Do you believe Christmas is pagan?

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

According to scripture and science, Jesus should have been born in the vicinity of June. Mary was visited by Gabrielle in the sixth month. An average gestation period for a first pregnancy is about forty weeks, and variation from this is in a very low percentile. Forty weeks from the sixth Jewish month of the year would put his birth right around late May or sometime in June, depending on precisely when in the sixth month Mary conceived, and whether the birth was timely, early, or late.

6th month in that passage does not have anything to do with a calendar...it was the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy with John. If the angel came to Mary on the 6th month and Elizabeth was already pregnant for 6 months, then John was conceived in the month of nisan.

 

[HTacianas]

Because if you are a Christian, you follow Christ right?

If He didn't even celebrate His birthday, why is it a commercial holiday? If the Hebrews didn't either, then there is historical precedence contrary to a commercialized overcelebrated holiday.

The Most High God explicitly gave 7 Holy Days (holidays) for His people to follow; Christmas wasn't one of them. It is a tradition of men, and also rich in paganism and mystery religion.

The bible is a "tradition of men". Why should we bother with it?

 

[Call me Nic]

Our only examples of people celebrating birthdays from the bible is by pagans, if we were to keep/celebrate the anniversary of one's birth the Apostles would have told us to. Thus we can conclude that it's origins are not of God but rooted in paganism, from such traditions we are to removes ourselves. Making it a sin to keep.

If you need the verses for each of the points I made they are in the original post in this thread.

How about these verses, Stephen?

Romans 14:4-7 "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself."

If I esteem the day of Christmas unto the Lord, as to esteem one day above another, that is well within my Christian liberty to do so. If you esteem no day above another, you esteem none other day above another unto the Lord, and that is well within your Christian liberty to do so. Brother Stephen, if you were to not celebrate Christmas with your family in your home, and I was a guest in your home, I would not celebrate it alongside you, because I am not to be a stumbling block unto my brother in Christ, just because I am persuaded by my liberty to celebrate such a day. If you were a guest in my house, and we celebrated Christmas unto the Lord, you would be obligated to celebrate alongside my family so as not to serve as a stumbling block to us, because we are not to use our Christian liberty against another brother in Christ.

If you argue against a fellow brother, that they should esteem Christmas as nothing to be celebrated, when they are persuaded in their mind to do so, you are adding bondage unto them that is not of Christ.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

Is there something in the Bible about the "fullness of the doctrine"?

Yes brother, here are three of the most prominent places that speak of it.
Fully known the Doctrine, continue in things learned(2 Tim 3:10, 14-15)
Fully preached the Gospel of Christ(Romans 15:19,29)
Declared all the counsel of God(Acts 20:26-28)

They taught the full doctrine and all the traditions of Christ, leaving out nothing. If they did not speak of it, or say we are to do it(concerning spiritual things) then we have no basis to.

 

[Albion]

Yes, it (Christmas) IS a tradition of men, and there is nothing wrong with that. The role of some traditions is another matter, but a date set aside for making a special commemoration of the Saviors birth is not in that category. Not any moreso than the hundreds of other innocuous traditions that characterize the churches everyone here attends.

 

[AnnaDeborah]

We do not HAVE to celebrate Christ's birth on any specific day, but I don't believe there is anything wrong with doing so if you want to, as long as the celebration is in keeping with the Christian life. So it's more how you celebrate than if you celebrate. 25th December is a day that the Lord has made, just as He made every other day of the year - I don't have a problem with people not celebrating His birth on it, but I find it hard to understand why some Christians call people 'evil' or 'unChristian' for so doing. Inviting the needy in for a meal, telling them how much God loves them and how much they need Him...why would anyone not want to use these opportunities?!

I hear a lot of Christians objecting to Christmas because it 'glorifies commercialism and encourages overspending, gluttony and drunkenness' but there is no law that says you have to spend lots of money and buy things you don't need or eat and drink too much!

Our church has an amazing opportunity to share the story of Jesus' birth and the reason He came with every primary school child in the town. We have a similar opportunity at Easter. This is because the curriculum includes teaching on the 'spiritual aspects' of these seasons. If we just turned up to a school and said 'please send your children into our church for a couple of hours so we can teach them about the Bible' at some random time of year, we wouldn't get very far! But because it's in the curriculum, schools actually ASK the church for help! And the children do remember - ones who come back a second year running remember what they heard the previous year and can ask and answer questions. So many opportunities to share!

 

[98cwitr]

There are many Christians that think its pagan, and that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December. I always did find Christmas weird as a kid, but I am not a person who really is that knowledgeable about it.

Some say its not pagan and that Jesus was born in the 25. Some say it is and that Jesus was probably born before December even happened.

I've seen a snapshot of both sides of the argument so far. I am undecided, and I'll just choose to stick with the Bible and not celebrate since I don't know what Christmas really is.

yep, just a quick look at history confirms that it is rooted in pagan ritual calendar and timeline.

 

[Albion]

Talk about a "quick look at history" being sufficient for anyone to know what he needs to know before making a decision about this controversy should instantly set off warning signs.

 

[Kaon]

The bible is a "tradition of men". Why should we bother with it?

The bible canon may be, but the Word of God is a living entity, and the Most High God Himself promised to write His Word on our hearts.

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

.

 

[HTacianas]

The bible canon may be, but the Word of God is a living entity, and the Most High God Himself promised to write His Word on our hearts.

Without the canon you would not know that.

 

[Kaon]

Without the canon you would not know that.

Of course you would, because the Most High God Himself is the one doing it - not the canon.

He can fully educate anyone, including people not exposed to Him through canonicity. We are supposed to be His images anyway, and His New Covenant is such that He will write the Word of God on our hearts so that we won't have to ask our neighbors about Him. The canon is a compilation of texts created by other men on behalf of men. The Word of God is a Living entity.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

How about these verses, Stephen?

Romans 14:4-7 "Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself."

If I esteem the day of Christmas unto the Lord, as to esteem one day above another, that is well within my Christian liberty to do so. If you esteem no day above another, you esteem none other day above another unto the Lord, and that is well within your Christian liberty to do so. Brother Stephen, if you were to not celebrate Christmas with your family in your home, and I was a guest in your home, I would not celebrate it alongside you, because I am not to be a stumbling block unto my brother in Christ, just because I am persuaded by my liberty to celebrate such a day. If you were a guest in my house, and we celebrated Christmas unto the Lord, you would be obligated to celebrate alongside my family so as not to serve as a stumbling block to us, because we are not to use our Christian liberty against another brother in Christ.

If you argue against a fellow brother, that they should esteem Christmas as nothing to be celebrated, when they are persuaded in their mind to do so, you are adding bondage unto them that is not of Christ.

Brother,
That verse is speaking of food and men who limit what they can eat on certain days. Here is short study on it and a link to a much longer study not written by myself.

"Romans 14:5-6
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


Some people try to use these verses to say that since Paul said, both the man who esteemeth one day above another and the man who esteemeth every day alike, to say that what days we keep have no more significance except to those who believe it remains.

But when we look at these verses in context we see that Paul is speaking of only two things: 1. Weaker and stronger brethren 2. What foods are clean and how they are made clean.


It is in the light of the surrounding verses that we see what Paul is speaking of in verses 5-6. He is speaking not of the Sabbath day, or of Christians being able to keep any pagan holiday or custom they wish to, but of people who are weak in the faith and decide in their hearts that the Lord does not want them to eat certain things on certain days. There are many studies on these two verses that can be found online that show that what Paul was speaking of here was not the Sabbath day or being allowed to keep Pagan customs, but instead of those who chose to limit what they could eat on certain days.


While I do not agree with this Church's(Seventh Day Adventists) views on the translation of the Greek word used for unclean in romans 14

2839. Koinos

Translated as Unclean but could also mean: common, defiled, unclean, unholy.


I do agree with most of what they have to say about Romans 14:5-6 and they provide an excellent commentary/Exegesis on it here: https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Onedaybetter.pdf"

We are to judge all things by the spirit(Matt 7:1-3) Because all will be Judged by the word of God in the Last day. So also are Christ followers to judge all things by the word of God and by the same word will they be judged(1 Cor 2:15, 6:2-5).

A man who chooses to adopt a Pagan Holiday/Custom as the Lord's has everything to do with his fellow brethren, since we are to correct those who fall away from God's teachings and remove ourselves from them if they do not listen(2 Thess 3:4-6; Galatians 6:1-2; 1 Timothy 5:20-22; Romans 16:17-18). By choosing to keep ungodly traditions they break the commandment instituted by God(2 Cor 6:14-17, Eph 5:11-12) that we are to be separate from the world and it's customs/traditions(1 John 2:15-17,3:1,4:4-8,16, John 17:1-26[Especially 12-19], 15:16-27) keeping only the things of the Spirit.

I speak only to correct wrong as we are commanded to do. If a person adopts ungodly practices we are to tell that person how and why they are wrong so that they may turn from their evil ways and back to righteousness.

 

[StephenDiscipleofYHWH]

That's a bit of circular reasoning, don't you think? I only use the 2nd edition of the KJV because the first edition is too difficult to read, but won't give ground to those who think the 2nd edition of the KJV is too hard to read...and only accept 66 books because I think they are true?

Both the 1611 and the original KJV are accurate, those that followed after the second edition are not nearly as true to the Greek as the first two.

I accept the 66 books because their sources are proven to be true and because nothing within itself disagrees with another part of itself(as would be the case if you introduce any of the other books).

 

[lsume]

There are many Christians that think its pagan, and that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December. I always did find Christmas weird as a kid, but I am not a person who really is that knowledgeable about it.

Some say its not pagan and that Jesus was born in the 25. Some say it is and that Jesus was probably born before December even happened.

I've seen a snapshot of both sides of the argument so far. I am undecided, and I'll just choose to stick with the Bible and not celebrate since I don't know what Christmas really is.

The Word of God covers the question I Pray.

Gal.4 Verses 9 to 11

1. 
   [9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
   [10] Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
   [11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

 

[Call me Nic]

Brother,
That verse is speaking of food and men who limit what they can eat on certain days. Here is short study on it and a link to a much longer study not written by myself.

"Romans 14:5-6
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.


Some people try to use these verses to say that since Paul said, both the man who esteemeth one day above another and the man who esteemeth every day alike, to say that what days we keep have no more significance except to those who believe it remains.

But when we look at these verses in context we see that Paul is speaking of only two things: 1. Weaker and stronger brethren 2. What foods are clean and how they are made clean.


It is in the light of the surrounding verses that we see what Paul is speaking of in verses 5-6. He is speaking not of the Sabbath day, or of Christians being able to keep any pagan holiday or custom they wish to, but of people who are weak in the faith and decide in their hearts that the Lord does not want them to eat certain things on certain days. There are many studies on these two verses that can be found online that show that what Paul was speaking of here was not the Sabbath day or being allowed to keep Pagan customs, but instead of those who chose to limit what they could eat on certain days.


While I do not agree with this Church's(Seventh Day Adventists) views on the translation of the Greek word used for unclean in romans 14

2839. Koinos

Translated as Unclean but could also mean: common, defiled, unclean, unholy.


I do agree with most of what they have to say about Romans 14:5-6 and they provide an excellent commentary/Exegesis on it here: https://adventistbiblicalresearch.org/sites/default/files/pdf/Onedaybetter.pdf"

We are to judge all things by the spirit(Matt 7:1-3) Because all will be Judged by the word of God in the Last day. So also are Christ followers to judge all things by the word of God and by the same word will they be judged(1 Cor 2:15, 6:2-5).

A man who chooses to adopt a Pagan Holiday/Custom as the Lord's has everything to do with his fellow brethren, since we are to correct those who fall away from God's teachings and remove ourselves from them if they do not listen(2 Thess 3:4-6; Galatians 6:1-2; 1 Timothy 5:20-22; Romans 16:17-18). By choosing to keep ungodly traditions they break the commandment instituted by God(2 Cor 6:14-17, Eph 5:11-12) that we are to be separate from the world and it's customs/traditions(1 John 2:15-17,3:1,4:4-8,16, John 17:1-26[Especially 12-19], 15:16-27) keeping only the things of the Spirit.

I speak only to correct wrong as we are commanded to do. If a person adopts ungodly practices we are to tell that person how and why they are wrong so that they may turn from their evil ways and back to righteousness.

Your argument is against the paganism of a holiday in which I as a Christian do not celebrate, unless you are willing to say that celebrating the birth of Christ is paganism. I've already admitted that I choose (out of faith) to sanctify that day unto the Lord, to show thanks and gratitude unto God for the birth of his Son, that we are saved by him. I do not give into the grievous traditions of our culture, but instead choose to celebrate a day (whether accurately showing the birth of Christ or not) in order to esteem it unto the Lord. In my house, we honor God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ with this holiday, which is not sin. We do so in faith, believing that we are not condemned by God for doing such a thing.

 

[All4Christ]

Wow, looks like we are already at the “Is Christmas Pagan?” time of year!

Short answer: no. If you are concerned about the date...just celebrate on the Julian calendar like they used to (and like some of the Orthodox Church does)...January 7! You can celebrate Theophany (Epiphany) at the same time if you want. They used to celebrate the two together. Call it “The Nativity” as well, if you want to get away from the modern understanding of Christmas.

While some external Christmas traditions may have root in some pagan traditions (Christmas trees, etc), the feast day itself is not of pagan origin. If you are concerned about things having some kind of pagan background, make sure to find different names for the days of the week!

 

[~Anastasia~]

One of the likeliest dating methods of Dec 25 for the Nativity of Christ ...

There is an ancient pious custom that very holy people were often granted by God to die on the date of their conception. We celebrate the Annunciation made to the Virgin Mary on March 25 - calculated based on the date Christ was believed to be crucified based on the calendar and calculations for Passover at that time. Which would place His birth nine months later - December 25.

Instead of looking for pagan influence and thinking evil of early Christians, it's easy enough to find discussions made by early Christians that focus on glorifying and elevating the Lord Jesus Christ - which is more in line with what we would expect for people who for centuries were killed for their beliefs in Christianity. What possible worldly motive would have inspired so many martyrs to their faith? All of this was determined during that period of Church history - not some imagined oppression or greedy motive many wrongly attribute to the early Church.

 

[~Anastasia~]

They preached the fullness of the doctrine, how we live as Christians should be based on the words of God and the traditions of God. Anything concerning our spirit and living in the spirit should be founded on God's eternal word, not based on the traditions of men.

So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught, whether by word of mouth or by letter from us.

There was no "Bible" as we know it when the early Churches were founded. They taught everything in person - not by circulating a book. And recorded in what would become NT Scripture that we should hold to those teachings delivered as well as the written ones.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

What need to be established first is the existence of a feast celebrated by Pagans on December the 25th before the earliest mentions of Christians celebrating the Nativity of our Lord. Short of this, there is nothing but conjecture and in these discussions I regularly fail to see any semblance of proof offered for the claim that Christmas was definitively pagan in origin.

What we can admit is that it was a feast in the Liturgical year that came about quite late. I believe John Chrysostom gives us one of our first sermons for why we should celebrate the Lord's Nativity. So even if there was a pagan feast (which certainty wasn't called Christmas) why should we view it as the same feast in Christian guise instead of a counter to the pagan offering? Do pagans have the monopoly on certain times of the year? To some apparently they have exclusive right to certain days.