Revelation 12: what do the 3.5 years represent?

[claninja]

But Israel proper was always the church, even in the OT.

I agree. 70 weeks were determined specifically for Israel proper. And these 70 weeks were fulfilled 3.5 years after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension. Then the gospel went to the nations.

Christ was revealed to Israel by John the Baptist. Jesus' ministry lasted for 3.5 years until his death:
Daniel 9:27 (a) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,

Christ's death effectively put an end to the need for sacrifices and offerings
Daniel 9:27 (b) and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering

The final half of the week (3.5 years) was the woman being nourished: the gospel going specifically to Israel proper.

After this last week, the gospel went to the nations to graft them in.

 

[Dave L]

I agree. 70 weeks were determined specifically for Israel proper. And these 70 weeks were fulfilled 3.5 years after Jesus' death, resurrection, and ascension. Then the gospel went to the nations.

Christ was revealed to Israel by John the Baptist. Jesus' ministry lasted for 3.5 years until his death:
Daniel 9:27 (a) And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week,

Christ's death effectively put an end to the need for sacrifices and offerings
Daniel 9:27 (b) and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering

The final half of the week (3.5 years) was the woman being nourished: the gospel going specifically to Israel proper.

Israel proper was always the believers and not those after the flesh.

 

[claninja]

Israel proper was always the believers and not those after the flesh.

I agree, and yet the gospel did not go the gentiles until 3.5 years after Jesus death.

 

[Dave L]

I agree, and yet the gospel did not go the gentiles until 3.5 years after Jesus death.

It was 7 years after Pentecost.

 

[claninja]

It was 7 years after Pentecost.

Notice upon Stephen's death(around 3.5 years after Jesus' death), the church (true Israel) is greatly persecuted. However, before, during these 3.5 years, it had not seen great persection. Because of this persecution, the church is scattered throughout Judea and samaria and they preach the gospel.
Acts 8:1-4
And Saul approved of their killing him. On that day a great persecution broke out against the church in Jerusalem, and all except the apostles were scattered throughout Judea and Samaria. 2Godly men buried Stephen and mourned deeply for him. 3But Saul began to destroy the church. Going from house to house, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison. Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went.

Philip even preaches the gospel to an Ethiopian eunuch
Acts 8:27 So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian a eunuch

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Jesus was caught up to God and to His Throne, received his Kingdom and given authority - 2000 years ago.

Then in the end times, the 1260 days of the 7 years take place in Revelation 12:6, the first half of the seven years.

No, you have the timing of Jesus caught up to heaven wrong in relation to Israel being nourished the 1260 days. The 1260 days is end times. Jesus being caught up to heaven was first century.

firs century:
Revelation 12:5 Jesus caught up to heaven

End times:
Revelation 12:6 the 1260 days - end times, first half of the 7 years, the two witnesses time.
Revelation 12:7-9, the 7th trumpet sounds, the war in the (second) heaven - Satan and angels cast down to earth, Babylon is fallen is fallen.
Revelation 12:10, the Jews turn to Jesus, all Israel is saved, receive the gospel.
Revelation 12:14, the time times half time ~ the second half of the 7 years, the great tribulation as God dismantles Satan's kingdom of Babylon the Great.

Zech 14 shows the LORD coming with His saints on a day when Jerusalem is being over run. It is a day when the LORD fights and saves Israel. On this day it is said that the LORD is king over all the earth. It is on this day that the Mount of Olives splits in two creating a new valley and a river that flows year round. It is a day that from that time on the nations which are left are required to keep the feast of tabernacle or they get no rain. If you list the events here and compare them with other scriptures it is established by more than 1 witness that the kingdom will be on earth and those dead in Christ will rule and reign with Him. Daniel breaks the 70th 7 off and says in the middle of the week the daily sacrifice will be stopped. That would make the 42 months left the middle of the week in Rev when the antichrist is given dominion over every tribe tongue kindred and nation and enforce the mark of the beast. Daniel says 1290 days which in Hebrew calendars could contain a span of two leap months. which would add 60 days to the cycle. So 1290 days is the middle of the week.
Hosea 3 links the return of the sacrifice with the return of the kingdom. For the children of Israel shall abide many days without king or prince, without sacrifice or sacred pillar, without ephod or teraphim. 5 Afterward the children of Israel shall return and seek the LORD their God and David their king. They shall fear the LORD and His goodness in the latter days. Israel is now prepared to resume the sacrifices. The abomination of desolation is supposed to happen in the temple. So those who argue that 70AD is it should consider that the world is setting up for these events to happen literally now. This is strong evidence that the literal futurist are right.

 

[mkgal1]

It was 7 years after Pentecost.

I don't think so. Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles" and most timelines I've seen show his conversion to have been around 34 A.D.


Basic Acts Timeline (Witherington III, B. (1998). The Acts of the Apostles : A socio-rhetorical commentary (81–86). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co)

A.D. 30—Jesus is crucified under Pontius Pilate. Resurrection appearances, Pentecost, initial growth of the church in and around Jerusalem.

A.D. 31–33—The events of Acts 3–7 transpire with mounting concern on the part of Jews and especially the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem. The rising tension results in vigilante action taken against Stephen, and then an authorized effort under Saul to disrupt and even destroy this new messianic sect, involving persecution and even the death of some Christians (cf. Acts 8:1–3 to Gal. 1:13). The persecution led various Christians such as Philip to go elsewhere, such as Samaria, and bear witness (Acts 8:4–40). THE FIRST EIGHT CHAPTERS OF ACTS COVER ONLY THE PERIOD FROM ABOUT 30 TO 33.

A.D. 33 or 34—Saul is converted on the road to Damascus during his period of persecuting the church (Acts 9; Galatians 1).


Another: Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources

Quoting Dr. Thomas Schreiner---->The Lord made it clear when Paul was converted that he was “a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul’s role as a missionary is captured by the words Jesus spoke to him on the Damascus Road according to Acts 26:18: “…to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” Paul was God’s chosen instrument to bring God’s saving message to the ends of the earth.​

It is crucial to see that Paul’s role as a missionary to the nations fulfills Old Testament prophecy. In “the fullness of time” God sent forth His Son, Jesus Christ (Gal. 4:4). Christ’s ministry, death, and resurrection fulfilled the salvation predicted in the Old Testament. It was never God’s intention, however, that the saving message would be restricted to Israel. When God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He emphasized that all nations would be blessed through them (Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 26:4; 28:14). This promised universal blessing did not become a reality during Old Testament times.​

 

[DaDad]

Israel = Church.

This, my friends, is a false doctrine. Israel WILL receive Jesus, and the world will be evangelized by "completed" Jews.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[TribulationSigns]

Israel = Church.

I want to clarify some misconceptions on "Israel = Church" as it has some people misunderstanding.

It is NOT "National Israel = Gentile Church", agree? God is talking about Covenant Israel which makes up of ALL Elect Jews of Old Testament congregation and Elect Gentiles of New Testament Congregation, together as one "Israel" In Christ which is today is also called "church". Not nation Israel nor physical church.

Both old testament and New Testament congregation have a share of God's people who are NOT saved (eg. professed believers) which is why the true Covenant Israel make up of a smaller group of people out of each congregation. Therefore "Israel" is based on PEOPLE, not nation Israel nor corporate church.

 

[DaDad]

...

This, my friends, is a false doctrine. Israel WILL receive Jesus, and the world will be evangelized by "completed" Jews.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[TribulationSigns]

I agree, but in the first 3.5 years following Christ's ascension, that Church was made up of ethnic Israelites (jews), and not gentiles. It wasn't until after these 3.5 years that gentiles were grafted into true Israel (the church)

This is one of the things I disagreed with. One need to read Acts 10:1-48; 11:1-18 where Peter's Revelation by God is to take Gospel to the Gentiles even before Paul started his ministry. The "3.5 years" has nothing to do with "Jewish church" before Gentiles can be included. That is wishful thinking and is not based on Scripture.

 

[TribulationSigns]

This, my friends, is a false doctrine. Israel WILL receive Jesus, and the world will be evangelized by "completed" Jews.
Thanks,
DaDad

False. This is a Jewish fable which is part of the deadly poison of the Dispensationalism.

I don't believe that anyone who is not redeemed by the blood of Christ unto salvation, experienced any redemption corporately or nationally. What they experienced was the Covenant sanctification, a kingdom group relationship. It may seem like a national redemption, but that's because God speaks of all Israel as His people, His children, His sons, collectively. Just as He does the New Testament Church. The non-elect on the Old Covenant side of the cross was a "part" of the external Covenant with Israel, just as the non-elect on the New Covenant side of the cross are a part of the Covenant with Israel. I don't believe that either had/have a national redemption, but they did/do have a corporate sanctification, a Covenant "relationship" with God by being a part of the body of Christ. This covenant relationship of the unsaved who are part of God's Covenant people is illustrated vividly in passages such as 1st Corinthians:

1st Corinthians 7:13-14

• "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
• For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy."

Clearly God is telling us that there is a Covenant sanctifying relationship that covers the unbelieving husband to set him apart for a sacred use in procreation. For example, the children are holy because the wife is a Covenant Child of God, so that the husband (though he remain unsaved), comes under that Covenant sanctification also. This is for the sake of the children. The external covenant that the wife is under covers the husband's sanctification also. Elsewhere the children unholy. For example, the unsaved were under the external Covenant, set apart (sanctified) also and used for the service of God. This applies to both congregations of Israel in the old and new testament. No such as future national redemption for all Jews within a nation. Selah!

 

[claninja]

This is one of the things I disagreed with. One need to read Acts 10:1-48; 11:1-18 where Peter's Revelation by God is to take Gospel to the Gentiles even before Paul started his ministry. The "3.5 years" has nothing to do with "Jewish church" before Gentiles can be included. That is wishful thinking and is not based on Scripture.

Jesus tells his followers only to go to the lost sheep of Israel. He specifically tells them not to enter Samaritan towns or preach to gentiles
Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Acts 8 is the first mention of going to samaria to preach the gospel. This occurs around 3.5 years after Jesus ascends, considering Stephen was stoned in 34 AD.
Acts 8:4-5 Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there.

Philip even preaches to an Ethopian Eunuch
Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian a eunuch

So yes, the gospel is spread outside of Israel 3.5 years after Jesus ascends. Prior to that, the gospel was only spread to Jews for those 3.5 years.

 

[Dave L]

I want to clarify some misconceptions on "Israel = Church" as it has some people misunderstanding.

It is NOT "National Israel = Gentile Church", agree? God is talking about Covenant Israel which makes up of ALL Elect Jews of Old Testament congregation and Elect Gentiles of New Testament Congregation, together as one "Israel" In Christ which is today is also called "church". Not nation Israel nor physical church.

Both old testament and New Testament congregation have a share of God's people who are NOT saved (eg. professed believers) which is why the true Covenant Israel make up of a smaller group of people out of each congregation. Therefore "Israel" is based on PEOPLE, not nation Israel nor corporate church.

OT Israel was a State/Church made up of believers and unbelievers alike. Not too different from the Reformed or Lutheran idea of church today. When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. God removed these unbelievers from Israel leaving only believers in Christ. It is into this Israel under Christ God will reattach any of the broken off. But only through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

 

[TribulationSigns]

Jesus tells his followers only to go to the lost sheep of Israel. He specifically tells them not to enter Samaritan towns or preach to gentiles
Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel.

Peter, James, Paul, Mark and all the Elect Jews, AND the Gentile lady, for example, who was saved from outside the nation of Israel, according to the election of grace. Of course, she is also the lost sheep. They are the lost sheep of the house of Israel for whom Christ came, and for whom Christ died. Christ came to Israel first, and then afterward the dispensation to the Gentiles. That both might find salvation. There is no "3.5 year" basis for this. You got timing wrong. Anyway...

Matthew 15:24

• "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The Prophesied Messiah came to Israel to restore the sheep to the fold, and most of the nation of Israel rejected Him. Giving the ordained opportunity for salvation to go to the nations or Gentiles also. So now the remnant of the nation Israel, and the remnant of nations (Gentiles) are all reconciled to God under one Israel, which is in Christ. They are all His lost sheep, gathered into one fold, and collectively make up the true Israel of God, the body of Christ. Selah!

What so many theologians fail to comprehend in what scripture declares, is that there are no longer two folds anymore, but "ONLY" one fold. There is not the Jews of Israel, and also the Gentiles somewhere else. There is now only one tree Israel and her many branches, and one fold Israel, and her one shepherd. Because Christ has combined them into His body as one Israel. Ergo, the illustration of the Covenant Olive tree Israel receiving gentile branches. Or better, even as Christ Himself explained.

John 10:15-16

• "As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
• And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

Unfortunately, a great many people wish to keep the idea of two separate folds, which is unbiblical and contrary to the word of God. One Israel, which is one fold, and one Shepherd over them. One restoration of the kingdom with one King ascending to the throne.

Acts 8 is the first mention of going to samaria to preach the gospel. This occurs around 3.5 years after Jesus ascends, considering Stephen was stoned in 34 AD.
Acts 8:4-5 Those who had been scattered preached the word wherever they went. Philip went down to a city in Samaria and proclaimed the Messiah there.

Philip even preaches to an Ethopian Eunuch
Acts 8:26 Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, “Go south to the road—the desert road—that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza.” 27So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian a eunuch

So yes, the gospel is spread outside of Israel 3.5 years after Jesus ascends. Prior to that, the gospel was only spread to Jews for those 3.5 years.

Again, I do not agree with your position that after ascendent so that the gospel was only limited to the Jews for 3.5 literal years before Gospel can go to the Gentiles. This is not biblical sustainable especially after you do not consider the 1,260 days as symbolic time and tried to change it into 3.5 literal years to fit your doctrine. The 1,260 days is SYMBOLICALLY the WHOLE New Testament period where the woman (church - not Jews) flee to the world (wilderness) where Gospel can be fed. NOt literal period of time that we can insert into a calendar and develop a doctrine upon it.

 

[Dave L]

This, my friends, is a false doctrine. Israel WILL receive Jesus, and the world will be evangelized by "completed" Jews.
Thanks,
DaDad

Jesus is Israel along with any who believe in him. God removed the unbelievers from Israel and will reattach any who have faith in Christ (Romans 11).

 

[Dave L]

I don't think so. Paul was the "apostle to the Gentiles" and most timelines I've seen show his conversion to have been around 34 A.D.


Basic Acts Timeline (Witherington III, B. (1998). The Acts of the Apostles : A socio-rhetorical commentary (81–86). Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co)

A.D. 30—Jesus is crucified under Pontius Pilate. Resurrection appearances, Pentecost, initial growth of the church in and around Jerusalem.

A.D. 31–33—The events of Acts 3–7 transpire with mounting concern on the part of Jews and especially the Jewish authorities in Jerusalem. The rising tension results in vigilante action taken against Stephen, and then an authorized effort under Saul to disrupt and even destroy this new messianic sect, involving persecution and even the death of some Christians (cf. Acts 8:1–3 to Gal. 1:13). The persecution led various Christians such as Philip to go elsewhere, such as Samaria, and bear witness (Acts 8:4–40). THE FIRST EIGHT CHAPTERS OF ACTS COVER ONLY THE PERIOD FROM ABOUT 30 TO 33.

A.D. 33 or 34—Saul is converted on the road to Damascus during his period of persecuting the church (Acts 9; Galatians 1).


Another: Apostle Paul's Timeline - Study Resources

Quoting Dr. Thomas Schreiner---->The Lord made it clear when Paul was converted that he was “a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). Paul’s role as a missionary is captured by the words Jesus spoke to him on the Damascus Road according to Acts 26:18: “…to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.” Paul was God’s chosen instrument to bring God’s saving message to the ends of the earth.​

It is crucial to see that Paul’s role as a missionary to the nations fulfills Old Testament prophecy. In “the fullness of time” God sent forth His Son, Jesus Christ (Gal. 4:4). Christ’s ministry, death, and resurrection fulfilled the salvation predicted in the Old Testament. It was never God’s intention, however, that the saving message would be restricted to Israel. When God chose Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, He emphasized that all nations would be blessed through them (Gen. 12:3; 18:18; 26:4; 28:14). This promised universal blessing did not become a reality during Old Testament times.​

God poured out the Spirit on Cornelius (the gentiles) and his household about 7 years after Pentecost.

 

[TribulationSigns]

OT Israel was a State/Church made up of believers and unbelievers alike. Not too different from the Reformed or Lutheran idea of church today.

That's what I was trying to say.

When Jesus abolished circumcision on the cross, nothing remained to make one a physical Jew or physical member of Israel. God removed these unbelievers from Israel leaving only believers in Christ. It is into this Israel under Christ God will reattach any of the broken off. But only through faith in Christ (Romans 11).

Christ was talking about Jews of the New Testament that if they found Christ and have faith in Christ will be reattached to Covenant Israel.

By the way, don't forget, that the Covenant Tree Is Israel which is rooted in Christ Jesus. This made up of "church" (people) in Christ whether they are Jews or Gentiles., old or new testament.

 

[mkgal1]

This, my friends, is a false doctrine

Then the Orthodox faith has been wrong all along? You may wish to do some research on the Orthodox church.

Quoting from St. Andrew GOC----->The Church is the Israel of God, "not a new Israel, but the one and only people of God, Israel in a new face of history, namely, that of Jesus." The Church is all encompassing and provides Divine revelation and salvation to all people and races. One interpreter of Saint Paul makes the point that; "In Jesus there is a new universalism, not a bare transposition from Israel to the Church." Children of God are "all who received Him (Christ), Who believed in His name." (St. John 1:12). "It is faith, this total adherence to the person of Christ, as revealed and expressed through His Name, that makes of us 'children of God'.

The term "people of God" in the Orthodox Church is understood as the members of the body of Christ (the Church), the "Israel of God," the "saints," the "elect," the "chosen race," and the "royal priesthood". In the New Testament, as understood by Orthodox Christians, the "people of God" is the Church as the body of Christ. In the First Epistle (Letter) of Saint Peter it is clearly stated that: "At one time you were not God's people, but now you are His people." The Church is "God's holy people," the baptized participating in God's realm, as manifested in the divine Eucharistic Liturgy. ~ The "Chosen" People of God: An Orthodox Perspective

Quoting GoArch------>The emergence of the Christian church was conceived by its early Apologists as being the inheritor of this heritage from the Old Testament. The church is in continuity with the Israel of God. The church Fathers made this clear in their writings and the Orthodox Christian Church maintains the position that the church is the people of God and the new Israel. ~ The People of God: An Orthodox Perspective - Theology - Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America

 

[mkgal1]

God poured out the Spirit on Cornelius (the gentiles) and his household about 7 years after Pentecost.

I was trying to find a date for that. That does seem to be what I am finding as a year as well.

Saul (Paul) however, was being prepared for 3 years to preach to the Gentiles (beginning around 34 A.D. . Could this not be considered as "the gospel being given over to the Gentiles"? It seems consistent that there's always a period of transition in the biblical timeline. Were other disciples teaching to the Gentiles in 34 A.D.?