Has Muslim Theology influenced Iconoclasm?

[Barney2.0]

Thank you for conceding they prayed to God, not a temple.

Now then, would you please be so kind as to quote scripture where the temple was "venerated" (as in burning incense to it, praying to it and so forth)? Thanks.

I don’t think you know what venerating means, it means to treat something with great respect. The Jews payed facing the temple, sacrificed goats and sheep at the temple and treated it as the only place in Earth where God’s glory literally manifested in. Icons aren’t prayed to either.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I don’t think you know what venerating means, it means to treat something with great respect.

I was raised in the RCC. Believe me. I know what "venerating" looks like.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Thank you for conceding they prayed to God, not a temple.

Now then, would you please be so kind as to quote scripture where the temple was "venerated" (as in burning incense to it, praying to it and so forth)? Thanks.

Do you think the way Jews worshipped God was written in Scripture?

Are we not discussing scripture?

 

[The Barbarian]

I was raised in the RCC. Believe me. I know what "venerating" looks like.

If you were, you'd know that Al Masihi is correct.

The Church teaches:
The word veneration simply means to give great respect or reverence. The respect and reverence that Catholics give to sacred objects is not of the same kind of respect or reverence given to God.

So now the question becomes, “Is it idol worship to show respect or reverence to a crucifix?” Such piety is no more idol worship than showing respect to a picture of a loved one by kissing it or putting it up on your mantle in a prominent place.

 

[The Barbarian]

It is a bit odd. I'm reminded of the time I was told that venerating idols (icons, whatever) is allowed because God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent so that anyone bit by a snake could look at it and be healed. The poster apparently didn't know that Hezekiah had the bronze serpent destroyed when the people sinned by burning incense to it. File that one under "Oops."

God didn't mess up by having the serpent made. Some people messed up by worshiping the image.

 

[Phil 1:21]

If you were, you'd know that Al Masihi is correct.

The Church teaches:
The word veneration simply means to give great respect or reverence. The respect and reverence that Catholics give to sacred objects is not of the same kind of respect or reverence given to God.

So now the question becomes, “Is it idol worship to show respect or reverence to a crucifix?” Such piety is no more idol worship than showing respect to a picture of a loved one by kissing it or putting it up on your mantle in a prominent place.

My use of quotes around "veneration" wasn't accidental.

God didn't mess up by having the serpent made. Some people messed up by worshiping the image.

Yeah, that's kind the point.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Nvm..

 

[Barney2.0]

I was raised in the RCC. Believe me. I know what "venerating" looks like.

And I was raised Iconoclastic and now I venerate images, I know what it looks like, I know what words are recited, and I’m smart enough to tell veneration from worship.

 

[Phil 1:21]

And I was raised iconoclastic and now I venerate images, I know what it looks like, I know what words are recited, and I’m smart enough to tell veneration from worship.

And you particular church is not the only one "venerating" things.

 

[Barney2.0]

It is a bit odd. I'm reminded of the time I was told that venerating idols (icons, whatever) is allowed because God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent so that anyone bit by a snake could look at it and be healed. The poster apparently didn't know that Hezekiah had the bronze serpent destroyed when the people sinned by burning incense to it. File that one under "Oops."

Their sin was worshipping it as a god called Nehushtan, that’s the exact opposite of veneration and the Church’s teachings on the subject.

 

[Barney2.0]

And you particular church is not the only one "venerating" things.

I don’t see why you our quoting marks around veneration as if it’s not a real word, I’d urge you to google it or open your nearest dictionary and look up the word worship, before making such comments.

 

[The Barbarian]

My use of quotes around "veneration" wasn't accidental.

So some people don't follow Catholic teaching. Yeah, that's always been the case.

 

[Phil 1:21]

I don’t see why you our quoting marks around veneration as if it’s not a real word, I’d urge you to google it or open your nearest dictionary and look up the word worship, before making such comments.

Or I can just look at what people who "venerate" idols (icons, statues, whatever) do under that umbrella.

So some people don't follow Catholic teaching. Yeah, that's always been the case.

Sounds like an internal problem.

 

[Barney2.0]

Or I can just look at what people who "venerate" idols (icons, statues, whatever) do under that umbrella.

Sounds like an internal problem.

There’s a difference between icons and statues used in Church and idols. Looking without seeing the Churches official stance on icons or statues or examining the prayers being directed to the icons or statues is pretty useless, especially if you don’t want to accept any interpretation of icons or statues which contradicts your own regardless of its truth. And since you’ve already put the idea of every image of worship being an idol then there really is no point in examining anything.

 

[Phil 1:21]

There’s a difference between icons and statues used in Church and idols. Looking without seeing the Churches official stance on icons or statues or examining the prayers being directed to the icons or statues is pretty useless, especially if you don’t want to accept any interpretation of icons or statues which contradicts your own regardless of its truth.

So "venerating" objects involves praying to them. You're kind of making my point for me here.

 

[Barney2.0]

So "venerating" objects involves praying to them. You're kind of making my point for me here.

We pray to the saints for intercession using images as representations. Were not worshipping the images or actually praying to the physical images. Just as the high priest would go in the Tabernacle to pray, we do the same with icons.

 

[The Barbarian]

Sounds like an internal problem.

Usually fixes itself. Those who think "veneration" means "worship" drift away from the Church and find religions that are more suitable for them.

 

[truefiction1]

So "venerating" objects involves praying to them. You're kind of making my point for me here.

Not the objects themselves. The desire to be prayed for, if by a saint, or healed of sin, if by God, is directed to those entities depicted. The objects themselves merely serve as visual metaphors connecting us to the persons to whom the asking of help is addressed. The objects themselves are merely windows peering into things beyond. They are not what is venerated. Who, or what is being depicted is the object of veneration. This is even true with icons that are confirmed to be of the "wonderworking" or miraculous variety.

 

[truefiction1]

It's quite concerning when we are taught in the New Testament that God comes to live with us, that one would need images to remind them of Him.

2 Timothy 1:14
Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.

Ephesians 2:22
in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling of God in the Spirit.


Ephesians 3:17
so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,


Colossians 1:27
to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

Hebrews 3:6
but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house--whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you?

Romans 8:16
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God

I understand your point, yes. But all of these things hold true for the "venerating" types, and probably with greater frequency and power than is found among those who don't venerate. Tell me, has the world become more abounding in grace and in faith since the iconoclastic movement was forwarded by a large population of the children of reformation theology, or is evil growing progressively towards those things which were prophesied would occur near the end of the Church age? There is this connection that we have become aware of, between rejection of the use of God's created matter as means of Communion with God in the Holy Spirit, in favor of an overemphasis on "language (i.e. "the word"/ideas/concepts)" alone, and an overall increase of faithlessness and perversity. Those who penned parts of the New Testament were well aware of this tendency to portray any worshipful use of "physical matter" as intrinsically bad as a spirit of antichrist, and taught that such a spirit is affiliated with the eventual great falling away that is to come. This heresy was called gnosticism, and iconoclasm has an imperceptible spirit of gnostic dualism (i.e. spirit vs. matter) at its roots.

Adam was to Commune with God, in the Holy Spirit, through all of the material things that God had created for this very purpose. Through the Incarnation of God in Christ, Who died, rose, and ascended, all of creation once again becomes as intended from the beginning: a means of Communion with God. The separating wall between God and His creation has been broken down (as symbolized by the Temple veil being torn in two, to release the contents of the Holy of Holies (God) into all the world). This is powered by the Lord Who is the Holy Spirit. Worship therefor takes on much vaster physical characteristics than it had, prior to the Incarnation of God the Word and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. We are children of the New Covenant, and our worship is conducted in greater freedom: that freedom had by those who are sons and daughters, rather than mere slaves and servants to the Law, which cannot itself save. Our freedom is not a freedom to sin, however, but a freedom to reject sin by the power of the Holy Spirit. Veneration of God's holiness, wherever and in whomever it may be found, is never sinful, unless it is done for only for show (in the spirit of Judas Iscariot) and not in genuine piety (real fear of God).

 

[truefiction1]

The images (icons) are visual metaphors. Our Lord loved and taught the use of metaphor as a powerful means by which we must Commune with Him. Take the "Good Shepherd" metaphor, which automatically calls up visual imagery of Him as our Savior. Why do we Love our Shepherd? See Psalms 23:1.

So, when we see this metaphorical image of Jesus as our Shepherd, we adore Him Who is depicted, and as the sinful harlot kissed the feet of her lord, washing them with her tears of repentance and wiping them with her hair, we too may be compelled to kiss the feet of Him Who is depicted through the visual metaphor before us. This compulsion is by the grace of the Holy Spirit, and acting upon the compulsion can be a means by which more of this grace enters into the soul. It is a means of Communion with God in the Holy Spirit, through the acceptable use of God's created material. This is something that we have learned through direct experience of God by the power (grace) of the Holy Spirit, while in the act of venerating such images.

In the souls of those who are not experienced in such Spiritual encounters, the veneration of icons can surely come across as blatantly idolatrous. We sometimes understand what truly lies beneath this misunderstanding of what is done in the act of venerating. But true veneration that is good and acceptable is about humility, repentance, and the Love of God -- not idolatry.