, to die the accursed for the seed of abraham..

Now Israels history as the special covenant people of God is riddled with unfaithfulness to God and apostacy, however, God tolerated her exisitnce up unto the promised seed was born, lived and died under the Law..

After the death of christ, of which national Israel was the chief culprit in bringing about, God Judged that nation as unworthy of eternal life:

acts 13:
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

This is here a final confirmation of God rejecting and leaving israel, the etnic jews under His Judgement..

This is confirmed too in matt 21:
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. 35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise. 37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
israel as a nation , ethnic wise, had lost her distinction and spiritual privileges of being that nation that represented the kingdom of God on earth, and that privilege was being granted to a nation, the gentile church, which would bear that precious spiritual fruit unto God..This is too expressed in rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

They have been cast away..and this casting away is final, as far as nationally is concerned, but not individually..but national Israel who, because of her favoured position, should have bore fruit, because of the outward advantages, which the fig tree indicated, but did not bear fruit, God cursed that nation, and that forever..

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

National Israel will never again have spiritual significance in this world, all those advantages are forever forfieted, but this was always part of Gods eternal plan and purpose for that people..

matt 21:42
Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
It was the Lords doings, and as the wise man says:

ecc 3: 14
I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

National Israel's rejection and curse is final..
 
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There was a very lengthy discussion on that over on the Dispensationalism board.
It is still open...............
:)

National Israel is cursed forever !

National Israel is cursed forever ! (2)


Quote OP: [Just click "expand" to view the op post]

Actually, that we or anyone else is debating this is pretty sad. It should have been a settled issue almost 2000 years ago.

I always fall back on Hosea 5:14 - 6:2. No matter how one slices it, Yeshua is claiming there that He will return to His place until they (verse 14.. both houses of Jacob) acknowledge their offense of rejecting Him. In verse 15, “till” they acknowldge that, He will not return.

So there has to be a literal Hebrew people and leadership to do that. It certainly has nothing to do with the Church since Yeshua returned to His place before the Church was conceived at Shavuot (Pentecost).

Besides, it would make no sense that the redeemed rejected Yeshua.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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And there it is, folks. Prophecy fulfilled! Jerusalem would be a stumbling stone to the world.

I will rest on Ezekiel (in conjunction with Leviticus) as well as Isaiah for the literal fulfillment of a regathered national Israel. Yes, initially in unbelief. And the requirement that a corporate, collective, national Israel leadership be in place at the end time to recognize their national leadership's rejection of Yeshua, turn to Him, and petition His return. Yeshua is quite clear in Hosea that until Israel (both Israel and Judah) does this, He will not return. He reaffirmed that in Matthew 23.

And if the Church is now Jacob (Israel), then it begs the question... when did the Church reject Yeshua before He returned to His place as stated in Hosea? Especially since the Church was not an entity until after Yeshua returned to His place. That same entity that rejected Yeshua, according to Hosea, must be the entity that realizes that offense, turns to Him, and petitions for His return.

And if there is no longer any real physical Hebrews left, then we might as well give up. Yeshua is never coming back. That there are no physical Hebrews left is absurd. Even Obed, of the Messianic lineage, was only 25% Hebrew. But he was still in the lineage of Yeshua. So there never has been a requirement that one be a majority Hebrew in their genetics to be considered a physical Hebrew. And there have been genetic markers and statistical studies established that show the Hebrew genetic lineage is not gone.

So one who claims to trust in Yeshua better hope there is a physical, national, corporate Jacob (Israel) complete with leadership in place to petition Yeshua's return, or they can forget the idea of Yeshua ever returning, if Yeshua told us the truth in Hosea. Amazing how a group that claims to know Yeshua and claims to look forward His return will go to great lengths to negate the conduit that facilitates that return. Could cause one to wonder if they follow another Yeshua (Jesus).
It has nothing to do with corporate, collective or national return. It is the Jewish faith accepting the truth of Christ as a religion. Totally void of any connection to this demonic state in Palestine.


Incredible ignorance of end times! The scripture is clear there is a falling away before the end

I suggest you go read the purity laws of the OT & the demands of Ezra on the returning Jews. The entire law must be fulfilled 100% or those that follow it are under a curse - Galatians

Thessalonians clearly states Christ will return to magnified within the body of Christ.

The problem with these carnal interpretations is they conveniently pick and chose which scriptures were relevant to Israel and which are not.

Israel is the conduit for the antichrist world govt nothing less. The Jews will persecute Christians just as cruelly did in the Russian revolution Armenia and every other they have gained power.

Of course they return to God, but it through Christ and has nothing to do with the old land, temple or covenant. End of story.
You might want to watch a very good debate between Hank Hanegraff and Mark Hitchcock regarding this issue. A lot more than Irenaeus is discussed for support of a later date than 70AD for Revelation.

I will help you out...
The whole doctrine of zionist dispensationalism relies on the dating of Revelation, instead of what it is symobolizing......the end of OC Judaism.......headquartered in Jerusalem in the land Judea.......
Paul was Jew from the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews emeshed in OC Judaism.
He told His followers to flee the OC religion of Judaism of the flesh.....Just as Jesus told His followers to flee out of 1st century Judea and Jerusalem.
[I recommend a good study on the covenantle parable of the Rich Man[House of Judah, the Jews] and Poor Man [House of Israel and Gentiles]


Galatians 1:
13 for ye did hear of my behaviour once in Judaism, that exceedingly I was persecuting the assembly of God, and wasting it,
14 and I was advancing in Judaism above many equals in age in mine own race, being more abundantly zealous of my fathers' deliverances,

Philippians 3:2
Beware of-the dogs, beware of-the evil workers, beware of-the circumcision! [Psalms 22:16]
3 For we-are the circumcision, ones to Spirit of God worship boasting in Christ Jesus, and not in flesh having confidence.

Psalms 22:16 For dogs have surrounded me, assembly of ones doing evil have encompass me as a lion, hands of me and feet of me.
2 Corinthians 6:17
wherefore come-forth out of midst of them! and be being separated! is saying Lord...........

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Those who insist that this is not a parable but a true, literal story Yeshua told to describe the condition of the lost in hell must overlook several facts to arrive at that conclusion. First, Yeshua the Messiah never accuses the rich man of any sin. He is simply portrayed as a wealthy man who lived the good life...............
LUKE 16:24
"Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
Matthew 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
19 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those, the days!
Mark 13:
14 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
17 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
Luke 21:
21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
22 That days of vengeance<1557> these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written<1125>, .
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath/ὀργὴ <3709> upon this people.

Matthew 23:37
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!
Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her!

Revelation 18:4
And I hear another voice out of the heaven saying "come forth! out of Her My people......................

Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia!
and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

And harmonizes perfectly with this:

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages....... [Luke 16:24,26]
OC House of Judah and Priesthood


.

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Actually you are incorrect.
The sooner Christians realize this dispensation is about spiritual powers and authorities, the sooner true revelation of events will become clear. Jerusalem in this age is not a natural place... just as God calling his people out of Babylon before judgement is not calling them from a natural city in the desert.
The Body of Christ (Jerusalem) will go into bondage just as it happened in the OT. That is a fact. Apply all the other prophecies for this time to the Body of Christ and you will be a lot closer to truth.

Natural Jerusalem has fulfilled its purpose just as the old sacrificial did and has passed away. There is nothing relevant about modern Israel except that it is a tool of deception and bondage for Christians by the Antichrist.

Just surprised so many Christians believe that God has sent a bunch of non believing , non repentant, Christian hating atheists, parading as Jews, to a land God has moved on from.
Good post and info.

For many months I spent time harmonizing the Temple/Jerusalem discourses in Matthew, Mark and Luke.

Harmonization of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, Revelation and Josephus

Then I began seeing more of Luke and Matthew in Revelation than Mark, so I started focusing more on Luke and am I glad I did!
Did you realize that there are some that view Luke's Temple/Jerusalem discourses as a different event than Matt and Mark's Temple discourses, which they view as still future!!!.
This utterly stunned me and vexed my Spirit when I saw this....sigh....

LUKE 21 MATTHEW 24 OLIVET DISCOURSE CONTROVERSY [Poll Thread]
Matthew 24 and Luke 21 Controversy

And here I posted this thread on "captivity and sword", and so far 9 votes.......yes 3 votes - no 4 votes - and 1 each of "I don't know" or "other".
Interesting poll results and shows the division that is prevalent among different Christian sects/denominations...........

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10 [Poll thread "Luke 21:24 and Revleation 13:10 showing 70ad destruction of Jerusalem? ]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Reve 11:2/13:10]

This concerns that Great City/Harlot/Babylon in Revelation........

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the saints


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
The Destruction of Jerusalem
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY:
"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."

(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves.
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,
or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

Deuteronomy 28:
15 If, however, you do not obey Yahweh thy Elohim by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today,
all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:
67
In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.
68
“And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'

And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”





.
 
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