Prewrath?

Douggg

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The context is from the start "of these wonders" to the end "of these wonders" would be 3 1/2 years. (Confirmed by John 3 different ways.)
You would be more correct to say "a time times half times" because that is the amount of time Satan will have left when Michael and his angels cast him down to earth in Revelation 12.

In Daniel 12:1 - Michael stands up for Daniel's people.
In Revelation 12:7-9 - Michael goes to war on Satan.

The result is a time times half time in both Daniel 12:7 and Revelation 12:14.
 
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You talk a good talk, but what about your walk?
You are STILL reading that with a "TO" when it says "and." It is NOT a from / to statement as you are reading it. And you are not keeping with the context.

The context is from the start "of these wonders" to the end "of these wonders" would be 3 1/2 years. (Confirmed by John 3 different ways.)

Daniel is not satisfied. Perhaps because he is not sure of the beginning of "these wonders." The chapter started with days of GT worse than any other time ever. That must be included in "these wonders." Then when the power of his people is completely shattered must be included so. But does Daniel have an exact start and finish? He has only 3 1/2 years but from when to when? From the shattering of his people? From the "time of trouble" worse than anything else?

Daniel still does not know the beginning or the final outcome.

Then the angel says:
"and from" and know Daniel knows he is getting a starting point:

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up....

Now Daniel has two things to identify the start of the wonders: They will begin when the Daily sacrifices are taken away (something He had already written about) AND when the abomination is set up....so now Daniel knows that when the sacrifices are taken away, an abomination is set up. But Daniel still does not know the outcome! The angel gives him one more piece of information:

From this starting point - there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
and:
12 Blessed is he that (from that same starting point) waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

I'll respond with:


And from the time that the Super Bowl begins, and the half time festivities set up, there shall be 30 minutes of game time.

So does that statement mean the the Super Bowl begins at the same time that half time festivities are set up?
 
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Douggg

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And yes, Jesus does come and end the great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.
The seals are not triggers. Both you and lamad are doing the same thing - acting as if the seals are triggers to something.

The seals were locks on the book. The entire book was opened back when John received Revelation. Nothing has to be "opened".

Instead start writing when the events of the 7th seal take place. But that will throw your entire schedule of events off - because the 7th seal all it did functionally, when it was broken open, is reveal the visions that John received of what will take place during the 7 years.
 
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You just placed the 6th seal to AFTER the entire week has finished! "the week" is what is written INSIDE the book. The seals have to be opened before the book can be opened.

I have already showed you before that this statement is poppycock and something that you made up.
Here lets check the scripture again so you can see that the book is opened BEFORE the seals are loosed


Rev 5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
 
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Forgiven
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The seals are not triggers. Both you and lamad are doing the same thing - acting as if the seals are triggers to something.

The seals were locks on the book. The entire book was opened back when John received Revelation. Nothing has to be "opened".

Instead start writing when the events of the 7th seal take place. But that will throw your entire schedule of events off - because the 7th seal all it did functionally, when it was broken open, is reveal the visions that John received of what will take place during the 7 years.

Well here, I guess this can work for you too.
Rev 5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
 
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Douggg

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I'll respond with:

And from the time that the Super Bowl begins, and the half time festivities set up, there shall be 30 minutes of game time.

So does that statement mean the the Super Bowl begins at the same time that half time festivities are set up?
That's an unnecessay analogy. CW, we understand your interpretation of Daniel 12:11. That's not the problem.

What we are saying you are interpreting it incorrectly - when considering other events that have to fit in with it.

Show on the 7 year timeline - how your interpretation would fit. In similitude to mine, as follows...

day 1..............day 1185 AoD setup..........................day 2475 sixth seal event.......
day 2520 Jesus returns.

Everything fits within the 7 years.
 
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Douggg

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Well here, I guess this can work for you too.
Rev 5
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Yes the seals on the book were broke open back then when John received Revelation.
 
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That's a poor analogy. CW, we understand your interpretation of Daniel 12:11. That's not the problem.
The analogy was perfect. I was not only showing you how I read it, but I was showing you the only reasonable way it can be read.........given the circumstances.

What we are saying you are interpreting it incorrectly - when considering other events that have to fit in with it.
Let me repost what I wrote earlier.
But instead of reading exactly what God says and apply it as fact, we reason...........it can't mean that because............. And I can certainly come up with several reasons why it can't mean that. But those reasons are wrong. For us to really understand revelation, we have to go by exactly what God says. And then we have to figure out why the reasons that we think it can't mean what it says are wrong.

So there you are.........doing exactly what I said we do. Given the events as you perceive them, you won't take EXACTLY what God says because you can't figure out how to make EXACTLY what God says work. So you change what God says to fit the events as you see them. Why not take exactly what God says and figure out why the events as you perceive them are wrong. And this is exactly why no one can figure out Revelation and the rapture scenario.


Show on the 7 year timeline - how your interpretation would fit. In similitude to mine, as follows...

day 1..............day 1185 AoD setup..........................day 2475 sixth seal event.......
day 2520 Jesus returns.

Everything fits within the 7 years. [/QUOTE]

Day 1..............day 1185 The daily sacrifice is taken away..........day 2475 the AofD setup
day 2520 Jesus returns to gather his elect from heaven and earth at the pre wrath rapture.

Everything that is supposed to fit in 7 years fits within 7 years. Then comes the wrath of God which starts the Day of the Lord.
 
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mark kennedy

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What's the difference between distress, tribulation and wrath?

Zephaniah 1:15
15 That day is a day of wrath<5678>, A day of tribulation/distress<6869> and constraint<4691>,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,


Daniel 12:1
“At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of tribulation/distress<6869, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.
And at that time your people shall escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized

Matthew 24:21
for then shall be great tribulation<2347> , such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming
Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


Luke 21 mentions both "great distress" and "wrath" but not "great tribulation".
Both distress and tribulation appear to be similar in meaning?


Wrath #3709 is only used in 5 verses of the Gospels, the verse in Matthew is used against the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.


Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath <3709>upon this people.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<3709>?


Revelation 11:18 uses the same exact form of the word #3709 as in Luke 21:23.

Revelation 11:18
[Matthew 3:7 Luke 21:23]
The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
Tribulation g2347 'thilipsis', is most often used in the New Testament to speak of persecution. In Revelations and other places it speaks of wrath. The connection appears to be the wrath that follows the persecution of the tribulation saints like the martyrs under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal.
 
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Douggg

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Day 1..............day 1185 The daily sacrifice is taken away..........day 2475 the AofD setup
day 2520 Jesus returns to gather his elect from heaven and earth at the pre wrath rapture.
On that timeline of events, of the AoD setup on day 2475, the great tribulation would last only the last 75 days of the 7 years.

What takes place on earth between day 1185 and day 2475?
 
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Douggg

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So you change what God says to fit the events as you see them. Why not take exactly what God says and figure out why the events as you perceive them are wrong. And this is exactly why no one can figure out Revelation and the rapture scenario.
I am not changing what is written in Daniel 12:11. Daniel 12:11 indicates there will be 1290 days - but it doesn't say in Daniel 12 1290 days till what. Its also says blessed are those who wait to the 1335th day - but it doesn't say what takes place on the 1335th day. It can only be understood by what is found in Revelation.

Just like it doesn't say what is meant by Michael standing up for Daniel's people. Which the explanation is found only in Revelation 12.
 
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On that timeline of events, of the AoD setup on day 2475, the great tribulation would last only the last 75 days of the 7 years.

What takes place on earth between day 1185 and day 2475?
I think 45 days of great tribulation.......after the Aof D is set up. And yet there is going to be problems for the entire 70th week of Daniel.........starting with the rider on the white horse going out conquering and to conquer. Then wars and rumors of wars, famine and pestilence. Then the daily sacrifice will be taken away. I think all over the world you will have to worship the image of the beast I just don't see the AofD being set up in the temple until day 2475. That's when those in Jerusalem understand to flee. They are the remnant that goes trough the wrath of God.......protected. The Church is already gone in the pre trib rapture. The 12 tribes (those that now believe) that are scattered across the earth (those that haven't been killed) are raptured pre wrath.

The problem that everyone has.......particularly those that believe in a pretrib rapture........they don't understand that the 70th week is the time of Jacobs trouble. It is the time of trouble for the 12 tribes that are scattered across the earth. The wrath of God is a completely separate event. They get confused by the times, time and half a time. I noticed you did not have.......times, time and half a time in your timeline. Think about that.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Tribulation g2347 'thilipsis', is most often used in the New Testament to speak of persecution. In Revelations and other places it speaks of wrath. The connection appears to be the wrath that follows the persecution of the tribulation saints like the martyrs under the altar at the opening of the fifth seal.
My bro Paul appeared to suffer a lot of tribulation, along with persecutions from his own kin, the Jews.

Acts 9:
15 And the Lord said unto him, ‘Be going on, because a choice vessel to Me is this one, to bear My name before nations and kings — the sons also of Israel;
16 for I will shew him how many things it behoveth him for My name to suffer.

2 Corinthians 6:
[2 Corinthians 11:22-28]
3 in nothing giving any cause of offence, that the ministration may be not blamed, 4 but in everything recommending ourselves as God’s ministrants; in much patience, in tribulations, in necessities, in distresses, 5 in stripes<4127>, in prisons<5438> in insurrections, in labours, in watchings, in fastings,


2 Corinthians 11:
22 Hebrews are they? I also! Israelites are they? I also! seed of Abraham are they? I also! 23 ministrants of Christ are they? — as beside myself I speak — I more; in labours more abundantly, in stripes<4127> above measure, in prisons<5438> more frequently, in deaths many times; 24 from Jews five times forty [stripes] save one I did receive;


Is this a literal 10 days the Saints are in prison?

Revelation 2:10
“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the Devil is about to throw some of you into a prison<5438>, that you may be tested/tried, and you will have tribulation ten days.
Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of the life.

Now this is interesting. The exact form of the greek word for "stripes/blows" #2147 used in 2 Corinthians is used 1 time in Revelation:

Revelation 9:20
But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these stripes/blows<4127>, did not repent of the works of their hands,

that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.

4127. plege play-gay' from 4141; a stroke; by implication,
a wound; figuratively, a calamity:--plague, stripe, wound(-ed).
 
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I am not changing what is written in Daniel 12:11. Daniel 12:11 indicates there will be 1290 days - but it doesn't say in Daniel 12 1290 days till what.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Sure it does. It tells you exactly what happens after 1290 days. It tells you that the abomination of desolation will be set up............1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away. The problem is not that God did not say what happens after 1290 days, the problem is that you can't figure out how to fit this in your timeline. YOU SAID IT YOURSELF in an earlier post. Therefore instead of taking rock solid information to build your timeline, you instead throw away rock solid information. Once you are off course other pieces of the timeline fall apart.


It's the exact same problem that Iamlamad is having with the signs of the sun, moon and stars. He can't comprehend how the cosmic signs of Matthew 24 are the same signs that are given in Rev 6 at the 6th seal. The signs are almost exact........and yet he can't accept them because he can't figure out how to get them in his timeline.

Start building the timeline with rock solid information such as the signs of Matt 24 are the same signs of Rev 6, the sixth seal. Also, the abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away. Quit throwing away this information because you don't understand how to fit them in your timeline. Use the information and change the timeline.

 
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Douggg

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Sure it does. It tells you exactly what happens after 1290 days. It tells you that the abomination of desolation will be set up............1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away
It doesn't even make sense that the daily sacrifice is taken away - then a period over three later the AoD is setup.


It's the exact same problem that Iamlamad is having with the signs of the sun, moon and stars. He can't comprehend how the cosmic signs of Matthew 24 are the same signs that are given in Rev 6 at the 6th seal. The signs are almost exact........and yet he can't accept them because he can't figure out how to get them in his timeline.
No, it is not the same problem. I can put the sixth seal event on the timeline where it fits... on day 2475.

Start building the timeline with rock solid information such as the signs of Matt 24 are the same signs of Rev 6, the sixth seal. Also, the abomination of desolation happens 1290 days after the daily sacrifice is taken away. Quit throwing away this information because you don't understand how to fit them in your timeline. Use the information and change the timeline.
CW, I am not the person who has the problem. Everything on the timeline I show fits within the seven years - which ends the day Jesus returns.
 
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keras

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What the 7th seal does is begin the visions that John is shown for the remainder of Revelation. Those visions show how the events in the six seals he was just shown fit together.

The six seals show the beginning of the seven years in seal one, to near the very end of the seven years in the sixth seal, although the sixth seal is not the exact end day of the 7 years - which is in Revelation 19.
This opinion is quite wrong. It necessitates considerable shuffling of the Revelation sequence.

The Seventh Seal is a time gap between the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation. The SS is the next prophesied event we can expect, the several years later, after the Temple is desecrated; the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls start, then Jesus will return.
 
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Douggg

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The Seventh Seal is a time gap between the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation. The SS is the next prophesied event we can expect, the several years later, after the Temple is desecrated; the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls start, then Jesus will return.
The seventh seal was a seal on the book, that was broke open so that the contents of the book could be viewed. When it was broke open, John was shown all the visions in the rest of Revelation.

Talk about specific events themselves, so we can get rid of all this ambiguity - that plagues this forum. There were many many visions shown to John after the seventh seal was broke open.

The great tribulation begins when the AoD is setup. When does the AoD setup take place on the 7 year timeline?
 
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Douggg

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I noticed you did not have.......times, time and half a time in your timeline. Think about that.

You can go to my post #98 in this thread. But I will incorporate that infromation into the full seven years, here. I just started a separate thread on the 7 year timeline btw.

day1.........day*...........day 1185 AoD setup.....day 1260 two witnesses killed.......

day 1263.5 they ascend.....7th trumpet sounds.......war in heaven.......time times half

times left
in the 7 years.....day 2475 sixth seal event (Matthew 24:29-30 sign of Son of

Man in heaven).........the armies assemble at Armageddon.......day 2520 last day of

the 7 years, Jesus descends to earth and executes judgment on them.
________________________________________________________________

day* is an unknown day on the timeline. This is the day that the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood. This is what triggers the Day of the Lord, which begins like a thief in the night.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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This opinion is quite wrong. It necessitates considerable shuffling of the Revelation sequence.

The Seventh Seal is a time gap between the Sixth Seal and the Great Tribulation. The SS is the next prophesied event we can expect, the several years later, after the Temple is desecrated; the GT of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls start, then Jesus will return.
May He come soon............

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized

I have put the Messengers and bowls in order, but is a work in progress
LUKE CHAPTERS 19, 21, 23 AND REVELATION "DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM 70AD"


Revelation 15:1 [Revelation 16:17]
And I perceived another sign in the heaven, great and marvelous.
Seven Messengers having seven stripes/blows<4127>, the last,
that in them is finished the fury<2372> of the GOD..............

One of the 4 living ones gives the 7 Messengers 7 golden bowls full of the wrath of God.

Revelation 5:8
Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb,
each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven Messengers seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.


The seven Messengers come to talk to John and they already have the bowls.
One shows him the Harlot/Great City and the other one shows him the Bride of the Lamb


Revelation 17:1
Then one of the seven Messengers who had the seven bowls came and talked with me, saying to me,[fn]
Come! I will show you the judgment of the great Harlot who sits on many waters,
Revelation 21:9
Then one of the seven Messengers who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last stripes/blows came to me[fn] and talked with me, saying,
Come, I will show you the Bride, the Lamb’s wife

Then the final Consummation and end to the OC City/Harlot....

Revelation 16:17
Then the seventh Messenger poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came out of the Sanctuary of heaven, from the throne, saying, “It is finished!


The exact word used for the harlot in Revelation is used in this rather interesting verse:

1 Corinthians 6:15
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?
Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a harlot? Certainly not!



.
 
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