Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?

[The Gryphon]

Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?
Thursday, Sep 27th 2018

Chilling confessions of PoWs captured by the British have laid bare the brutality and excesses of ‘ordinary’ German soldiers in the Second World War.

A book of transcripts to be published in Germany next week reveals how the honour of its old army was lost amid the frenzy to be ‘perfect, pitiless Nazis’.

In the interrogation transcripts, the German soldiers speak of the ‘fun’ and ‘pure enjoyment’ of massacring innocent civilians and enemy troops.

If you dare read it all here> The 'perfect, pitiless, Nazi': Soldiers' interviews reveal how German troops driven by 'bloodlust' killed for fun | Daily Mail Online

 

[thecolorsblend]

Some very devout ones served in the wehrmacht on the Eastern Front during the invasion of the Soviet Union.

 

[Phronema]

So are we judging the civilians or the soldiers? The question in the titles implies the civilians, and the linked story states the soldiers.

I think it's important to remember there was no social media, or internet at the time. In addition, the media was controlled by the Nazi regime. The soldiers who had perpetrated the crimes mentioned likely wouldn't have come home and bragged about them to civilians. So, I doubt the average Christian in Germany en masse was even aware things like this were even happening.

I don't think we're in a place to judge the civilians as being Christian or not to be quite honest. We haven't experienced that, and I pray we never will.

Matthew 7 comes to mind...

 

[joshua 1 9]

Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?

There was a wave of repentance after the war when people realized the mistake they made in supporting Hitler.

 

[ewq1938]

Where were the Christians In Germany during WWII?

Uh, "in Germany".

 

[ewq1938]

It's like asking, "Where were the Christians in Israel during the Roman occupation of the middle east?"

 

[joshua 1 9]

So, I doubt the average Christian in Germany en masse was even aware things like this were even happening.

The allies that liberated the concentration camps were appalled at what they saw there. They went to the nearest city to march the citizens to the camp to show it them. On the way to the camp everyone is happy and laughing like they were going on the picnic. After they saw the camp there were devastated by what they saw. They had no idea what was going on at those camps.

 

[Phronema]

The allies that liberated the concentration camps were appalled at what they saw there. They went to the nearest city to march the citizens to the camp to show it them. On the way to the camp everyone is happy and laughing like they were going on the picnic. After they saw the camp there were devastated by what they saw. They had no idea what was going on at those camps.

It makes sense. Even if they knew the camps were there I'm betting they thought they were POW camps, and not death camps. Information didn't move back then unless it was via radio, and the Nazis controlled that.

I'm not making excuses for them. I just truly doubt the average Jane or Joe knew about it. In addition there were the Nuremburg trials which didn't identify civilians as being responsible either (aside from Nazi leadership).

As for the soldiers? I'm sure the Wehrmacht perpetrated some of the crimes as well. The SS wasn't big enough to accomplish the job on their own, and I've read books written by Heer soldiers who recollected being ordered to do things like that. I'll leave it at that.

 

[The Gryphon]

Some very devout ones served in the wehrmacht on the Eastern Front during the invasion of the Soviet Union.

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In that case perhaps you need to read the article but then that is up to you.

 

[Chesterton]

Two things about this seem strange to me. One, it's known that Himmler supported the use of gas chambers as an alternative to the mass shootings, because the mass killings done by shooting were starting to be bad for soldiers morale: they were getting sick of following the orders for so much senseless murder. Two, it seems very odd that POW's would admit to this to their captors. Any man in his right mind would want to portray himself as the opposite of that type of person.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Even if they knew the camps were there I'm betting they thought they were POW camps, and not death camps.

They were designed not to upset people. The gas chamber looked like a shower. They even used the same tile on the walls that they used in the Hebrew public bath houses. The gas came out of what looked like shower heads. So the people would not panic and try to make a run for it before they locked them in.

They say the person that picked up the dead bodies was a prisoner that was a drug addict. Could have been there was a lot of drug addiction at the time. Even Hitler was said to be taking a lot of questionable drugs.

 

[Phronema]

Two things about this seem strange to me. One, it's known that Himmler supported the use of gas chambers as an alternative to the mass shootings, because the mass killings done by shooting were starting to be bad for soldiers morale: they were getting sick of following the orders for so much senseless murder. Two, it seems very odd that POW's would admit to this to their captors. Any man in his right mind would want to portray himself as the opposite of that type of person.

A couple of the pictures listed in the linked story I recall as being associated with captured partisans which are civilians, but not in the traditional sense as they've made themselves a combatant by fighting for their countries' freedom. Not saying that makes it okay to kill them, but it is a bit different than massacring a village of non-combatants.

 

[The Gryphon]

So are we judging the civilians or the soldiers? The question in the titles implies the civilians, and the linked story states the soldiers.

I think it's important to remember there was no social media, or internet at the time. In addition, the media was controlled by the Nazi regime. The soldiers who had perpetrated the crimes mentioned likely wouldn't have come home and bragged about them to civilians. So, I doubt the average Christian in Germany en masse was even aware things like this were even happening.

I don't think we're in a place to judge the civilians as being Christian or not to be quite honest. We haven't experienced that, and I pray we never will.

Matthew 7 comes to mind...

I am not implying anything just posting about a very resent Sep 27th 2018 article that reports on the actions of the average German soldiers and not just the SS. The results were shocking and unsuspected.

Historians Soenke Neitzel and Harald Welzer have used the interrogations of 13,000 German military prisoners as the basis of Soldiers: Diaries Of Fighting, Killing and Dying – or Soldaten in German.

The 150,000 sides of transcripts, dating from 1940 to 1945, reveal how the Wehrmacht was little better than the S.S. in its outlook, the book concludes.

If you want to know all the details read the report as it is not fit to reproduce here. Warning it is GRAPHIC!

 

[The Gryphon]

Uh, "in Germany".

Perhaps they should have practiced there Christian Faith as Dietrich Bonhoeffer did.

 

[Chesterton]

A couple of the pictures listed in the linked story I recall as being associated with captured partisans which are civilians, but not in the traditional sense as they've made themselves a combatant by fighting for their countries' freedom. Not saying that makes it okay to kill them, but it is a bit different than massacring a village of non-combatants.

Agreed. There would be a distinction.

 

[The Gryphon]

It's like asking, "Where were the Christians in Israel during the Roman occupation of the middle east?"

Not really as the Christians in Israel during the Roman occupation were few in number and had no real influence. Combine the Christian Churches in Germany and the Catholic Church in Rome, Italy it makes a world of difference how the Axis Power arose and maintained control of Germany and Italy now does it not?

 

[Phronema]

I am not implying anything just posting about a very resent Sep 27th 2018 article that reports on the actions of the average German soldiers and not just the SS. The results were shocking and unsuspected.

Historians Soenke Neitzel and Harald Welzer have used the interrogations of 13,000 German military prisoners as the basis of Soldiers: Diaries Of Fighting, Killing and Dying – or Soldaten in German.

The 150,000 sides of transcripts, dating from 1940 to 1945, reveal how the Wehrmacht was little better than the S.S. in its outlook, the book concludes.

If you want to know all the details read the report as it is not fit to reproduce here. Warning it is GRAPHIC!

I agree that the Wehrmacht was involved, but there certainly was resistance from the Wehrmacht General Officers. Quite frankly it was to the point that some of them made an attempt on Hilter's life, and were unfortunately unsuccessful. It's also well documented that the Wehrmacht leadership didn't get along very well with Himmler or the SS either.

From the sources I've read the Wehrmacht was involved, but involuntarily so. I can't say with 100% confidence that every single soldier fighting for Germany was either involved in the crimes mentioned, nor that they were a brainwashed member of the party. I think most of the soldiers who fought for Germany were doing it because they loved their country, and not as Nazis. IMO, it was a terrible time, with absolutely heinous atrocities having been committed. War is terrible, and a result of our fallen world, and state. I pray it never happens again, and that we never forget how terrible it was.

 

[ewq1938]

Perhaps they should have practiced there Christian Faith as Dietrich Bonhoeffer did.

Or like Christ and his disciples did under Roman oppression.

 

[ewq1938]

Not really as the Christians in Israel during the Roman occupation were few in number and had no real influence. Combine the Christian Churches in Germany and the Catholic Church in Rome, Italy it makes a world of difference how the Axis Power arose and maintained control of Germany and Italy now does it not?

Any group of Christians trying to oppose the Nazi's would have been slaughtered. The allied forces had a hard enough time defeating the Nazi's.

 

[Phronema]

Any group of Christians trying to oppose the Nazi's would have been slaughtered. The allied forces had a hard enough time defeating the Nazi's.

Agreed. That said, I truly believe the average German equated Hitler to Napoleon, rather than some genocidal maniac. They just didn't know what was going on, so didn't know to try and stop him. Shoot even the allies didn't know until we got boots on the ground inside Germany, and we had the OSS as an intelligence agency along with MI6.