Prewrath?

Douggg

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The 7th seal begins the week.
What the 7th seal does is begin the visions that John is shown for the remainder of Revelation. Those visions show how the events in the six seals he was just shown fit together.

The six seals show the beginning of the seven years in seal one, to near the very end of the seven years in the sixth seal, although the sixth seal is not the exact end day of the 7 years - which is in Revelation 19.
 
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Douggg

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I understand Johns chronology perfectly. What John tells us in Rev 6 is what Jesus tells us in Matt 24.
Parts are. Matthew 24 does not indicate what begins the 7 years. We have to go to Daniel 9 for that. Matthew 24:15 begins in the middle part of week when the great tribulation begins and continues to the end of the week when Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation.
 
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Imagine just a normal reading, suppose by a 5th grader, of the book of Revelation - after they had read Matthew 24. If you asked them after they read it: where in the book of Revelation would you say the days of GT are found. How many do you think would say in the seals? they would remember the days of GT would be just before Jesus' return to earth. They would see His return in chapter 19. My guess is, THEY would guess the days of GT would be just before chapter 19.

Well, I guess your way is starting to have more problems.


Here's Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here we see the gathering......right before the coming of Jesus.........BEFORE the day of Lord, which begins His wrath.

I see no white horses in Matthew 24. I see no end of the wrath of God in Matt 24, I see the end of the tribulation..........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Jesus comes for the pre wrath rapture in Matt 24. The tribes mourn because they realize that they are about to be cast into wrath.........which we can clearly see in Rev 6. No Revelation 19 going on in Matthew 24. It is the gathering.
 
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Parts are. Matthew 24 does not indicate what begins the 7 years. We have to go to Daniel 9 for that.
I'm good with that.
QUOTE="Douggg, post: 73274548, member: 243832"]
Matthew 24:15 begins in the middle part of week when the great tribulation begins and continues to the end of the week when Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation.[/QUOTE]
Matt 24:15 is towards the end of the week. The daily sacrifice is taken away in the midst of the week.
Daniel 12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

And yes, Jesus does come and end the great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.
 
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tranquil

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The problem with discussing 'pre wrath' is that there are 2 'wraths' and thus 2 'raptures' (there is no 'whisked away rapture', it is being gathered on earth by the messengers). (There are 2 wraths because there is the wrath occurring because people have chosen the 7th head of Satan at the 1st Trumpet (start of the Day of the Lord's wrath), then there is another wrath (at the 7th Trumpet/ 7 bowls of wrath) when people chose the 8th head of Satan at the 7th Trumpet. the 1st gathering is before the Trumpets (7th Seal) and the 2nd gathering is the 'come up here' to the 2 witnesses at the end of the 6th Trumpet before the 7th Trumpet.)

  • The 1st gathering happens at the 7th Seal (144,000 sealed & the great multitude). People who don't accept Gog are gathered together. The Day of the Lord/ day of the Lord's wrath starts at the Trumpets (Feb 4, 2021), start of 1290 days, and start of the 1st woe (the locusts of the 5th Trumpet are Gog's locusts that cut off the daily sacrifices Joel 1:4-5).
  • Gog takes power at the 1st Trumpet with the destruction of Mystery Babylon (2nd Trumpet). (Which people think is the destruction of Gog, when in fact, Gog is the one taking power and will be received as messiah.) Gog is the 7th head of Satan.
  • 5 months later, at the 2nd woe, 6th Trumpet, starts the mouth of the beast from the sea (a false prophet). To people who think Gog is the messiah, this has the appearance of the destruction of Magog and the messiah forcing 'Egypt' to worship during the millenium (Ezekiel 29 & Zechariah 14:16-19) (which is why July 4, 2021 is so important, the US functions as a fake Magog and 'spiritual Egypt' hence the dollar pyramid/ Illuminati Freemasonry Egyptian symbolism.
  • Then at the next 24 Kislev, (dusk Nov 27, 2021) the 2 witnesses prophecy for 1260 days, then are dead for 3.5 days taking us to dawn May 14, 2025, the 2nd gathering & the 77th anniversary of Jerusalem in new Israel, when a holy place will be anointed where the false prophet (the 8th head of Satan) will go and confirm the covenant and break it 3.5 days later. (from May 14, 2025 to the end of feast of Tabernacles (dusk Oct 13, 2025) and the start of God's wrath is 5 months. The 5 months of the 5th trumpet mirrors this timeframe.)
 
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Douggg

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Matt 24:15 is towards the end of the week. The daily sacrifice is taken away in the midst of the week.
Daniel 12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

What if you read it like this?

11: And from the midst of the week - that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up - there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days .
 
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What the 7th seal does is begin the visions that John is shown for the remainder of Revelation. Those visions show how the events in the six seals he was just shown fit together.

The six seals show the beginning of the seven years in seal one, to near the very end of the seven years in the sixth seal, although the sixth seal is not the exact end day of the 7 years - which is in Revelation 19.
SORRY......THAT WAS SUPPOSE TO SAY...........The 7th seal begins the WRATH.
 
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iamlamad

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Sure. I also note that you have an issue with the moon being as blood, but you have no issue with the stars falling in Matt 24 and Rev 6 but they don't fall in Joel 2, they withdraw their shining. Well, that's a problem. Why do you have no problem with the stars falling in Matt 24 and Rev 6, but not in Joel 2?

Ok, I'll admit that there is a huge problem if you look at things my way. If you look at things my way you have to look past it saying the moon is as blood in Rev 6 and the moon not giving it's light in Matt 24. I'd don't know, I guess it's a huge stretch to say that a blood colored moon is not giving it's light. It make me wonder what I was thinking.

And there's really not much problem when you look at things your way. All you have to look past is two tribulation periods, Jesus coming in Rev 6 and again in Rev 14, a harvest in Rev 7 and another harvest in Rev 14, the beginning of wrath in Rev 6 or at the opening of the 7th seal (however you want to look at it) and wrath beginning again in Rev 14, and you have an end of wrath in Rev 11 and you have an end of wrath in Rev 16. I guess there is also a slight issue of the stars falling in both Matt 24 and Rev 6 but they withdraw their shining in Joel 2, but that's not really much to consider.

Ok, I think you convinced me that my way has more issues.
New thread on SIGNS.
 
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iamlamad

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CW, you are understanding Daniel 12:11 incorrectly. It "could be" understood exactly as you are understanding it - yes. Meaning between the daily sacrifice taken away and the AoD setup - there are 1290 days.

But the text doesn't say "between". Which there is another way of understanding it as the daily sacrifice taken away and at the same time the AoD setup - there shall be 1290 days from then to something - something not revealed in Daniel 12.

The great tribulation is timed to the AoD setup in the temple. 1290 days from then, something takes place. Which will be the sixth seal event. Otherwise, it is not possible to place the sixth seal event on the timeline.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
PLEASE! Stop moving the 6th seal out of its place between the 5th and 7th! It cannot be moved!
 
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iamlamad

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What if you read it like this?

11: And from the midst of the week - that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up - there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days .
Good! DAniel said "and" not "to."
 
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iamlamad

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I'm good with that.
QUOTE="Douggg, post: 73274548, member: 243832"]
Matthew 24:15 begins in the middle part of week when the great tribulation begins and continues to the end of the week when Jesus returns, to end the great tribulation.
Matt 24:15 is towards the end of the week. The daily sacrifice is taken away in the midst of the week.
Daniel 12

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

And yes, Jesus does come and end the great tribulation. Then the 7th seal is opened and THE WRATH OF GOD BEGINS.[/QUOTE]
You are reading it as if Daniel wrote it like this:

Daniel 12
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, TO the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Only problem with that theory is, it is BOGUS.
 
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iamlamad

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Well, I guess your way is starting to have more problems.

Here's Matt 24
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thes 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Here we see the gathering......right before the coming of Jesus.........BEFORE the day of Lord, which begins His wrath.

I see no white horses in Matthew 24. I see no end of the wrath of God in Matt 24, I see the end of the tribulation..........IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION.

Jesus comes for the pre wrath rapture in Matt 24. The tribes mourn because they realize that they are about to be cast into wrath.........which we can clearly see in Rev 6. No Revelation 19 going on in Matthew 24. It is the gathering.
I see how you work: find two exact words, and without ANY consideration of context, the two verses MUST be speaking of the same thing.

You simply amaze me! Do you EVER consider the context? Anyone can make the bible say anything by pulling verses out of context.

Case in point: the gathering in 2 thes 2 cannot possibly be the same gathering as seen in Matthew 24. Remember, context is KING.
 
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What if you read it like this?

11: And from the midst of the week - that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up - there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days .

Well I could read it like that, and certainly have before, but that's not what it says. What if you read EXACTLY what it says?

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Question.......1290 days to what? The only answer we can come up with is the abomination of desolation because we know there are 1335 days. What if it said there are 1291 days. 1291 days to what? To the end? Can't be because there are 1335 days. The only answer is that there are 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away UNTIL the abomination of desolation is set up. But instead of reading exactly what God says and apply it as fact, we reason...........it can't mean that because............. And I can certainly come up with several reasons why it can't mean that. But those reasons are wrong. For us to really understand revelation, we have to go by exactly what God says. And then we have to figure out why the reasons that we think it can't mean what it says are wrong.

 
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I see how you work: find two exact words, and without ANY consideration of context, the two verses MUST be speaking of the same thing.

You simply amaze me! Do you EVER consider the context? Anyone can make the bible say anything by pulling verses out of context.

Case in point: the gathering in 2 thes 2 cannot possibly be the same gathering as seen in Matthew 24. Remember, context is KING.
Listen..........I already what you know. And I know why it doesn't work.

Feel free to tell me......using scripture........why the gathering of Matt 24 is not the gathering of 2 thes 2. Is it because of all those white horse that you imagine are in Matt 24? They are not there. Matt 24 is not when Jesus is coming to set up his kingdom. It is when He is coming to gather his elect. Then the wrath of God will begin......JUST LIKE IT SAYS.
 
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Douggg

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PLEASE! Stop moving the 6th seal out of its place between the 5th and 7th! It cannot be moved!
The seals are locks. Each lock when opened reveals its contents.

I have not moved the order which the locks were opened.

The events revealed when locks 1-6 were opened - covered from the beginning of the seven years to right at the end of the seven years.

Then lock 7 was opened - and what it contained were all the visions that John was shown to take place during the seven years.
_____________________________________________________________________

But, differently, you are interpreting the time frame from lock 1 to lock 6 to be over the course of 2000 years, right? Beginning with the rider on the white horse being Jesus.

Well, that is where you are going wrong in your thinking.
 
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iamlamad

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Well I could read it like that, and certainly have before, but that's not what it says. What if you read EXACTLY what it says?

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

Question.......1290 days to what? The only answer we can come up with is the abomination of desolation because we know there are 1335 days. What if it said there are 1291 days. 1291 days to what? To the end? Can't be because there are 1335 days. The only answer is that there are 1290 days from the time the daily sacrifice is taken away UNTIL the abomination of desolation is set up. But instead of reading exactly what God says and apply it as fact, we reason...........it can't mean that because............. And I can certainly come up with several reasons why it can't mean that. But those reasons are wrong. For us to really understand revelation, we have to go by exactly what God says. And then we have to figure out why the reasons that we think it can't mean what it says are wrong.
You talk a good talk, but what about your walk?
You are STILL reading that with a "TO" when it says "and." It is NOT a from / to statement as you are reading it. And you are not keeping with the context.

The context is from the start "of these wonders" to the end "of these wonders" would be 3 1/2 years. (Confirmed by John 3 different ways.)

Daniel is not satisfied. Perhaps because he is not sure of the beginning of "these wonders." The chapter started with days of GT worse than any other time ever. That must be included in "these wonders." Then when the power of his people is completely shattered must be included so. But does Daniel have an exact start and finish? He has only 3 1/2 years but from when to when? From the shattering of his people? From the "time of trouble" worse than anything else?

Daniel still does not know the beginning or the final outcome.

Then the angel says:
"and from" and know Daniel knows he is getting a starting point:

And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up....

Now Daniel has two things to identify the start of the wonders: They will begin when the Daily sacrifices are taken away (something He had already written about) AND when the abomination is set up....so now Daniel knows that when the sacrifices are taken away, an abomination is set up. But Daniel still does not know the outcome! The angel gives him one more piece of information:

From this starting point - there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
and:
12 Blessed is he that (from that same starting point) waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
 
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iamlamad

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The seals are locks. Each lock when opened reveals its contents.

I have not moved the order which the locks were opened.

The events revealed when locks 1-6 were opened - covered from the beginning of the seven years to right at the end of the seven years.

Then lock 7 was opened - and what it contained were all the visions that John was shown to take place during the seven years.
_____________________________________________________________________

But, differently, you are interpreting the time frame from lock 1 to lock 6 to be over the course of 2000 years, right? Beginning with the rider on the white horse being Jesus.

Well, that is where you are going wrong in your thinking.
No, that is where I am right and others are wrong. And you are missing the MAIN point: the book cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first. Don't overlook this point. Almost everyone does. They imagine something from inside the book relates to one of the locks to the book. It is impossible.

You wrote, "The great tribulation is timed to the AoD setup in the temple. 1290 days from then, something takes place. Which will be the sixth seal event."

You just placed the 6th seal to AFTER the entire week has finished! "the week" is what is written INSIDE the book. The seals have to be opened before the book can be opened.
 
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Douggg

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No, that is where I am right and others are wrong. And you are missing the MAIN point: the book cannot be opened until all 7 seals are opened first. Don't overlook this point. Almost everyone does. They imagine something from inside the book relates to one of the locks to the book. It is impossible.
All the seals, locks, on the book were removed back when John received Revelation.

The contents - the events - that were revealed, however, have not taken place yet.

But the book itself was opened back in John's day, and he reported what he was shown to the church.

It appears to me that you seem to be thinking that each seal is some sort of trigger. That things don't happen literally - until each seal is opened, at a certain time in history.
You wrote, "The great tribulation is timed to the AoD setup in the temple. 1290 days from then, something takes place. Which will be the sixth seal event."
I wrote sixth seal event

You just placed the 6th seal to AFTER the entire week has finished! "the week" is what is written INSIDE the book. The seals have to be opened before the book can be opened.

You left out what I wrote - sixth seal event - not just 6th seal.

And I did not write after the entire week is finished. The sixth seal event will take place 1290 days from when the AoD is setup on day 1185. Which puts the sixth seal event on day 2475 of the 2520 day 7 year timeline.

The book has already been opened, and the seals removed, otherwise, we would not know what it contains.
________________________________________________________________

lamad, when people discuss Revelation with each other, they will often say - when the sixth seal (or whatever seal) is "opened" - it is just bad application of language - what is really being meant is when the events of the sixth seal (or whatever seal) take place or are fulfilled.

I don't say when the sixth seal is opened - for that very reason. Because it is misleading, and not factual. Instead, I will write when the sixth seal event takes place.

I would like to see you start using - sixth seal event - instead of just sixth seal. And leave out the "opened" as something that takes place in the future. The entire book has already been "opened" when John was shown the contents.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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JM said:
Any Prewrath Rapture proponents on CF?

Thanks,
jm
yes, and I tend to be post trib. as a result.
What's the difference between distress, tribulation and wrath?

Zephaniah 1:15
15 That day is a day of wrath<5678>, A day of tribulation/distress<6869> and constraint<4691>,
A day of devastation and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloominess, A day of clouds and thick darkness,


Daniel 12:1
“At that time Michael shall stand up, the great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of tribulation/distress<6869, such as never was since there was a nation, even to that time.
And at that time your people shall escape, every one who is found written in the book.

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 harmonized

Matthew 24:21
for then shall be great tribulation<2347> , such as was not from the beginning of world till now, no, nor may be becoming
Mark 13:19
For in those days shall be tribulation<2347> such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.


Luke 21 mentions both "great distress" and "wrath" but not "great tribulation".
Both distress and tribulation appear to be similar in meaning?


Wrath #3709 is only used in 5 verses of the Gospels, the verse in Matthew is used against the corrupt murderous Judean rulers.


Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress<318> in the land and wrath <3709>upon this people.

Matthew 3:7
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them,
“Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the being about wrath<3709>?


Revelation 11:18 uses the same exact form of the word #3709 as in Luke 21:23.

Revelation 11:18
[Matthew 3:7 Luke 21:23]
The nations were angry, and Your wrath<3709> has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged,
And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints,
And those who fear Your name, small and great,
And should destroy those who destroy the earth.”
 
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