Has Muslim Theology influenced Iconoclasm?

[Phil 1:21]

Usually fixes itself. Those who think "veneration" means "worship" drift away from the Church and find religions that are more suitable for them.

Or the people who decide to follow the word of God seek Him elsewhere. Good times.

 

[Not David]

Or the people who decide to follow the word of God seek Him elsewhere. Good times.

Are you trying to say people who venerate icons don't obey God?

 

[lismore]

Hello friends, I thought this passage is relevant.

He removed the pagan shrines, smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke up the bronze serpent that Moses had made, because the people of Israel had been offering sacrifices to it. The bronze serpent was called Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4)

God told Moses to make this bronze serpent in the first place, could it be that this bronze serpent became an idol?

Could it be that Christian artwork/ icons/ statues are not idols in themselves but have the potential to become idols if used incorrectly?

God Bless All

 

[Not David]

Hello friends, I thought this passage is relevant.

He removed the pagan shrines, smashed the sacred pillars, and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke up the bronze serpent that Moses had made, because the people of Israel had been offering sacrifices to it. The bronze serpent was called Nehushtan (2 Kings 18:4)

God told Moses to make this bronze serpent in the first place, could it be that this bronze serpent became an idol?

Could it be that Christian artwork/ icons/ statues are not idols in themselves but have the potential to become idols if used incorrectly?

God Bless All

Yes, everything can become an idol tho.

 

[The Barbarian]

Yes, everything can become an idol tho.

I know of people who have made an idol of the Bible. You can twist anything into an idol if you are so inclined.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The Holy of Holies was the place of God's residence within the temple, that is why only certain people were permitted to enter. This was to ensure that the faithful would have "due reverence" for the space. Due reverence for the physical space is "veneration" of that space. This is from the religion of Israel, not just Islam. There is no confusion here. What Jews do today is not a great deal like the temple worship of old was.

I disagree. Veneration is not the same as respect. They did not have reverence for the space nor venerate it. You cannot venerate what you cannot ever see. This is not the faith that Moses taught. He would not have done so, having been one who talked to God face to face. The woman at the well talking to Jesus tried to get him to discuss where (as is which space) is the correct place to worship God. He responded that her thinking was wrong. The true worshippers worship in spirit and truth, not facing or in the right physical place. The whole idea is not what Moses taught nor what God wants.

The faith given by Moses would not have included facing a particular direction nor even facing the ark of the covenant. The holy of holies what were God's presence came when the first temple was finished. Did not seem to stay there judging by what happened to the ark over time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Still it was a physical space containing graven objects, which together served as a visual metaphor (icon) of God's presence. This space was venerated by the pious believers, so it was an icon that was venerated in spirit, and the faithful probably bowed down prostrate towards the "Holy of Holies" in prayer, which constitutes "veneration".

The lid had two beings carved into it. It cannot be an icon if no one sees it except a handful of men. THe space was not venerated in spirit or otherwise by those who believed the faith as Moses gave to them. Falling down prostrate does not mean veneration either. Veneration happens in the heart.

But you seem to have made up your mind and no truth is allowed to penetrate. The Jews worshipped a god not made with hands and to venerate any object made with hands was repugnant to them. Same for the Christians. We and they do not journey to Jerusalem at least once in a lifetime. They do not worship a stone encircling it or kissing it.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I know of people who have made an idol of the Bible. You can twist anything into an idol if you are so inclined.

True, it is called biblioatry. I heard of a pastor once who bought a beautiful new Bible and had it on a pedastil. He was fond of a quill pen and one day when he was reading that Bible, the ink spill over and ran down one of the pages. He was pretty upset and then God spoke to him and told him he was worshipping the book.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Well, I don't necessarily see that as problematic. One thing I will credit Muslims with is taking the outward manner of religion seriously. In many ways, Muslims are closer to the ancient Church in their sensibilities than Protestant religious entrepreneurs in North America. There has been some dialogue between some Muslims and Eastern Christians, and a great deal of shared ethos is evident in how spiritual things are approached.

BTW, haven't you heard that Jews say "Next year in Jerusalem" at the end of their seders? And the image of Zion is throughout the Hebrew Bible.

There is a great deal of similarity between the Catholics and the Muslims. But the Catholics are not closer to the first century church than the Protestants, almost any of them. Their roots do go back to ancient faiths as they are very close to the Egyptian and other pagan religions in their rites and rituals.

I have seen a clip on the similarites between Islam and Catholicism and it is pretty interesting. One would not think so on the surface.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The veneration Solomon gave to the temple filled with the Ark of the covenant was veneration. There are numerous instances of veneration of certain objects in the Bible.

Like what? And you interpret the words of Solomon to mean veneration but that is really repugnant to the Jews. Respect? Yes. Worship and veneration? No. They worshipped a God not made with hands.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No. Visual metaphors, images made by Orthodox Christians, of the things of the Kingdom of Heaven and of the Church appear much earlier than Constantine. These were produced while Christianity was forced underground because it was illegal.

No, the drawings in the catecombs were not simple drawings by those who liked to draw. They are not forbidden nor a part of the faith anymore than which type of building the early Christians met in. They were not images any more than the Mona Lisa is an image.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

In medieval Europe, where few could read, statues, paintings and stained glass windows were the way the Church instructed the faithful and reminded them of God's word and deeds.

Later, when reading became more widespread, Bibles began to be printed for everyday use.

The truth is the Catholic church outlawed having Bibles and subsittuted images not for instruction but for indoctrination. Have you been to the catherdrals of Europe? ENdless drawings of a strong Mary and a weak Jesus. It is a female worshipping faith. Jesus is almost always a helpless baby, or helpless on the cross or dead (also helpless.) Mary is always standing their strong and taking care of Jesus. Nothing about moral goodness or the teachings of the real Jesus. The Bible was not available because people could not read. It was not available because the Catholics forbid it to stay in power.

 

[FireDragon76]

Like what? And you interpret the words of Solomon to mean veneration but that is really repugnant to the Jews. Respect? Yes. Worship and veneration? No. They worshipped a God not made with hands.

Jews venerate physical objects, haven't you seen the Wailing Wall? The rabbis in the synagogue kiss the Torah, or show reverence for it in other ways, such as keeping it in an ark. Jewish pilgrims in the Holy Land visit sites of the Patriarchs. Those are all acts of veneration.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

If our souls aren't venerating the presence of God when such art brings it to their awareness, it would likely be due to the hardness of our hearts. Physical forms of veneration merely express the state of the soul induced by the Holy Spirit, or can aid in the correction of our hearts by the Holy Spirit.

Anyone who has been in the presence of God knows our souls do not venerate the presence of God. They venerate God Himself. Art generally brings idolatry.

But it occured to me something that some Christians do venerate, Jerusalem. This is a place Christians tend to venerate. They think God is going after nations that dare attack it to this day. Jerusalem, the same city described in Revelation as Sodom. Not exactly a picture of God's dwelling on earth nor his favourite place.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jews venerate physical objects, haven't you seen the Wailing Wall? The rabbis in the synagogue kiss the Torah, or show reverence for it in other ways, such as keeping it in an ark. Jewish pilgrims in the Holy Land visit sites of the Patriarchs. Those are all acts of veneration.

I was talking about the faith of Moses. And yes, they do venerate the wailing wall for sure. Jerusalem is the second most idolatrous city I ever visited, Rome being the first. The place is full of the veneration of physical objects. The people go to stones and weep and carry on. They literally worship physical objects there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Muslims, or rather pre-Muslims, had a problem with idols that was perhaps greater than that of the Israelites. So not surprisingly, they reacted more strongly to depictions of anything than Christians do. Eventually, some of that reaction worked it's way over to the Byzantines, and eventually to some European Christians.

I am afraid the Jews had a problem with idols when they were practiciing the faith of Moses and that was millennia before Mohammed. The Muslims got the idea from the Jews or the Christians, since Islam started way late in history.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The cherubim were used to protect the high priest from the glory of God. They were not venerated. The bronze serpent had to be destroyed later on because people started to worship the object.

2 Kings 18:4

Where do you get the idea that they were necessary to protect the priest from the glory of God? What do you think the glory of God is? SOmething we need an umbrella from? The cheribum were simply there on the lid. The glory of GOd, if presence was everywhere and if the priest had hidden sin in his life, it might not be a long life if the lot fell to him to enter. No statue protects a man from God.

 

[truefiction1]

The lid had two beings carved into it. It cannot be an icon if no one sees it except a handful of men. THe space was not venerated in spirit or otherwise by those who believed the faith as Moses gave to them. Falling down prostrate does not mean veneration either. Veneration happens in the heart.

But you seem to have made up your mind and no truth is allowed to penetrate. The Jews worshipped a god not made with hands and to venerate any object made with hands was repugnant to them. Same for the Christians. We and they do not journey to Jerusalem at least once in a lifetime. They do not worship a stone encircling it or kissing it.

We do not worship objects made by hands either. But you seem to have made up your mind and no truth is allowed to penetrate. The Jews did indeed venerate God upon the mercy seat. Jewish Christians have been writing icons and venerating them since the Evangelist Luke did it and Jesus' mother approved of them. And furthermore, falling down prostrate is often a genuine physical expression of the veneration that is happening in the heart, so it is a the physical aspect of veneration. Orthodox Christians of true belief do not need to separate our spiritual and physical being, because we are comprised of both, as is according to the will of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

I was talking about the faith of Moses. And yes, they do venerate the wailing wall for sure. Jerusalem is the second most idolatrous city I ever visited, Rome being the first. The place is full of the veneration of physical objects. The people go to stones and weep and carry on. They literally worship physical objects there..

Do you really believe nothing can be considered sacred? If so, then I hardly see how that attitude is human, much less Christian.

I agree with truefiction1 that what we do with our bodies can reflect what we feel in our hearts. I also agreed with the 19th century Danish bishop, Nikolai Grundtvig, that to be a Christian is to be a human first.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

We do not worship objects made by hands either. But you seem to have made up your mind and no truth is allowed to penetrate.

Untrue. I admitted the Jews venerate the wailing wall.

The Jews did indeed venerate God upon the mercy seat.

He wasn’t only on the mercy seat, but they did venerate God.

Jewish Christians have been writing icons and venerating them since the Evangelist Luke did it and Jesus' mother approved of them.

Where do you get that idea? From the catholics who worship Mary?

And furthermore, falling down prostrate is often a genuine physical expression of the veneration that is happening in the heart, so it is a the physical aspect of veneration.

You don’t know that. Might not be.

Orthodox Christians of true belief do not need to separate our spiritual and physical being, because we are comprised of both, as is according to the will of God.

No one on earth can separate their spiritual being from the physical being except the Hindus and only for a short time. So this claim is no big deal.