Can we choose Him before He wakes us up?

[Johnny4ChristJesus]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

 

[Dave L]

Most of the confusion over this is based on the free will gospel popular today. People think they must choose to believe in order to be saved. But choosing to believe is in fact - their first act of faith. You need to believe already or you wouldn't choose to believe! Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. It's a characteristic of those whom he saves.

 

[eleos1954]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

***

It's the work of the Holy Spirit - on - in & through the person

Step 1 (on) - The Holy Spirit calls everyone

Revelation 3
Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

Step 2 (in) - The person answers the door, sincerely confesses, repents, receives Jesus as their Savior and are forgiven. The Holy Spirit begins changing their lives. The person learns more about the Lord through His word.

John 10

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,

Acts 2
... “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Step 3 (through) - The person shares the gospel with others.

Mark 16

15 And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature ...

Step 2 is where one is truly woke up and becomes spiritually alive, they receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dave-W]

Most of the confusion over this is based on the free will gospel popular today. People think they must choose to believe in order to be saved. But choosing to believe is in fact - their first act of faith. You need to believe already or you wouldn't choose to believe! Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. It's a characteristic of those whom he saves.

Not really. Our Lord said "No one comes to me unless the Father draws him."

That "drawing" is conviction from the Holy Spirit. In Wesleyan circles it is called prevenient grace. We sense the pull. We sense the bad place we are in. But in that moment we have the choice to follow that draw or not. We cannot just say "no" today and next week say "yes" when that draw is not there. We have no power to do so.

But sensing the pull is NOT being saved.
That happens only after we respond positively to the draw.

 

[Dave L]

Not really. Our Lord said "No one comes to me unless the Father draws him."

That "drawing" is conviction from the Holy Spirit. In Wesleyan circles it is called prevenient grace. We sense the pull. We sense the bad place we are in. But in that moment we have the choice to follow that draw or not. We cannot just say "no" today and next week say "yes" when that draw is not there. We have no power to do so.

But sensing the pull is NOT being saved.
That happens only after we respond positively to the draw.

But you assume God draws people according to what you think. But he tells us otherwise. That faith (belief) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and that is what draws us. Doubt sends us the other way.

 

[Dave-W]

That faith (belief) is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and that is what draws us.

There is no "fruit of the Spirit" before being born again.
Fruit takes a long time to grow.

This kind of faith that is granted by prevenient grace is a different thing.

 

[Ken Rank]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

I don't believe we have been born spiritually dead. That doctrine just doesn't hold up to the balance of Scripture. Consider... if we are born spiritually dead and only the work of Messiah can undo that death... then how can David cry out asking God to not remove His Holy Spirit from him? Why would Abraham be considered a man of great faith and a "friend of God" according to Scripture? Why would God... the God of life... enter covenant with death? After all, if it isn't until Messiah's work that this spiritual death is reversed, than why did God enter covenant with Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, all of Israel? They are dead and He is life and that would be mixing the profane and holy... wouldn't it?

No.... that is why the doctrine of spiritual death doesn't hold up. The death in the garden was physical... Adam was not created to die, his sin caused a clock to begin ticking toward his demise. When we are changed, made incorruptible, perfected... then there will be no more death. But there is still death which proves he has done the work and WILL perfect us, but we are still paying the price of sin (death). Some will balk at that thought... but remember.... an alcoholic can spend 20 years damaging his body and then come to Christ in faith, truly become a child of God, and yet still die of liver damage. We are all dying because of sin... but we also have the hope of resurrection now.

 

[Dave L]

There is no "fruit of the Spirit" before being born again.
Fruit takes a long time to grow.

This kind of faith that is granted by prevenient grace is a different thing.

You had to already believe (= saved) or you would not have chosen to believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Slightly different question to the one yesterday. Does it matter?

If we are born spiritually dead or become dead spiritually because of our own unavoidable sin nature, we need the work of God to make us spiritually alive again.

If we come spiritually dead, regardless of how, what do you base your belief on that we can choose God? Do you believe He has to make us spiritually alive before we can choose Him or can we choose Him before He awakens us?

It is my understanding that He calls us thru hearing the gospel and at that point we are able to choose whether or not to accept it and believe.

 

[Dave L]

It is my understanding that He calls us thru hearing the gospel and at that point we are able to choose whether or not to accept it and believe.

But if you choose, it's because you already believe or you would not choose. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You had to already believe (= saved) or you would not have chosen to believe.

Forigive me for saying so brother but that doesn’t make much sense. You have to already believe before you can believe? Is there perhaps evidence I’m missing to support this idea?

 

[BNR32FAN]

But if you choose, it's because you already believe or you would not choose. Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life.

How does Jesus saying whoever believes has eternal life equate to already believing before choosing to believe?

 

[Dave L]

Forigive me for saying so brother but that doesn’t make much sense. You have to already believe before you can believe? Is there perhaps evidence I’m missing to support this idea?

Think about it. You won't stoop to pick up a dollar if you don't believe it is there. You've been taught you must choose to believe before God will save you. So in the same sense you choose to pick up salvation by going through a little decision making ritual only those who already believe would go through.

 

[Dave L]

How does Jesus saying whoever believes has eternal life equate to already believing before choosing to believe?

Believing is an attribute of those whom God saves. It is not a condition for the self-righteous to hold up to God prodding him to do his part.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How does Jesus saying whoever believes has eternal life equate to already believing before choosing to believe?

That means once a person believes (present tense) they have eternal life (present tense). It doesn’t say whoever believes already believed or already had eternal life. Also even tho someone has eternal life it can be revoked. No one actually receives eternal life until after they die or judgement day comes.

 

[Dave-W]

You had to already believe (= saved) or you would not have chosen to believe.

Nope. That is what prevenient grace is all about.
It gives US the choice to be saved or not.

"Choose you this day whom you shall serve ..."

 

[Dave L]

That means once a person believes (present tense) they have eternal life (present tense). It doesn’t say whoever believes already believed or already had eternal life. Also even tho someone has eternal life it can be revoked. No one actually receives eternal life until after they die or judgement day comes.

Eternal life has no beginning or end. You were always saved in God's mind. And nothing can change the eternal decree. Those who appear to believe and fall away never had eternal life.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Think about it. You won't stoop to pick up a dollar if you don't believe it is there. You've been taught you must choose to believe before God will save you. So in the same sense you choose to pick up salvation by going through a little decision making ritual only those who already believe would go through.

But you didn’t believe it was there until you saw it with your eyes or someone told you about it. You won’t be sitting on your couch at home and all the sudden go outside to pick up a dollar bill already knowing it’s laying on the sidewalk without either seeing it or being told about it. A person cannot believe the gospel of they have never heard the gospel.

 

[Dave L]

Nope. That is what prevenient grace is all about.
It gives US the choice to be saved or not.

"Choose you this day whom you shall serve ..."

If you have eternal life, you were always saved in God's mind. And nothing can change that without making God's omniscience imperfect.

 

[Dave-W]

Believing is an attribute of those whom God saves.

That faith is AFTER salvation, not the faith required FOR salvation.

It is not a condition for the self-righteous to hold up to God prodding him to do his part.

That is an intentional misrepresentation of salvic faith.