Dave-W

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But when Jesus warned us against the teachings of the Pharisees, that probably closed the deal He isn't.
But WHICH Pharisees? Hillel's? Shammai's?

One group griped about everything He did or said. The other warned Him of Herod coming to arrest Him.
 
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icxn

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If an American slave-owner loved his slaves in the same was as the Hebrews were supposed to love theirs, would you still have objected to the former owning slaves?
I would have objected to keeping them contrary to their wishes.
 
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Barney2.0

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it seems strange that the biblical god could not just plain say that slavery in any guise was wrong when it had no problem in telling people that it was wrong to eat certain marine animals, wrong to wear clothes of mixed fabrics or wrong, under pain of death, to do something as mundane as collecting wood on a particular day.
When you look at the biblical god's instructions on the treatment of slaves it makes you wonder. It considers slaves to be the property of the slaver. Considering another human being to be your property is totally repugnant. Beating your slaves is totally repugnant. Even more repugnant is if the slave dies as a result of a beating the slaver has an escape clause to avoid punishment. Taking possession of the slave's children is repugnant. Tagging a slave's ears to show he is your possession and a slave for life is repugnant.
Funny how a supposedly all-powerful all-knowing being didn't seem to realize just how repugnant it really was!
If God didn’t know slavery was repugnant then slavery wouldn’t have ended globally. The Biblical God couldn’t declare slavery as wrong under punishment of death regarding the context of the time of revelation as to many people just wouldn’t be able to cope that slavery would now be banned. Minor cultural things can be changed by God, however God can’t declare something like slavery which had a big effect on the lives of Israelites as repugnant as it would just be to big a change for that specific time. Are you seriously comparing the Israelite dietary laws and the Sabbath law to something as big as slavery?
 
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icxn

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Hey some slaves moved in next door. Lets bring them a bundt cake.
If I were you (I'm speaking about myself here), I would be more worried about my slavery to haughtiness and gluttony, both of which alienate me from God.
 
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Dave-W

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I believe Jesus was what the Pharisees should have been and were meant to be while not literally being a Pharisee.
What does that even mean? "Not literally being a Pharisee?"
 
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Brother Billy

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I would have objected to keeping them contrary to their wishes.

I don't think that many slaves would voluntarily agree to become the permanent property of another person. However even if they did, don't you think it is immoral for a slave-owner to accept such an offer? This would be taking an extreme advantage of someone in a desperate situation, don't you think? It would be much more moral to offer that person a job instead.
 
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Brother Billy

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What many fail to realize is that it is anachronistic to put your moral values as a standard for stuff in the past and compare it with American slavery (why else people would ask those questions)? Folks failed to realize slavery was a voluntary economic system when stuff like capitalism didn't exist and the economic situations were mostly based on survival. Regarding people from other nations who became slaves, what else should they have done with them? Kill them? If that would have happened you would had complained about genocide because you think people interacted like it was the 21st century.

Do you really think that when the Hebrews attacked an enemy city as described in Deuteronomy 20:10-18, that when the city fell, the Hebrews said "okay folks, who wants to be a slave?"
 
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icxn

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I don't think that many slaves would voluntarily agree to become the permanent property of another person. However even if they did, don't you think it is immoral for a slave-owner to accept such an offer? This would be taking an extreme advantage of someone in a desperate situation, don't you think? It would be much more moral to offer that person a job instead.
Which is exactly how I perceive 'christian slavery,' more of an employer-employee relationship.
 
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durangodawood

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If I were you (I'm speaking about myself here), I would be more worried about my slavery to haughtiness and gluttony, both of which alienate me from God.
Yes. Fortunately I live in a time and place where I dont need to worry about chattel slavery personally. And my own habits are literally my worst enemy. But thats not really the point here.
 
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durangodawood

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What many fail to realize is that it is anachronistic to put your moral values as a standard for stuff in the past....
Actually, I agree. This is why you see an evolving standard of morality on display in the Bible (and everywhere else) rather than a fixed standard.
 
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Dave-W

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Jesus was not a member of the Pharisee party.
"party" means faction or sect. His teaching put Him firmly in that sect.

But he was NOT a graduate of either of the main schools of Pharisees. (as far as we know) But is possible that He discussed with the 2 founders, Hillel and Shammai, when He was in the temple at age 12. They would have been in their 90s.
 
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Barney2.0

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"party" means faction or sect. His teaching put Him firmly in that sect.

But he was NOT a graduate of either of the main schools of Pharisees. (as far as we know) But is possible that He discussed with the 2 founders, Hillel and Shammai, when He was in the temple at age 12. They would have been in their 90s.
Jesus did not agree with all the teachings of the Pharisees, furthermore he wasn’t an official member of the Pharisee party.
 
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Dave-W

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Jesus did not agree with all the teachings of the Pharisees, furthermore he wasn’t an official member of the Pharisee party.
He did not agree with the Shammai Pharisees, but most of what He taught was close to Hillel Pharisee teaching.

There was no "official" membership.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Just think about your answer for a moment. You're saying that god had a particular goal in mind (i.e. end slavery), however he couldn't achieve this goal because it was too difficult given the economic dynamics at the time.

I was merely explaining historically how slavery arose and how it ended - it was economics, not moral philosophy. I'm not saying that God had the aim of abolishing slavery. His aim was much higher than that - the redemption of mankind from sin. Toward that end He condescended to work with people where they were.

If humans were so backwardly moral in those days, how was it possible for non-Christian countries to ban slavery? Examples: - During the 6th century BC, debt slavery was abolished in Athens - During the 3rd century BC, the slave trade was abolished in India - In 221-206 BC, the Qin Dynasty abolished slavery - In 9-12AD, the Xin Dynasty abolished slavery

Slavery did not exist in antiquity because people were morally backward. It existed because they were economically backward. Athens may have abolished debt slavery, but what propped up ancient Athens economically were the mines Laurion, where slaves provided the muscle power. Abolishing the slave trade is not the same thing as abolishing slavery itself. China has abolished and reinstated slavery an number of times in history, most recently abolishing it 1910. This was possible because like Europe, China had developed an economic system that was more efficient than slavery, indeed similar to medieval European feudalism, not because slavery was regarded as immoral.
 
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timewerx

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But WHICH Pharisees? Hillel's? Shammai's?

One group griped about everything He did or said. The other warned Him of Herod coming to arrest Him.

There are many good Pharisees in the Bible and Jesus didn't actually warn his disciples against the Pharisees but their teachings only.

The flexibility of Hillel's theology seems more agreeable with Christ's teachings so the bad teaching must be the Torah which both Hillel and Shammai taught. Christ's warning of bad doctrines seem to point towards the Torah.

Of very curious note is that Saul / Paul came from Hillel School, under the wing of Gamaliel. Yet, Paul bitterly and severely persecuted Christians.

Don't get me wrong that I'm trying to connect Paul's bitter oppression of the Christians to the Hillel School.

I don't think Hillel Pharisee would support such evil actions. I think Paul is operating with another authority or power that is not Pharisee during those times. Quite possibly from the Roman empire. Paul is a Roman citizen after all.

The Roman Catholic Orthodox drew much from Paul's unique teachings not found in the Gospels. Higlights the strong Roman Empire involvement in the creation of the Orthodox religion and Canon Bible ever since Paul began oppressing Christians.

It's also possible that the Christ is warning against both the Torah which both schools of Pharisee teaches and against Paul who claims to be a Pharisee but may be a Roman troublemaker with intentions to derail the Christian movement.
 
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Par5

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If God didn’t know slavery was repugnant then slavery wouldn’t have ended globally. The Biblical God couldn’t declare slavery as wrong under punishment of death regarding the context of the time of revelation as to many people just wouldn’t be able to cope that slavery would now be banned. Minor cultural things can be changed by God, however God can’t declare something like slavery which had a big effect in he lives of Israelites as repugnant as it would just be to big a change for that specific time. Are you seriously comparing the Israelite dietary laws and the Sabbath law to something as big as slavery?
Don't be silly. I am not saying that laws about such mundane things as diet, what to wear, and when not to work are on a par with slavery. Slavery is an abomination, to use a word favoured in the bible, although the law regarding the Sabbath not so mundane because to break it would mean you could be stoned to death.
Even if I was to accept, which I don't, that the biblical god did not put a stop to slavery because people could not cope with such a sudden change, why didn't he, when he laid down instructions on having slaves, tell the people not to beat their slaves and why did he give the slave owners a way to escape punishment if one of their slaves died as a result of a beating? Why did he not tell them not to take ownership of a slaves children and not to tag the ears of the slaves like a farmer tags his animals in order to show ownership?
It strikes me that the biblical god is more concerned about his own ego by ensuring that he is worshipped in a way that he finds pleasing, hence the slaughter of people that worship other gods or who don't worship him to his liking.
The bible reports the biblical god as saying that certain things were an abomination to him. It would appear that slavery wasn't one of those things.
 
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Dave-W

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Of very curious note is that Saul / Paul came from Hillel School, under the wing of Gamaliel. Yet, Paul bitterly and severely persecuted Christians.
Indeed. Gamaliel was Hillel's grandson. He apparently sent some of his students to warn Jesus of Herod's scheme, and in Acts he refused to kill the Apostles that had been arrested. I think Paul was incensed at his mentor's "weakness" on the Jesus cult, so he did a HUGE social no-no and went to the OTHER guys (Sadducean High priest) to get arrest warrants for Damascus. Gamaliel as president of the Sanhedrin could just as easily issued them.
 
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Dave-W

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s so the bad teaching must be the Torah which both Hillel and Shammai taught. Christ's warning of bad doctrines seem to point towards the Torah.
Not really. It was against the extras and add-ons that both Shammai and Hillel added to the Torah. (Oral tradition)
 
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