Do you believe Christmas is pagan?

JohnB445

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There are many Christians that think its pagan, and that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December. I always did find Christmas weird as a kid, but I am not a person who really is that knowledgeable about it.

Some say its not pagan and that Jesus was born in the 25. Some say it is and that Jesus was probably born before December even happened.

I've seen a snapshot of both sides of the argument so far. I am undecided, and I'll just choose to stick with the Bible and not celebrate since I don't know what Christmas really is.
 

Soyeong

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Hello,

I think the evidence points to Jesus being born on the Feast of Tabernacles, though it is derived rather than directly stated. In any case, it is far more important to observe to holy days that God commanded than to be concerned about whether to obey a human tradition. In Mark 7:6-13, Jesus criticized the Pharisees as being hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God in order to establish their own traditions, so it would be wise to avoid coming under the same criticism.
 
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Saucy

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No, Jesus wasn't born on December 25th. It's just yet another example of the Catholic church trying to combine a pagan festival and Christianize it to attract them. There's nothing about Christmas that's Christian. The tree, the lights, the yule log, etc, are all borrowed from other religions and pagan traditions.

Even the story of the Nativity used at Christmas isn't accurate with scriptures. The Wise Men were not present at His birth. He was probably around two years old by the time they found him. It's estimated because it was the same time Herod ordered babies 2 and under to be slaughtered.
 
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HTacianas

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There are many Christians that think its pagan, and that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December. I always did find Christmas weird as a kid, but I am not a person who really is that knowledgeable about it.

Some say its not pagan and that Jesus was born in the 25. Some say it is and that Jesus was probably born before December even happened.

I've seen a snapshot of both sides of the argument so far. I am undecided, and I'll just choose to stick with the Bible and not celebrate since I don't know what Christmas really is.

By way of analogy, during the invasion of Iraq, after the Iraqi army had been defeated and Saddam Hussein went into hiding, General Tommy Franks and some of his associates sat in Saddam's palace, on his sofa, and smoked cigars. It was one of those gratuitous symbols of victory over an enemy. Several pictures were taken of it.

Should someone look at one of those pictures, would they mistake Tommy Franks for Saddam Hussein? After all, who else would sit on the sofa in the palace smoking a cigar other than Saddam Hussein?

Christmas is the same. If you walk up to ten people on the street and ask them what Christmas is there is a very good chance that all ten of them will answer that it is Jesus' birthday. No one remembers any of the myriad pagan festivals of the winter solstice. Christmas is "captured territory".

The writer to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 15:25 said:

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet

Celebrate Christmas. It is the birth of Jesus. Ask anybody.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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There are many Christians that think its pagan, and that Jesus wasn't born on the 25th of December. I always did find Christmas weird as a kid, but I am not a person who really is that knowledgeable about it.

Some say its not pagan and that Jesus was born in the 25. Some say it is and that Jesus was probably born before December even happened.

I've seen a snapshot of both sides of the argument so far. I am undecided, and I'll just choose to stick with the Bible and not celebrate since I don't know what Christmas really is.
I think it originated as a pagan festival, but the occasion was turned into a Christian celebration of the birth of Christ when the universal Church replaced pagan worship in the Western world.

Of course, those who love Christ still celebrate the birth of Christ at Christmas, but the neo-pagans of our Western societies have gone back to taking the Christ out of Christmas and are treating it as a neo-pagan festival with the Christmas tree and the jolly fella in the red suit.

Just for information: Purpose built architecturally designed places of worship originate from paganism, because the Early Church in the first century AD did not meet in those sorts of buildings. The only purpose-designed places of worship in those days were the pagan temples, Jewish Temple (up until AD70), and Jewish synagogues. Jewish Christians worshiped in the Temple and synagogues until they were kicked out, but their closest fellowship was in private homes.
 
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TuxAme

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No, it's not pagan; pagans would make the same claim no matter what day the Church opted to celebrate Christmas on.

There are some ECFs who favor the December 25th dating (Hippolytus of Rome being one of them), but Christmas was celebrated at different times by different individual churches (or parishes) for a very long time.
 
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John 12:25

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Over the years I just gradually fell out of celebrating Christmas. It is a holiday of mass consumerism, greed, gluttony, drunkenness, and things of that sort. People have actually been stampeded to death by mass consumers during the holiday season after opening the doors up in the morning at big box stores. What a way to start off the work day, being trampled to death by mass consumers fixated on saving a few bucks off a smart TV they don’t even need. Nothing Christ-like at all about this holiday.

Sure it was fun when I was a little kid but now I know better. Even back then I thought to myself, seems like the fat jolly weirdo in the red suit is given more prestige than Jesus. Nowhere in the Bible does it say what day He was born nor does it say to celebrate it. Most of these holidays originated out of ancient Egypt and are traditions of man which pay homage to false gods.

I have heard all these big retail corporations make about half of their revenue during the holidays. These corporations pay the people who work in their stores lowly dirt wages despite being able to afford to pay them more. They also over-work them too. The stores are also short staffed for the volume of business they get and how busy they are. All about that almighty dollar. No thanks, I am not going to partake in that garbage and award wealthy swindlers with my money.

I stopped accepting gifts from people a while back because I stopped buying them for people, so I don’t think it’s right to receive and not give. But my days of running the rat race and mass consumption are over. I’m not going to participate in making these greedy corporations rich and boosting their precious 4th quarter numbers. I see how they treat their workers like dirt, and short staff the stores.
 
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TCassidy

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WHAT ABOUT DECEMBER 25th? COULD JESUS HAVE BEEN BORN ON "CHRISTMAS" DAY?

DON'T JUST REJECT IT, BUT FIRST, THINK ABOUT IT.

Today it is popular for preachers and teachers to dispel the "myths" of Christmas. It makes for great sensationalism but not for great reason or accuracy. There are several aspects of the traditional Christmas story that are under fire. While no one can positively set the exact time and scene of the first Christmas there is no biblical necessity for rejecting the majority of our traditional understandings of these events.

I. Jesus could easily have been born on December 25.

The traditional date of December 25 for Christmas may well be in the proper time frame even if it is not perfectly correct. It has been the date commemorated for almost 1800 years.

Edersheim wrote, "There is no adequate reason for questioning the historical accuracy of this date. The objections generally made rest on grounds which seem to me historically untenable."

"The subject has been fully discussed in an article by Cassel in Herzog's Real. Enc. xvii. pp.588-594. But a curious piece of evidence comes to us from a Jewish source. In the addition to the Megillath Taanith (ed. Warsh. p. 20) the 9th Tebheth is marked as a fast day, and it is added, but the reason for this addition is not stated. Now, Jewish chronologists have fixed on that day as that of Christ's birth, and it is remarkable that, between the years of 500 and 816 A.D. the 25th December fell no less than twelve times on the 9th Tebheth. If the 9th Tebheth, 25th December, was regarded as the birthday of Christ we can understand the concealment about it."

II. The shepherds did stay in the fields in December.

"Equally so was the belief that He (the birth of Messiah) was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.' This Migdal Eder was not the watch-tower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for the temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover--that is in the month of February when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest." Edersheim.

III. The wise men came while Jesus was still an infant.

There are several time landmarks in the gospels by which we can ascertain the time of the wise men's visit to the infant Christ.

1. The taxing of the world by Caesar Augustus while Cyrenius was governor of Syria.

2. The death of Herod the Great.

3. The fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar.

4. Jesus's age at the beginning of his public ministry.

Any time setting for the visit of the magi must be consistent with all four of these dates.

Caesar Augustus reigned from 31 BC until 14 A.D. Cyrenius was governor of Syria in 8 BC and again in 7 AD. Augustus conducted censuses three times in Italy: 28 BC. 8 BC. and 14 AD. He taxed Gaul in 27 BC. Egypt was taxed every 14 years starting in 20 BC.

While we have no direct local records of such taxing in Palestine there is no reason not to believe that Caesar ordered the census and taxation of Palestine during the first governorship of Cyrenius. This helps to validate the general history of the account but is not specific enough to help us in the actual time placement of events.

Luke 3:1 tells us that John began his ministry in the fifteenth year of Tiberius Caesar. The same chapter v. 23 says that Jesus was baptized and began his public ministry when he "began to be about thirty years old." Tiberius came to the royal purple in 14 A.D. Working forward, his fifteenth year (counting the year of ascendancy as a year) would be A.D. 27. Subtracting the 30 years of Jesus's age brings us to 4 BC. Jesus must have been born between August of 5 BC and April of 4 BC (the month in which Herod died.)

Historically we know that Herod left Jerusalem a few months before he died so that February of 4 BC is the latest that the wise men could have found him in Jerusalem. Even if Jesus was born in late August of 5 BC he could not have been more than five months old when worshiped by the wise men.

In Luke 1:5 we see additional evidence for the December 25th date for Christ's birth.

John the Baptist's father was said to serve in the Temple and was of the course of Abia, one of the twenty-four classes or courses of priests according to 1 Chron 24.

Each course served for one week, twice a year. During the special sabbaths all of the courses served.

It was while he was serving in the Temple that the announcement of the birth of John was made to him. Elizabeth conceived after his course of duty in the Temple.

John was six months older then the Lord.

When did the course of Abiah serve? According to the Misna, from the third week to the fourth week of September in 31AD. So, if John was conceived in late September, he would have been born 9 months later, in late June. If Christ was six months younger, He would have been born in late December! The 25th would be about right.

Think About It! :)
 
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Original Happy Camper

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Are shepherds in the fields in December?

Answer NO, it is winter

So either the bible is wrong about the shepherds being in the field or Christ was not born in December.
 
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Saucy

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It's funny how you have all these major Christian holidays around the solstices and involved pagan traditions. Easter is another. The egg, bunny, etc are all symbols of the fertility goddess Ishtar. Ishtar=Easter.

The Feast of Annunciation, Halloween, Valentine's Day, Mardi Gras, May Day, Ash Wednesday, Lent, and others all have pagan roots, but were adopted by Christianity.
 
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MMDave3

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A friend of mine believes it is. She is part of the "Living Church of God", which I admittedly am not very familiar with. She doesn't celebrate it at all.

I am quite certain many aspects of modern Christmas are taken from pagan and other non-Christian sources. And I'm ok with that. There are no Christmas trees in the Bible. Or giving of gifts. Or Santa. But that doesn't change what the day is about - celebrating the birth of Christ, regardless of what day it actually happened on. Also, being with family and/or friends.
 
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MMDave3

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By way of analogy, during the invasion of Iraq, after the Iraqi army had been defeated and Saddam Hussein went into hiding, General Tommy Franks and some of his associates sat in Saddam's palace, on his sofa, and smoked cigars. It was one of those gratuitous symbols of victory over an enemy. Several pictures were taken of it.

Should someone look at one of those pictures, would they mistake Tommy Franks for Saddam Hussein? After all, who else would sit on the sofa in the palace smoking a cigar other than Saddam Hussein?

Christmas is the same. If you walk up to ten people on the street and ask them what Christmas is there is a very good chance that all ten of them will answer that it is Jesus' birthday. No one remembers any of the myriad pagan festivals of the winter solstice. Christmas is "captured territory".

The writer to the Corinthians at 1 Corinthians 15:25 said:

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet

Celebrate Christmas. It is the birth of Jesus. Ask anybody.
A perfect analogy. I wanted to make a very similar point, but you've already done a great job.
 
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Are shepherds in the fields in December?

Answer NO, it is winter

So either the bible is wrong about the shepherds being in the field or Christ was not born in December.
You obviously didn't read my post. Here it is again with the pertinent parts highlighted.

II. The shepherds did stay in the fields in December.

"Equally so was the belief that He (the birth of Messiah) was to be revealed from Migdal Eder, the 'tower of the flock.' This Migdal Eder was not the watch-tower for the ordinary flocks which pastured on the barren sheep ground beyond Bethlehem, but lay close to the town, on the road to Jerusalem. A passage in the Mishnah leads to the conclusion that the flocks, which pastured there, were destined for the temple-sacrifices, and, accordingly, that the shepherds, who watched over them, were not ordinary shepherds. The latter were under the ban of Rabbinism on account of their necessary isolation from religious ordinances, and their manner of life which rendered strict legal observance unlikely, if not impossible. The same Mishnic passage also leads us to infer that these flocks lay out all the year round, since they are spoken of as in the fields thirty days before the Passover--that is in the month of February when in Palestine the average rainfall is nearly greatest." Edersheim.
 
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Hank77

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According to other sources the Abijah priests served their first week rotation in June placing Jesus' birth during the Feast of Tabernacles. To me this makes much more sense. Every other major event, His death, His Resurrection, the giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost all coincide with a Jewish holy day or Feast. Why would His birth be any different. He came to 'dwell' with us.
 
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Check your sources carefully. There's a lot of pseudo-history with the goal of nothing more than smearing Catholicism. (Hislop isn't a reliable source - when you go looking for his sources - there aren't any. Much of it is made up.) And I'm not defending Catholicism as we have some deeply held differences.

"Easter" is an easily-seen example of what I'm talking about. The date of celebration has nothing whatsoever to do with pagan goddesses or the spring equinox. It is and has been calculated based on the dating of Passover, which is quite relevant, because Christ was sacrificed as our "Passover Lamb". Because the crucifixion was tied to Passover, so necessarily is His third-day Resurrection.

Peace to all.
 
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Dave-W

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This summary by a scholar of early church liturgy is the best I'm aware of, that's easily available on the net: Dating Christmas
Interesting article, but I was disappointed that the priestly cycle of service for division Abijah (John the Immerser's father) was left out of the calculation. Each division had 2 times in the Temple. aprox 6 months apart. Doing that calc puts Our Lord's birth either at Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles) or at Passover. Either would fit with the narrative that there was no room since everyone had to go to Jerusalem for both feasts, and with Rome's practicality of taking census taxes during major local feasts where everyone was together at the same time.
 
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Dave-W

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According to other sources the Abijah priests served their first week rotation in June
They had 2 cycles per year, about 6 months apart. So that would also support a date near Passover.
 
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