Is the Beast in Rev 17 is all Rome ?

[DaDad]

They weren't broken into only five pieces.

Slight of hand. They were broken into FIVE pieces. And the sequence cited is INTELLIGENT DESIGN, as ALL Scripture is:

Daniel 2:45 Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

What are you trying to prove with more than four kingdoms, anyway?

Are you familiar with the concept where Scripture matches History? Or is your imagination sufficient?

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7 Leopard (actually a Tiger), China
-- 8. "dreadful", U.N., has NO Geography, NO Army, NO Populous
9. Millennial Kingdom, Jesus
10. New Jerusalem, Eternity​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[eleos1954]

The Angel says the heads are 7 hillswhere the Woman sits. The word "Hills" makes the link or leap to Rome. The KJV and NIV translate the word as hills. Most others use mountains. If the translators were consistent we would be saying the "Hill of Olives" " Hill Zion". The word is used 64 times (Strong's 3735) , 62 times translated mount or mountain. Daniel in chapter 7 has 4 beast with a total of 7 heads with the final beast having 10 horns. They are 4 different kingdoms.



How then is all the heads on the 7 headed beast in REV 17 all Rome ?

Consider:

The beast has seven mountains/hills are successive empires:

(1) Egypt was the world power that enslaved and oppressed Israel, seeking to destroy her;
(2) Assyria destroyed and scattered the ten tribes of Israel;
(3) Babylon destroyed Jerusalem and exiled Judah;
(4) Persia almost annihilated the Jews at the time of Esther;
(5) Greece oppressed and tried to destroy the Jews through Antiochus Epiphanes.
(6) The Roman Empire
(7) The seventh kingdom that “has not yet come” refers to the medieval papacy*
(* from Johns time perspective)

NOTES:
Revelation does not deal with individual personalities but systems. These seven kings are equated with the seven mountains—a symbol of kingdoms or empires. In the Old Testament, “kings” is another expression for kingdoms or empires (Dan. 2:37–39; 7:17).

Daniel 7:1-8 – Daniel’s vision of four beasts

• The Lion - Babylon. Wings represent conquering speed. King Nebuchadnezzar.
• The Bear - Medo-Persia. One shoulder raised above the other represents dominance of the Medes over the Persians. The three ribs represent the three kingdoms overthrown by this kingdom - Egypt, Lydia, and Babylon. (Daniel 8:20)
• The Leopard - Greece. Four wings representing great conquering speed. The four heads represent Alexander the Great’s four generals who ruled Greece after his death – Seleucus, Ptolemy, Lysimachus and Cassander. (Daniel 8:21-22)
• The different beast - Rome. The ten horns - the divisions of Rome (Same as the toes of Chapter 2). The ten horns are the 10 divisions of the Roman Empire as it fell apart. These were the Anglo Saxons (England), Alemanni (Germany), Heruli (x493AD), Vandals (x534AD), Ostrogoths (x538AD), Visigoths (Spain), Suevi (Portugal), Lombard’s (Italy), Burgundians (Swiss) and the Franks (France).

 

[Douggg]

Are you familiar with the concept where Scripture matches History? Or is you imagination sufficient?

1. Gold, Babylon
2. Silver, Medo/Persia
3. Bronze, Greece
4. Iron, Rome
-- Clay, "divided"
-- 5. Lion/Eagle, U.K./U.S.
-- 6. Bear, Russia
-- 7 Leopard (actually a Tiger), China
-- 8. "dreadful", U.N., has NO Geography, NO Army, NO Populous
9. Millennial Kingdom, Jesus
10. New Jerusalem, Eternity​

Thanks,
DaDad

The prince who shall come is from the people who destroyed the city and temple. It was not the Russians, the Chinese, the Americans, the British, the U. N.

 

[DaDad]

The prince who shall come is from the people who destroyed the city and temple. It was not the Russians, the Chinese, the Americans, the British, the U. N.

Whew. I'm so glad that you know what you're talking about, because Scripture tells me otherwise, and I almost believed Scripture. Thanks!
DaDad

 

[jgr]

Slight of hand. They were broken into FIVE pieces. And the sequence cited is INTELLIGENT DESIGN, as ALL Scripture is:

Daniel 2:45 Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE​

Thanks,
DaDad

Presumably you meant "sleight". Apologies if you didn't.

Explicit contradiction of Scripture.

They were broken into innumerable pieces, i.e. chaff. Daniel 2:35

 

[claninja]

The Angel says the heads are 7 hillswhere the Woman sits. The word "Hills" makes the link or leap to Rome. The KJV and NIV translate the word as hills. Most others use mountains. If the translators were consistent we would be saying the "Hill of Olives" " Hill Zion". The word is used 64 times (Strong's 3735) , 62 times translated mount or mountain.

Tibullus lived before 19 BC

Tibullus Book 2 chapter 5 line 55
English translation:
Browse, bulls, while you can on the grass of the seven hills: here soon a great city will be sited.
Rome, your name is fated to rule the earth,
Latin translation:
carpite nunc, tauri, de septem montibus herbas
dum licet: hic magnae iam locus urbis erit.
Roma, tuum nomen terris fatale regendis,

montibus is latin for mountains

Rome was known for its 7 "mountains" even before John was given the revelation.

 

[JohnC2]

The Beast listed is a giant and powerful military empire.

It’s powered by Satan and it’s goal is the complete destruction of Israel and The Jews. This is one of the ways it is “different” than prior empires - which are primarily concerned with amassing wealth and power through military conquest.

Will it end up being a re-born Roman Empire? That has been the dream of almost every crazy dictator including Napoleon, Hitler, Mussolini, and The Turkish empire rulers. It makes sense - as Rome was GIANT... from Egypt and North Africa, the whole Middle East, Turkey, India, England, Poland, Armenia, Romania, Russia and the southern -Stans, Spain, France, Southern Germany... Even today - that’s almost 50% of the economy and 75% of the oil production of the whole world.

The Angel says the heads are 7 hillswhere the Woman sits. The word "Hills" makes the link or leap to Rome. The KJV and NIV translate the word as hills. Most others use mountains. If the translators were consistent we would be saying the "Hill of Olives" " Hill Zion". The word is used 64 times (Strong's 3735) , 62 times translated mount or mountain. Daniel in chapter 7 has 4 beast with a total of 7 heads with the final beast having 10 horns. They are 4 different kingdoms.



How then is all the heads on the 7 headed beast in REV 17 all Rome ?

 

[jgr]

The problem is that those particular ten kingdoms did not make war with Jesus.

The ten kingdoms were the predecessors of today's European nations. They retained geographical and political autonomy. In surrendering religious autonomy to Rome, they became ten geopolitical participants in the apostate papacy's "war with the Lamb" (Revelation 17:14).

The ten kings are end times kings. The reformers never did make the connection that to be Antichrist, the person has to be thought by the Jews to be the promised great King of Israel descended from King David. On one hand.

The ten kings are the historical kings of the papal era. The Reformers got it right. The spiritual liberties that we experience today are proof. There is no individual future Antichrist, as John explains (1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7). Jewishness is genetically present in every individual on earth, thus we are genetically all Jews.

So you put the seven years out there. And the person becomes the little horn first. Then Gog/Magog takes place. And right after it, the little horn is the prince who shall come into the middle east.

The Reformers accurately recognized the little horn as the apostate papacy.

 

[Douggg]

The ten kingdoms were the predecessors of today's European nations. They retained geographical and political autonomy. In surrendering religious autonomy to Rome, they became ten geopolitical participants in the apostate papacy's "war with the Lamb" (Revelation 17:14).

The ten kings are the historical kings of the papal era. The Reformers got it right. The spiritual liberties that we experience today are proof. There is no individual future Antichrist, as John explains (1 John 2:18,22; 4:3; 2 John 1:7). Jewishness is genetically present in every individual on earth, thus we are genetically all Jews.

The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour and make war against Jesus at His return. The duration of the ten kings ruling with the beast for one hour - is the 42 months in Revelation 13.

Can't you see how much of the bible you have to change from what it says in the text - to make the reformers' eschatology work? The 42 months into days into years. The same for the 1260 days into years.

John in 1John2:18 didn't say that antichrist was not coming - but coming. It was known among the believers John was speaking to that antichrist was coming. They had heard about it.

Saying we are all Jews is as about as valid as saying we are all blacks, who were dispersed as slaves, or all Romans who were all over the known world. We are not all Jews. Paul was sent to preach the gospel to the gentiles - the nations - which the whole point was that they were not Jews.

 

[DaDad]

Presumably you meant "sleight".
They were broken into innumerable pieces, i.e. chaff. Daniel 2:35

Correct on both points; -- I intended to re-assert that the Image consists of FIVE separate and distinct Kingdoms.
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[jgr]

The ten kings rule with the beast for one hour and make war against Jesus at His return. The duration of the ten kings ruling with the beast for one hour - is the 42 months in Revelation 13.

Can't you see how much of the bible you have to change from what it says in the text - to make the reformers' eschatology work? The 42 months into days into years. The same for the 1260 days into years.

The ten kings aligned with the apostate papacy made war against the Lamb for 1260 years from 538 AD to 1798 AD. 1260 days = 1260 years by Scripture's prophetic day-year association in Numbers 14:34, Ezekiel 4:5-6, and by Christ Himself in Luke 13:31-33.

The Reformers got it right. If they had not, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Living, and dying, in the midst of the prophetic fulfillments, their prophetic recognition and comprehension far exceeded ours today. There wasn't a futurist to be found among them. They understood the prophetic significance of what they were directly observing and experiencing.

John in 1John2:18 didn't say that antichrist was not coming - but coming. It was known among the believers John was speaking to that antichrist was coming. They had heard about it.

John in 1 John 2:18 said that antichrist had come, and that there were many more than only one.

Saying we are all Jews is as about as valid as saying we are all blacks, who were dispersed as slaves, or all Romans who were all over the known world. We are not all Jews. Paul was sent to preach the gospel to the gentiles - the nations - which the whole point was that they were not Jews.

Below are the genetic and mathematical confirmations of Jewish genetic ubiquity. Feel free to disprove any of them.

Abraham lineage
DNA Tests Could Fulfill God’s Promise to Abraham by Revealing Millions of Jews. But How Jewish is Jewish Enough?
Israel in all of Us? Research finds 'Jewish genes' in unusual places

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/132800
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/tracing-lost-israelite-tribes-to-africa-1.5283901
https://www.cnn.com/2013/02/01/world/africa/nigeria-jews-igbo/index.html
http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/...-africa-has-jewish-roots-genetic-tests-reveal
https://www.jpost.com/Jewish-World/...her-claims-proof-of-tribe-of-Ephraim-in-India
https://www.jta.org/2013/05/23/life...bush-bani-israel-tribe-claims-jewish-heritage

Example of the mathematical confirmation of ancestral genetic ubiquity

 

[Douggg]

The Reformers got it right. If they had not, we wouldn't be having this conversation

No, the reformers did not get it right that the Pope or office of the Pope is the Antichrist or the beast. What they go right was the abuses of the Popes and RCC. That does not ,however, make the Popes the Antichrist.

Living, and dying, in the midst of the prophetic fulfillments, their prophetic recognition and comprehension far exceeded ours today.

The prophecies have been sealed from understanding until the time of the end, when travel and knowledge are increased. The reformers would not have any idea what a car was or a computer.

Daniel 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

 

[jgr]

No, the reformers did not get it right that the Pope or office of the Pope is the Antichrist or the beast. What they go right was the abuses of the Popes and RCC. That does not ,however, make the Popes the Antichrist.

The Reformers declared, consistent with 1 John 2:18, that the papacy was (an) antichrist, the predominant antichrist of their era, but not the sole and exclusive antichrist of all time. Their declaration was one of the foundational doctrines of the Reformation, without which the Reformation would not have succeeded. We are the beneficiaries of that success.

 

[Douggg]

John in 1 John 2:18 said that antichrist had come, and that there were many more than only one.

No, not that antichrist had come, but that the spirit of antichrist had come, which there were people acting accordingly, leaving Christianity, denying Father and Son.

1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[jgr]

No, not that antichrist had come, but that the spirit of antichrist had come, which there were people acting accordingly, leaving Christianity, denying Father and Son.

1John2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

 

[Douggg]

The Reformers declared, consistent with 1 John 2:18, that the papacy was (an) antichrist, the predominant antichrist of their era, but not the sole and exclusive antichrist of all time. Their declaration was one of the foundational doctrines of the Reformation, without which the Reformation would not have succeeded. We are the beneficiaries of that success.

Does the Pope(s) or RCC deny the Father and Son? Does the Pope(s) or RCC deny Christ come in the flesh. Or do the Pope(s) or RCC deny that Jesus is God entered into this world?

No on all accounts. They are not antichrist. You could say they were false teachers and/or false prophets.

 

[Douggg]

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

jgr, John was "likening" them in his day that were exhibiting traits like the coming antichrist - by calling them "antichrists".

 

[jgr]

Does the Pope(s) or RCC deny the Father and Son? Does the Pope(s) or RCC deny Christ come in the flesh. Or do the Pope(s) or RCC deny that Jesus is God entered into this world?

No on all accounts. They are not antichrist. You could say they were false teachers and/or false prophets.

The prefix "anti" means not only in opposition to, but also in substitution of. Papal examples:

Pius X: "The Pope...is Jesus Christ Himself, hidden under the veil of flesh."

Pius XI: "You know that I am the Holy Father, the representative of God on the earth, the Vicar of Christ, which means that I am God on the earth."

Pius IX was described as "the living Christ", and "the Lamb of the Vatican".

The Canon Law in the Gloss on the Extravaganza of John XXII, AD 1316-1334, calls the Roman pontiff "Our Lord God the Pope."

Martin V was addressed as: "The most holy and most blessed, who holds the celestial jurisdiction, who is Lord over all the earth...the anointed...the ruler of the universe, the father of kings, the Light of the World."

During the Vatican Council, 9 January 1870, it was stated: "The Pope is Christ in office, Christ in jurisdiction and power...we bow down before thy voice, O Pius, as before the voice of Christ, the God of truth; in clinging to thee, we cling to Christ."

Cardinal Henry Edward Manning said: "He [the Roman pope] was elevated to be, in his Divine Master's Name, King of kings and Lord of lords." (Manning, Temporal Power, Preface, 42-46)

“All the names which in the Scripture are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope.” Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, De Conciliorum Auctoriatate (On the Authority of the Councils) Bk 2, chap. 17 Bellarmine (1542-1621), a professor and rector at the Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome, is generally considered to have been one of the outstanding Jesuit instructors in the history of this organization.

“The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not mere man, but as it were God, and the vicar of God. He is the divine monarch and supreme emperor, and king of kings. Hence the pope is crowned with a triple crown, as King of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions.” Lucius Ferraris, Prompta Bibliotheca, vol.6, art. “Papa II” (Ferraris was an Italian Catholic canonist and consultor to the Holy Office in Rome.)

“We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty.” Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical letter dated June 20, 1894, The Great Encyclical Letters of Leo XIII, p. 304.


The papacy declares itself to be the substitute for Christ on earth, i.e. antichrist.

 

[jgr]

jgr, John was "likening" them in his day that were exhibiting traits like the coming antichrist - by calling them "antichrists".

John does not futurize "antichrist(s)" in a single instance where he is describing and clarifying who and what antichrist is.

1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

1 John 2:22
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 John 4:3
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.