Discussion moved from "End Times Fiction" thread

[Biblewriter]

I do not see the thread, so please post a link.

Here is the meat of the doctrine of Irenaeus concerning a future Antichrist and a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

“Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 2)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

In this series of statements, we notice that in the first of them Irenaeus clearly says that the Antichrist “shall remove his kingdom into” [“the earthly Jerusalem”] “and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” In the second he insists that “the temple which is at Jerusalem” is the place “in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ.” And then he quotes Daniel 9:27, “‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away.’” So in the last of these statements he very clearly refers to Daniel’s seventieth week as the week in which the Antichrist will come.

Thus we see in these statements of Irenaeus each of the following concepts:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism, and is incompatible with Covenant Theology.

Hippolytus, a student of Irenaeus, expanded upon this concept of a future fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 35.3)

Hippolytus returned to this subject some pages later, writing:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 50.2)

As a side note, we should note that the concept of calculating these weeks in accordance with Jewish years, rather than solar years, was also introduced at this time. Although Julius Africanus concluded that the seventy weeks were fulfilled, he clearly taught that they should be calculated “according to the numeration of the Jews,” saying:

“It is by calculating from Artaxerxes, therefore, up to the time of Christ that the seventy weeks are made up, according to the numeration of the Jews. For from Nehemiah, who was despatched by Artaxerxes to build Jerusalem in the 115th year of the Persian empire, and the 4th year of the 83d Olympiad, and the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes himself, up to ibis date, which was the second year of the 202d Olympiad, and the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are reckoned 475 years, which make 490 according to the Hebrew numeration, as they measure the years by the course of the moon; so that, as is easy to show, their year consists of 354 days, while the solar year has 365¼ days. For the latter exceeds the period of twelve months, according to the moon’s course, by 11¼ days. Hence the Greeks and the Jews insert three intercalary months every 8 years. For 8 times 11¼ days makes up 3 months. Therefore 475 years make 59 periods of 8 years each, and 3 months besides. But since thus there are 3 intercalary months every 8 years, we get thus 15 years minus a few days; and these being added to the 475 years, make up in all the 70 weeks.” (Fragment 16 of “The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus,” by Julius Africanus.)

 

[jgr]

Here is the meat of the doctrine of Irenaeus concerning a future Antichrist and a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

“Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 2)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

In this series of statements, we notice that in the first of them Irenaeus clearly says that the Antichrist “shall remove his kingdom into” [“the earthly Jerusalem”] “and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” In the second he insists that “the temple which is at Jerusalem” is the place “in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ.” And then he quotes Daniel 9:27, “‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away.’” So in the last of these statements he very clearly refers to Daniel’s seventieth week as the week in which the Antichrist will come.

Thus we see in these statements of Irenaeus each of the following concepts:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism, and is incompatible with Covenant Theology.

Hippolytus, a student of Irenaeus, expanded upon this concept of a future fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 35.3)

Hippolytus returned to this subject some pages later, writing:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 50.2)

As a side note, we should note that the concept of calculating these weeks in accordance with Jewish years, rather than solar years, was also introduced at this time. Although Julius Africanus concluded that the seventy weeks were fulfilled, he clearly taught that they should be calculated “according to the numeration of the Jews,” saying:

“It is by calculating from Artaxerxes, therefore, up to the time of Christ that the seventy weeks are made up, according to the numeration of the Jews. For from Nehemiah, who was despatched by Artaxerxes to build Jerusalem in the 115th year of the Persian empire, and the 4th year of the 83d Olympiad, and the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes himself, up to ibis date, which was the second year of the 202d Olympiad, and the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are reckoned 475 years, which make 490 according to the Hebrew numeration, as they measure the years by the course of the moon; so that, as is easy to show, their year consists of 354 days, while the solar year has 365¼ days. For the latter exceeds the period of twelve months, according to the moon’s course, by 11¼ days. Hence the Greeks and the Jews insert three intercalary months every 8 years. For 8 times 11¼ days makes up 3 months. Therefore 475 years make 59 periods of 8 years each, and 3 months besides. But since thus there are 3 intercalary months every 8 years, we get thus 15 years minus a few days; and these being added to the 475 years, make up in all the 70 weeks.” (Fragment 16 of “The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus,” by Julius Africanus.)

My request was for a link to your material on Lowth.

 

[jgr]

Here is the meat of the doctrine of Irenaeus concerning a future Antichrist and a future fulfillment of Daniel's seventieth week:

“The Lord also spoke as follows to those who did not believe in Him: ‘I have come in my Father’s name, and ye have not received Me: when another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive,’ calling Antichrist ‘the other,’ because he is alienated from the Lord. This is also the unjust judge, whom the Lord mentioned as one ‘who feared not God, neither regarded man,’ to whom the widow fled in her forgetfulness of God,—that is, the earthly Jerusalem,—to be avenged of her adversary. Which also he shall do in the time of his kingdom: he shall remove his kingdom into that [city], and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

“Moreover, he (the apostle) has also pointed out this which I have shown in many ways, that the temple in Jerusalem was made by the direction of the true God. For the apostle himself, speaking in his own person, distinctly called it the temple of God. Now I have shown in the third book, that no one is termed God by the apostles when speaking for themselves, except Him who truly is God, the Father of our Lord, by whose directions the temple which is at Jerusalem was constructed for those purposes which I have already mentioned; in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ, as the Lord also declares: ‘But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, which has been spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand), then let those who are in Judea flee into the mountains; and he who is upon the house-top, let him not come down to take anything out of his house: for there shall then be great hardship, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall be.’” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 2)

“And then he points out the time that his tyranny shall last, during which the saints shall be put to flight, they who offer a pure sacrifice unto God: ‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and the abomination of desolation [shall be brought] into the temple: even unto the consummation of the time shall the desolation be complete.’Now three years and six months constitute the half-week.” (Against Heresies, by Irenaeus, book V, chapter XXV, section 4)

In this series of statements, we notice that in the first of them Irenaeus clearly says that the Antichrist “shall remove his kingdom into” [“the earthly Jerusalem”] “and shall sit in the temple of God, leading astray those who worship him, as if he were Christ.” In the second he insists that “the temple which is at Jerusalem” is the place “in which [temple] the enemy shall sit, endeavouring to show himself as Christ.” And then he quotes Daniel 9:27, “‘And in the midst of the week,’ he says, ‘the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away.’” So in the last of these statements he very clearly refers to Daniel’s seventieth week as the week in which the Antichrist will come.

Thus we see in these statements of Irenaeus each of the following concepts:

1. That in the future there will again be a temple in Jerusalem.
2. That this future temple will be “the temple of God.”
3. That this future Jewish temple is where the Antichrist will sit as God.
4. And that Daniel’s seventieth week remains to be fulfilled in the future.

Each of these concepts is unquestionably an element of Dispensationalism, and is incompatible with Covenant Theology.

Hippolytus, a student of Irenaeus, expanded upon this concept of a future fulfillment of Daniel’s seventieth week, saying:

“For after sixty-two weeks was fulfilled and after Christ has come and the Gospel has been preached in every place, times having been spun out, the end remains one week away, in which Elijah and Enoch shall be present and in its half the abomination of desolation, the Antichrist, shall appear who threatens desolation of the world. After he comes, sacrifice and drink offering, which now in every way is offered by the nations to God, shall be taken away.” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 35.3)

Hippolytus returned to this subject some pages later, writing:

“Just as also he spoke to Daniel, “And he shall establish a covenant with many for one week and it will be that in the half of the week he shall take away my sacrifice and drink offering,” so that the one week may be shown as divided into two, after the two witnesses will have preached for three and a half years, the Antichrist will wage war against the saints the remainder of the week and will desolate all the world so that what was spoken may be fulfilled, “And they will give the abomination of desolation one thousand two hundred ninety days. Blessed is he who endures to Christ and reaches the one thousand three hundred thirty-five days!” (Commentary on Daniel, by Hippolytus, book 4, 50.2)

As a side note, we should note that the concept of calculating these weeks in accordance with Jewish years, rather than solar years, was also introduced at this time. Although Julius Africanus concluded that the seventy weeks were fulfilled, he clearly taught that they should be calculated “according to the numeration of the Jews,” saying:

“It is by calculating from Artaxerxes, therefore, up to the time of Christ that the seventy weeks are made up, according to the numeration of the Jews. For from Nehemiah, who was despatched by Artaxerxes to build Jerusalem in the 115th year of the Persian empire, and the 4th year of the 83d Olympiad, and the 20th year of the reign of Artaxerxes himself, up to ibis date, which was the second year of the 202d Olympiad, and the 16th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, there are reckoned 475 years, which make 490 according to the Hebrew numeration, as they measure the years by the course of the moon; so that, as is easy to show, their year consists of 354 days, while the solar year has 365¼ days. For the latter exceeds the period of twelve months, according to the moon’s course, by 11¼ days. Hence the Greeks and the Jews insert three intercalary months every 8 years. For 8 times 11¼ days makes up 3 months. Therefore 475 years make 59 periods of 8 years each, and 3 months besides. But since thus there are 3 intercalary months every 8 years, we get thus 15 years minus a few days; and these being added to the 475 years, make up in all the 70 weeks.” (Fragment 16 of “The Extant Fragments of the Five Books of the Chronography of Julius Africanus,” by Julius Africanus.)

Irenaeus' 70 weeks bear little resemblance to futurism's today, for:
He believed that they were a single contiguous interval i.e. no decapitated 70th week.
He believed that they would end with the Second Coming about 500 years hence from the time he wrote.

Obviously, his predictions came and went uneventfully.

The papacy did not yet exist when he wrote.

There can be little doubt that Irenaeus' understanding of antichrist and the temple would have been clarified to lead him to join the ranks of the Reformers, had he survived that long.

The primary tenets of early futurism dissolved and disappeared in the Reformation.

 

[Dave L]

No direct quote is necessary when direct information is given in the bible. Revelation was given long after some theoretical ending of the 70 weeks. Revelation contains direct information that the 70 weeks are not yet fulfilled. Which that is direct information that there is a gap between the messiah being cutoff - and the prince who shall come to confirm the covenant for 7 years, which Revelation is structured on that 7 years forthcoming.

When John saw what was in the book, he saw the seven years, in segments.
Each segment covered events to take place in either the full seven years or the second half of the seven years.

Chapter 6 the entire 7 years
Chapter 7 second half of the seven years
Chapter 8, 9 the trumpets, second half of the seven years
Chapter 10 the little book, the mystery of God no further delay, the second half
Chapter 11 the entire 7 years
Chapter 12 the entire 7 years, relevant to Israel
Chapter 13 the second half , relevant to the evil of the beast
Chapter 14 the second half, reward of the 144,000 and judgment on the wicked
Chapter 15 the second half, the vials
Chapter 16 the second half, the vials, conclusion of the great tribulation
Chapter 17 the second half, judgment
Chapter 18 the second half, judgment
Chapter 19 the second half, Jesus's Return

No direct quotes = fanciful interpretations for every crackpot on the loose.

 

[Dave L]

The 70 weeks are determined on Daniel's people Israel, and Jerusalem. Not on Jesus.

The Antichrist has not come to power yet to fulfill anything.

Jesus would not have given John Revelation in 60 something AD (some claim 90 AD) which contains much prophecy regarding Daniel 's people and Jerusalem... way beyond a 7years theoretical no-gap continuation ending in around 37- 40 AD - if there was not a gap.

70 contiguous weeks identifies Jesus as the prince. Antichrist was a no show. No scripture directly revealing a gap = false prophecy to say there is one.

 

[Dave L]

4 Scriptures. Please tell us your interpretation of them.
Also the fact, there has been nearly 2000 years pass since the end of the 69 week, is undeniable proof of a 2 'day' gap to God, but 2000 years to us.

We are not looking for crackpot interpretations. Without direct quotes saying there is a gap, that's all you have.

 

[Douggg]

70 contiguous weeks identifies Jesus as the prince. Antichrist was a no show. No scripture directly revealing a gap = false prophecy to say there is one.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Jesus was shown to be Messiah the Prince when at the end of the 69 weeks was cutoff but not for Himself. Revelation given directly by Jesus Himself confirms that there is a gap between the end of the 69th week and the confirming of the covenant by the Antichrist to begin the 7 year 70th week.

 

[Dave L]

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


Jesus was shown to be Messiah thee Prince when at the end of the 69 weeks was cutoff but not for Himself. Revelation given directly by Jesus Himself confirms that there is a gap between the end of the 69th week and the confirming of the covenant by the Antichrist to begin the 7 year 70th week.

Direct quotes, not interpretations please.

 

[Douggg]

Direct quotes, not interpretations please.

Direct quotes? You are not furnishing a direct quote. Jesus's name is not mentioned in Daniel 9.

Daniel 9 was prophecy given to Daniel by Gabriel. Revelation was given by Jesus Himself and is the Final Word. The 7 year 70th week is all through it.

Please furnish a direct quote from Jesus Himself that there is no gap between the 69th week and 70th week.

 

[Dave L]

Direct quotes? You are not furnishing a direct quote. Jesus's name is not mentioned in Daniel 9.

Daniel 9 was prophecy given to Daniel by Gabriel. Revelation was given by Jesus Himself and is the Final Word. The 7 year 70th week is all through it.

Please furnish a direct quote from Jesus Himself that there is no gap between the 69th week and 70th week.

No direct scripture for a gap = false prophecy. Jesus proved the gap false by fulfilling the 70 contiguous weeks as foretold.

 

[Biblewriter]

Irenaeus' 70 weeks bear little resemblance to futurism's today, for:
He believed that they were a single contiguous interval i.e. no decapitated 70th week.
He believed that they would end with the Second Coming about 500 years hence from the time he wrote.

Obviously, his predictions came and went uneventfully.

The papacy did not yet exist when he wrote.

There can be little doubt that Irenaeus' understanding of antichrist and the temple would have been clarified to lead him to join the ranks of the Reformers, had he survived that long.

The primary tenets of early futurism dissolved and disappeared in the Reformation.

This is 100% pure speculation, based entirely on your highly prejudiced opinion.

 

[Biblewriter]

My request was for a link to your material on Lowth.

I am in transit at this time. I will try to comply tomorrow.

 

[Jipsah]

The worship described in Ezekiel is significantly different from that described in the law of Moses. So no - it is not a return to temple Judaism.

Really? What are some of those significant differences? I know that the slaughter of livestock for sins still remains, which in itself sets at naught our Lord’s sacrifice.

 

[claninja]

Maybe I'm simply misunderstanding you somewhere, but in the event I'm not, I'm puzzled as to why you would be using a translation that appears to be defeating your argument? Your translation says----and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. How do you equate the end of time with that of "the desolations of the Jerusalem and the temple that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet discourse"?

Even though "end of time" and "end of the age" are different Greek phrases, Jesus associates the abomination of desolation with the end of the age and the destruction of the city and sanctuary. Therefore, since Jesus associated these phrases as the same I would also associate the "end of time" as being the "end of the age".

Additionally the Greek word for time doesn't necessarily denote time as a whole, it can mean:
Definition: time, season
Usage: fitting season, season, opportunity, occasion, time.

What about this though? Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression

I have already brought this argument up several times in the past, so I'm likely sounding like a broken record here, but why would what I have underlined above be fulfilled, then some 40 years later, this same holy city that the transgression is supposed to be finished for, it gets destroyed at that time? It doesn't compute to me that it would occur in that order.

Here is an instance where it is very important to know the types and shadows of the OT. You appear to be asking: how could the transgression be finished with Christ (~30 AD) then some 40 years later, the city destroyed (~70AD)?

When Israel rejected God's rest (promise land), he did not destroy them right away, instead he led them into the wilderness for 40 years to humble them and test them. At the end of the 40 years, the whole generation that had done evil was dead. But those who remained faithful and children of the evil generation who turned to God entered the promise land.
Deuteronomy 8:2 Remember that these forty years the LORD your God led you all the way in the wilderness, so that He might humble you and test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep His commandments.
Hebrews 3:16-19 For who were the ones who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? And with whom was God angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? And to whom did He swear that they would never enter His rest? Was it not to those who disobeyed? So we see that it was because of their unbelief that they were unable to enter.
Numbers 32:13 The LORD’s anger burned against Israel, and He made them wander in the wilderness forty years, until the whole generation who had done evil in His sight was gone.

This OT 'type' perfectly reflects the NT, and Hebrews 3-4 mentions this OT shadow. Israel had rejected Jesus (the true Sabbath rest), and yet God did not destroy Israel that same day. Instead he gave them a period of 40 years (from ~30 AD to ~70AD):
Hebrews 4:8-11 Now if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. For whoever enters God’s rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His. Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following the same pattern of disobedience.

Jesus clearly mentions this: because they rejected Christ, they would be destroyed. And this was fulfilled about 40 years after Christ was cut off.
Luke 19:44 They will level you to the ground—you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation from God.”

During the 1st 3.5 years after Christ died, the gospel went specifically to Jews and Jerusalem
Acts 6:7 So the word of God continued to spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem grew rapidly, and a great number of priests became obedient to the faith.

After these 3.5 years, the gospel went OUTSIDE the Jews (holy people) and Jersualem (the holy city)
Acts 8:1 On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria.

Jesus, who is the true Israel, who fulfilled all the law and prophets, was anointed to preach the good news, put an end to sin, restrained the transgressions against God, atoned for the sins of his people, and brought in everlasting righteousness for those who believe by his ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Holy spirit.

This is the good news for those who come humbly before God in faith and repentance. This is what was preached throughout Jesus' ministry, throughout the book of Acts, and throughout the epistles.

I don't disagree with your point as proven by those passages you submitted, yet I don't feel your point here applies to Daniel 9:27 as well. This is why some of us can't seem to get on the same page about Daniel 9:27. Some of you won't even acknowledge that everything in verse 27 is fulfilled during the 70th week. I realize, that in your minds, you all think your arguments prove why not everything in verse 27 are fulfilled during the 70th week, yet in my mind, I don't feel they do.

For one to believe there is a 2000 + gap in between the 69th and 70th week, that person must also believe that NONE of 6 points of Daniel have been fulfilled yet. However, this results in 3 main contradictions:

1.) There is ample NT scripture stating the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming. To solve this, the gap theorist must say that Jesus has not yet atoned for sin, or that Jesus has not yet put away sin, etc......

2.) If even 1 of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 is fulfilled with Christ being cut off IN THE GAP (AFTER the 7+62 weeks, but BEFORE the 70th week), Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement. To solve this the gap theorist must say that Jesus' death did not fulfill any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24, which leads back to contradiction #1.

3.) Inserting 2000+ years in-between the 69th and 70th week, turns the prophecy into 2000+ years instead of 490 years. To solve this, the gap theorist must state that ALL of the events of Daniel 9:24-27 occur within the 70 weeks. If anyone of the 6 points or events occur within the gap, Daniel 9:24-27 becomes false.

These are logical contradictions, which so far have gone unanswered by futurists. If a futurist could even provide one TIME FRAMED prophecy with a gap to substantiate the claim of a gap WITHIN the 70 weeks, that would help their side.

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For the one that believes the 70 weeks was fulfilled with Christ's ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending Holy spirit to Jerusalem, the main contradictions seem to be:

1.) from Christ's ministry to Jerusalem's destruction was 43.5 years not 7 years. To solve this, the preterist (partial and full) looks to the NT, which clearly states that all 6 points of Daniel 9:24 were fulfilled with Christ, which, as stated by Gabriel took place within 490 years (70 sevens). Thus, the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple were not required for the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 and are thus outside of the 70 weeks. Since most OT prophecy is ambiguous and gaps can be inserted when no time frame is given, inserting 40 years outside of the 70 weeks is not breaking with interpretation.

2.) What happens after 69.5 weeks? If the destruction of Jerusalem didn't happen within the last half of the final week, what did? A.) Culturally, Hebrews and ancient Near east cultures were "cup half full", thus 69.5 would be 70. B.) But also, Revelation 12 tells us exactly what happens for 1260 days (3.5 years) after Christ, death resurrection and ascension: Israel (jews in Jerusalem) was nourished and escaped the persecution of the dragon.

 

[Lost4words]

I believe Jesus was pointing to 70AD when the Jews would be punished. It came about. It 'was' the end of the world to those in that time in Jerusalem.

 

[jgr]

This is 100% pure speculation, based entirely on your highly prejudiced opinion.

Sure. But it's an entirely reasonable speculation. Having seen his own speculation about antichrist fail, Irenaeus would certainly have been receptive to the Reformation understanding.

He'd have made a good Reformer.

What is your speculation and rationale?

 

[keras]

We are not looking for crackpot interpretations. Without direct quotes saying there is a gap, that's all you have.

This sort of demand is unpleasant and confrontational.
You don't know it all and you're not a prophet.

Three facts prove the future fulfilment of the 70th week;
1/ the 'weeks' were divided into 7-62-1
2/ There has been no accurately completed 7 year period after, or around Jesus' Advent.
3/ Daniel 9:27 says that 7 years will be divided in half. There are several time periods in Revelation that tell of those. Also in Daniel 12. For the last days.

Of course there is the fact of the nearly 2000 year gap that has happened as prophesied; Hosea 6:2, Luke 13:32
I view your rabid denials as fright, you are afraid to face the truths of what is prophesied for our future.

 

[Dave L]

This sort of demand is unpleasant and confrontational.
You don't know it all and you're not a prophet.

Three facts prove the future fulfilment of the 70th week;
1/ the 'weeks' were divided into 7-62-1
2/ There has been no accurately completed 7 year period after, or around Jesus' Advent.
3/ Daniel 9:27 says that 7 years will be divided in half. There are several time periods in Revelation that tell of those. Also in Daniel 12. For the last days.

Of course there is the fact of the nearly 2000 year gap that has happened as prophesied; Hosea 6:2, Luke 13:32
I view your rabid denials as fright, you are afraid to face the truths of what is prophesied for our future.

But, who showed up in the 70th contiguous week? Antichrist or Jesus. Since Jesus showed up, it proves the gap is a false doctrine. And any future prophecy based on it false prophecy.

 

[jgr]

My request was for a link to your material on Lowth.

I am in transit at this time. I will try to comply tomorrow.

OK.

In the meantime, I've located William Lowth's commentary on Daniel, and reviewed Daniel 9:24-27.

As expected, it is fully consistent with the consensus of the overwhelming majority of the historical true Church for eighteen centuries.

There is no hint of antichrist.
There is no hint of a decapitated 70th week.
There is no hint of unfulfillment.
There is no hint of modernist futurism.

We may conclude regarding Daniel 9:24-27 that Lowth was a worthy proponent of scriptural revelation, historical orthdoxy, accurate exegesis, and sound doctrine.

 

[Douggg]

But, who showed up in the 70th contiguous week? Antichrist or Jesus. Since Jesus showed up, it proves the gap is a false doctrine. And any future prophecy based on it false prophecy.

The 70th week is 7 years long. When are you saying Jesus showed up? For how long?

When the Antichrist person confirms the covenant - he is going to be the number one person in the world that everyone will notice over the course of the 7 years.