Do you believe Christmas is pagan?

Yeshua HaDerekh

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We can address the John passages in due course. I'm happy to answer to them. But you're first going to answer to the ones I've posted for you. I won't let this conversation go past them. You're going to answer, or we're going to get no further.

You have to figure out the problem...because there IS one.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Dude, I asked for a straight forward answer to a straight forward question. I didn't ask "when is the lamb slain." I asked, "what date is this passage." I want your acknowledgement of the dating of the passage.

I told you. the 14th is when the lamb was killed
 
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AFrazier

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I told you. the 14th is when the lamb was killed
Are you trying to goad me? Is there some reason you can't answer the question I asked in the manner in which I asked it to be answered?
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Are you trying to goad me? Is there some reason you can't answer the question I asked in the manner in which I asked it to be answered?

That IS the answer...you just don't like it. SOOOOOOO many holes in your theory!
 
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AFrazier

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That's about what I thought. No answers.
That IS the answer...you just don't like it
No, that's an answer, but not the answer I asked for. You are avoiding answering the question I actually asked. It's like you're trying to leave yourself some wiggle room so you don't get trapped.

I'm well aware that the lamb is killed on the 14th. I'm also aware that leaven is destroyed on the 14th. What I want you to acknowledge is that this passage is the afternoon of the 14th. And you're deliberately avoiding doing so. And not because you disagree with it. If you did, you would give a contrary response, or some interpretive response. Instead, you are just avoiding answering altogether, because we both know that the dating of the verse is the afternoon of the 14th.

And if that passage, which precedes the night of the last supper, is the afternoon of the 14th, as we both know it is, then Jesus couldn't have been crucified on the 14th.

So answer the question, or show proof that that passage does not refer to the 14th.

If you can't do either, I will consider it a forfeit on your part and accept the win in this debate.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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We can address the John passages in due course. I'm happy to answer to them. But you're first going to answer to the ones I've posted for you. I won't let this conversation go past them. You're going to answer, or we're going to get no further.

"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" …………….THE 14th
 
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AFrazier

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"And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!" …………….THE 14th
And another avoidance. You REALLY don't want to answer that scripture, do you? I told you, we'll get to John as soon as you acknowledge the scriptures I've given you. You don't get to ignore three gospels to support your theological interpretation. I won't allow it.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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That's about what I thought. No answers.

No, that's an answer, but not the answer I asked for. You are avoiding answering the question I actually asked. It's like you're trying to leave yourself some wiggle room so you don't get trapped.

I'm well aware that the lamb is killed on the 14th. I'm also aware that leaven is destroyed on the 14th. What I want you to acknowledge is that this passage is the afternoon of the 14th. And you're deliberately avoiding doing so. And not because you disagree with it. If you did, you would give a contrary response, or some interpretive response. Instead, you are just avoiding answering altogether, because we both know that the dating of the verse is the afternoon of the 14th.

And if that passage, which precedes the night of the last supper, is the afternoon of the 14th, as we both know it is, then Jesus couldn't have been crucified on the 14th.

So answer the question, or show proof that that passage does not refer to the 14th.

If you can't do either, I will consider it a forfeit on your part and accept the win in this debate.

You can never win this debate because your theory is wrong.

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!...….THE 14th!
 
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AFrazier

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You can never win this debate because your theory is wrong.

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!...….THE 14th!
Again ... not a theory. It's what the scriptures say. You are avoiding them. We don't talk about John until you acknowledge what I've given you.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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And another avoidance. You REALLY don't want to answer that scripture, do you? I told you, we'll get to John as soon as you acknowledge the scriptures I've given you. You don't get to ignore three gospels to support your theological interpretation. I won't allow it.

The 14th is what I said. Remember the 14th begins after sunset on the 13th.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Again ... not a theory. It's what the scriptures say. You are avoiding them. We don't talk about John until you acknowledge what I've given you.

Yes it is only a theory and it is wrong.
 
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AFrazier

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Preparation of the passover — The day of preparation during passover week. Not hard. And not indicative of a specific date, only of a specific day. It was Friday of passover week.

Before the passover — The context allows that this statement refers to prior to going in to eat. It is not definitive, as even Johanine advocates will admit.

Wanted to eat the passover — Chagigah. It was also referred to as the passover. It was offered on the 15th.

Those are my answers to your John passages. See how that works? You provide a scripture, I acknowledge it, and I give you an answer to it.
 
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AFrazier

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The 14th is what I said. Remember the 14th begins after sunset on the 13th.
And this is why I don't want you playing games with wiggle room.

I have to say that I'm honestly amazed that someone who acts all Hebrew, like you know all about Jewish custom, language, etc., would actually hold to the erroneous belief that the gospels are portraying a passover lamb being sacrificed at night.

I personally think that that is just something you have concocted in your mind to make your erroneous interpretation work for you. But there isn't a history book, scripture, or bit of rabbinic literature out there that supports anything other than the lamb being slain on the afternoon of the 14th. And it's an insult to your own intelligence to continue to maintain that position when we both know that you know it's incorrect.
 
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Yeshua HaDerekh

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Preparation of the passover — The day of preparation during passover week. Not hard. And not indicative of a specific date, only of a specific day. It was Friday of passover week.

Before the passover — The context allows that this statement refers to prior to going in to eat. It is not definitive, as even Johanine advocates will admit.

Wanted to eat the passover — Chagigah. It was also referred to as the passover. It was offered on the 15th.

Those are my answers to your John passages. See how that works? You provide a scripture, I acknowledge it, and I give you an answer to it.

the day of preparation...of the Passover...of Shabbat...or BOTH in this case...yes Friday the 14th. I don't know why you keep pushing the chagigah. How does the prophecy of no bone to be broken and fulfillment in the NT narrative relate? It was a festival offering...Chag. IF He died on the 15th, why did they make an issue of His bones not being broken? Paul and John relate this too. “For these things were done that the scripture should be fulfilled, ‘Not one of His bones shall be broken’” ( John 19:36 ). You still have not answered any of my questions. How does your theory fulfill ANY prophetic scripture of the 14th, 15th or the 16th? Pesakh was the passing over of death to life.
 
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And this is why I don't want you playing games with wiggle room.

I have to say that I'm honestly amazed that someone who acts all Hebrew, like you know all about Jewish custom, language, etc., would actually hold to the erroneous belief that the gospels are portraying a passover lamb being sacrificed at night.

I personally think that that is just something you have concocted in your mind to make your erroneous interpretation work for you. But there isn't a history book, scripture, or bit of rabbinic literature out there that supports anything other than the lamb being slain on the afternoon of the 14th. And it's an insult to your own intelligence to continue to maintain that position when we both know that you know it's incorrect.

LOL, I never said the lamb was sacrificed at night. Show me where I said that. You are the one playing games. Your problem is the Greek word "prote". You can't even see the problem staring you right in the face!
 
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AFrazier

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the day of preparation...of the Passover...of Shabbat...or BOTH in this case...yes Friday the 14th. I don't know why you keep pushing the chagigah. How does the prophecy of no bone to be broken and fulfillment in the NT narrative relate? It was a festival offering...Chag. IF He died on the 15th, why did they make an issue of His bones not being broken? Paul and John relate this too. “For these things were done that the scripture should be fulfilled, ‘Not one of His bones shall be broken’” ( John 19:36 ). You still have not answered any of my questions. How does your theory fulfill ANY prophetic scripture of the 14th, 15th or the 16th? Pesakh was the passing over of death to life.
You pointed it out yourself. “For these things were done that the scripture should be fulfilled, ‘Not one of His bones shall be broken’” ( John 19:36 ) I've often mused about the fact that given a conspicuous opportunity to point out a parallel between Jesus and the passover, John ignored the similarity altogether and pointed instead to a scripture of prophecy.

Psalm 34:20 — He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.

Prophecy fulfilled.

I "keep pushing the chagigah" because if a person is objective about the scriptures, there is an obvious contradiction that needs to be resolved. The Synoptic gospels say that Jesus ate the passover at the last supper, which necessarily means that the last supper was on the 14th. But John relates how the priests were trying to avoid defilement, because they wanted to eat the passover, which also indicates that the day of the crucifixion was the 14th. Both can't be true.
That leaves only four explanations. Either the Synoptics are correct and John is wrong, John is correct and the Synoptics are wrong, either of which leaves us with a contradiction (which I reject), else the Synoptics somehow harmonize with John, or John somehow harmonizes with the Synoptics.
As for the Synoptics harmonizing with John, it is simply impossible. The afternoon preceding the last supper was the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was slain. There is no way to interpret that differently than that it was the 14th. I've thought of every scenario I can, had these arguments with people like you to see what sort of things they would come with ... it's just not possible. There is no way to conclude anything other than a 14th last supper in the Synoptics. It can't be done.
So if the first two options result in a contradiction, which I do not accept, and the third option is impossible, that only leaves the option of harmonizing John with the Synoptics. And this is very easily done. John makes only three suspect statements, and all three have viable answers that cause his gospel to harmonize with the other three rather than contradict them.
Ergo, in the interest of gospel harmony, the priests were desiring to eat the chagigah, also called the passover.
All other solutions leave us with a contradiction.

As a matter of hermeneutics, we know from all three of the other gospels that Jesus was crucified on the day of preparation. From all four gospels, we know that he was crucified during the passover holiday. And from the Synoptics, we know that he ate the passover at the last supper.
Therefore, the "preparation of the passover" is not a term synonymous with the eve of the passover. Nor does it say that it was the preparation for the passover. It was simply the day of preparation during passover, or Friday of passover week.
Any reasonable person can see the correlation. There are, in fact, a number of study Bibles available on the market that give this very same interpretation.

Concerning your questions of fulfilled prophecy ... you seem to be under the impression that everything had to happen in a specific way, that Jesus had to somehow mimic the rituals to the letter. And I have only this to say about it: They didn't put a piece of Jesus in a sheaf and wave him around on Sunday. They didn't roast him on Friday. His blood wasn't drained into a bowl and poured on the altar. He wasn't killed in the temple.
That he died so death would pass us over is fulfillment enough. If you insist that the ritualistic processes had to be carried out to the letter, then I declare to you that Jesus didn't fulfill his passover duty at all. There are simply too many aspects of the passover ritual that Jesus didn't fulfill according to the ritualistic specifics.

Nevertheless, I've said this before, and I'll say it again ... theology does not dictate chronology. Relative to chronology, it doesn't matter what spiritual purposes Jesus was meant to serve. The gospels still say that he died on the 15th. And that is the part you are refusing to see.
 
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AFrazier

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it is not the Bible you need to black out
Since the "you're wrong" statement I was responding to there was one of your responses to a post of nothing but pure scripture, my response in this instance stands. I quoted scripture and said nothing else. You declared that I was wrong. It's the Bible you were rejecting.
 
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LOL, I never said the lamb was sacrificed at night. Show me where I said that. You are the one playing games. Your problem is the Greek word "prote". You can't even see the problem staring you right in the face!
The reason you refused to answer my question directly before is that acknowledging the afternoon preceding the last supper as the 14th proves me right and proves you wrong. And so you'll only answer with, "The lamb is killed on the 14th."

Post 350 – The Passover is killed on the 14th
Post359 – Again for the 1000th time, the lamb was killed ON THE 14th!
Post362 – I told you. the 14th is when the lamb was killed

And then you tried to keep the information separated.

Post 370 – The 14th is what I said. Remember the 14th begins after sunset on the 13th.

Through your avoidance and deflection, you are saying that the lamb was killed on the 14th, but that the 14th was the next day, even though the scriptures presented said that the afternoon preceding the last supper was the day when the passover was slain.

So either you are saying that they ate the passover at the beginning of the 14th, when it became the 14th at sunset on the 13th, requiring the passover to be slain after sunset, since it can't be killed on the 13th. Else, you are saying that the afternoon leading up to the last supper was not the 14th, even though scripture says in two separate instances that it was, in fact, the day when the passover was slain, which you yourself have acknowledged was done on the 14th.

I'm not having a problem with any Greek words. I'm having a problem with someone who refuses to acknowledge a simple pair of passages.

From my view, your argument is similar to us arguing where Jesus was crucified. I would say that he was crucified outside of the city at Golgotha. And then you would argue that I'm wrong, despite black and white scripture, because your theology says that the lamb had to be slain in the temple. You therefore refuse to acknowledge the plain scripture saying he was led out of town and crucified at the place of the skull.

That's how stupid this argument is to me. What I've been saying for pages and pages is right there in black and white. On the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, the disciples came to Jesus and asked where he wanted them to prepare so he could keep the passover. This was before the last supper, and it was the 14th. Any monkey can see it. Why we're still discussing this at all is a complete enigma to me. I can't fathom the level of stubbornness it has to require to be so willful. I seriously don't want to talk about this anymore.
 
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