Church of Constantinople officially recognizes the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kiev Patriarchate

[MariaJLM]

Aye, and that is the big question. Will this be between two sees, or will it be a much wider potential schism? Alexandria for instance has been vehemently supporting the canonical Ukrainian Church over the past couple weeks, Patriarch Theodoros even went to Ukraine and concelebrated with the canonical bishops. You have to wonder what the other churches will do. Especially since most have openly backed Moscow on this issue.

This issue will likely mend itself in time, but it is deeply unfair to the laity across the world. Sure, you can say "go pray it off", it's true that we need to do this, but certain implications of this rift will impact all of us in some way or another.

Yes, definitely unfair. Especially for converts who live in areas where Orthodoxy is still very ethnic. I mean, I have no issue personally with ethnic parishes in themselves. It's the language barriers I'm worried about and travel distance. Not to mention all the effort in trying to explain to people new to the faith why the church is split. Imagine trying to explain that? It's utterly embarrassing.

Additionally, I'm already a person who tends to distrust most authority figures(I have my reasons) so seeing all this petty conflict between the church authority does me no good. I'm over here panicking and have been since yesterday.

 

[Dorothea]

that's what everyone thought until a few months ago.

Oh!

 

[Dorothea]

Part of the problem... Some in Ukraine hear the word "Moscow", and think of "friends, and family." ... Some, think of decades of "enemy occupation"

While that shouldn't be part of a discussion of The Church, it's unavoidable, to the people involved

Make sense. Thanks.

 

[Dorothea]

Well, during the time in which the Soviet Union existed, Ukraine was technically a part of "Russia", if by "Russia" you mean the whole Soviet Union.
Since the Soviet Union collapsed, however, Ukraine has been an independent nation from Russia.

Oh, I see. Thanks.

 

[Dorothea]

wat..? American ignorance. No offence but this is just crazy from an European POV. I learned my geography back in the late 90's and never thought anything like this

Oops. I've never been good at geography.

 

[Ioustinos]

I do not think this is a good thing, but as others have posted the Church has faced many challenges throughout history and Our Lord has remained faithful in His promise to us.

He does not abandon His bride - go to Church, say your prayers, remember God. He will take care of everything else.

 

[Sword of the Lord]

My long thought out response and opinion :

 

[prodromos]

My long thought out response and opinion :

Hands in the "orans" position, very good

 

[ArmyMatt]

Oh!

haha, my bad Dot, I misread what you posted.

 

[E.C.]

The Ukrainians seem to want their independence from the Russian Church and who are we to stop them. The reunion between the Eastern Orthodox Church and Oriental Orthodox won’t happen unless the Oriental Orthodox end up renouncing Miaphysitism and accepting the council of Chalcedon as legitimate, which I’m sure won’t happen any time soon.

Without going into too much derailment, Miaphysitism was deemed kosher I believe in the Chalcedon Council because it does not diminish either one of Christ's natures, which Monophysitism does. And in the hindsight of history we see that the split after, Chalcedon at the time, was caused primarily over a linguistic issue.

God willing we'll reunite one day.

the canons are what should stop them. you don't just decide independence because you want it. that's not how the Church works.

Exactly. As much as it would make sense for a Local Church to exist in Ukraine based out of Kiev, the chain of events after Communism ended isn't the way to do it. You don't declare autocephaly the day after your state's declaration of independence. All of these countries with schismatics like Ukraine, Macedonia, and Montenegro jumped the gun too quickly for such a thing.

Yes, definitely unfair. Especially for converts who live in areas where Orthodoxy is still very ethnic. I mean, I have no issue personally with ethnic parishes in themselves. It's the language barriers I'm worried about and travel distance. Not to mention all the effort in trying to explain to people new to the faith why the church is split. Imagine trying to explain that? It's utterly embarrassing.

Additionally, I'm already a person who tends to distrust most authority figures(I have my reasons) so seeing all this petty conflict between the church authority does me no good. I'm over here panicking and have been since yesterday.

The nice thing about the Orthodox Church is that despite bumps in the road like this, the Faith and the theology remain the same. The Nicene Creed is still our statement of faith. We're not about to have a council debating theology and dogma anytime soon. We're not going to completely fall apart like the Episcopalians after they started ordaining openly gay bishops.

 

[Barney2.0]

Without going into too much derailment, Miaphysitism was deemed kosher I believe in the Chalcedon Council because it does not diminish either one of Christ's natures, which Monophysitism does. And in the hindsight of history we see that the split after, Chalcedon at the time, was caused primarily over a linguistic issue.

God willing we'll reunite one day.


Exactly. As much as it would make sense for a Local Church to exist in Ukraine based out of Kiev, the chain of events after Communism ended isn't the way to do it. You don't declare autocephaly the day after your state's declaration of independence. All of these countries with schismatics like Ukraine, Macedonia, and Montenegro jumped the gun too quickly for such a thing.


The nice thing about the Orthodox Church is that despite bumps in the road like this, the Faith and the theology remain the same. The Nicene Creed is still our statement of faith. We're not about to have a council debating theology and dogma anytime soon. We're not going to completely fall apart like the Episcopalians after they started ordaining openly gay bishops.

Although I’m not informed enough to speak on such a subject, I believe Miaphysitism is heretical in the grounds that it teaches that the two nature of Christ somehow united into a new composite nature while somehow remaining separate. But are no longer considered two nature, in any case Oriental Orthodox style themselves as Non Chalcedonian.

 

[Markie Boy]

In the Eastern Orthodox Church, there are no dogmatic differences. Schism can happen due to dogmatic differences, but in this case, it's a debate of jurisdiction - who has authority over the territory of Ukraine.

See the posts in this thread:
Why is there a conflict inside the Church

So there is no doctrine issue - it's power and authority? Any idea why?

I have been learning more about Orthodoxy, and would appreciate this insight.

 

[ArmyMatt]

Although I’m not informed enough to speak on such a subject, I believe Miaphysitism is heretical in the grounds that it teaches that the two nature of Christ somehow united into a new composite nature while somehow remaining separate. But are no longer considered two nature, in any case Oriental Orthodox style themselves as Non Chalcedonian.

miaphysitism is not heretical per say depending on understanding according to the 5th Council.

 

[Dorothea]

haha, my bad Dot, I misread what you posted.

No problem.

 

[Barney2.0]

miaphysitism is not heretical per say depending on understanding according to the 5th Council.

So why do Oriental Orthodox not accept the council of Chalcedon?

 

[ArmyMatt]

So why do Oriental Orthodox not accept the council of Chalcedon?

they insist on St Cyril's One Nature formula, even though St Cyril never did. so they view Chalcedon as crypto-Nestorian, even though Chalcedon affirmed Nestorius' condemnation.

 

[gzt]

Anyway, if we want to bring it back to Ukraine, this article gives some background to the struggle and why a lot of people are uneasy about control in Moscow: Ukrainian Autocephaly and European Security

 

[gzt]

I found Fr Andrew's remarks here to be helpful: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick It alludes, by the way, to several past instances of temporarily broken communion, which is more common than one might think, to touch on the non-Ukraine discussion which seems to be going on but which I don't want to read.

 

[ArmyMatt]

I found Fr Andrew's remarks here to be helpful: Fr. Andrew Stephen Damick It alludes, by the way, to several past instances of temporarily broken communion, which is more common than one might think, to touch on the non-Ukraine discussion which seems to be going on but which I don't want to read.

agreed. he took a very pastoral approach.

 

[E.C.]

On an related note, it is interesting that this story is reported on the BBC Spanish site, in Spanish, but not on the BBC site in English