'once saved ,always saved' VS. Possibility of losing ones salvation

[bcbsr]

i fully accept everything the scripture say , not just your preferred words . stop baiting me with assumtions your making about "me" and address the WHOLE topic in honest approach.
every single text your quote has a "but " presented in anther verse . so i stick to my above summary .because salvation is grasped here by faith but not received untill he comes .

quote -"and i will continue to summarize the endless circular argument with this - it is WHEN JESUS comes that we are then saved from the wrath of God as HE judges whom are his and whom were faithful to him .
and after he has done so and said "enter into the joy of the lord" -then and only then is salvation eternal .for many will think they have obtained it only to find they never had it in the first place .

And yet Jesus also says, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." John 5:24

Most assuredly I believe what Jesus said there. Do you?

 

[Lost4words]

English is your first language... So, I will assume you just do not want to accept Jesus' words.


And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me,

If He will lose none? Think? How many adds up to 'none?'

whoever comes to me I will never drive away.

Again... Think?

Jesus said He will lose none of all that come to Him. You? "Jesus lied."

And..please. Don't bait me with Catholic dogma.

Obviously you have lost your way somewhere. Never mind. I tried.

 

[Lost4words]

What ever you are trying is wrong.. Its calling Jesus a liar.


And, its also trolling.

I am not trolling. I am only giving my take on once saved always saved. I don't have to agree with your views. I agree with what I believe to be the truth, which, is backed up by the Holy Catholic Church.

 

[GenemZ]

I am not trolling. I am only giving my take on once saved always saved. I don't have to agree with your views. I agree with what I believe to be the truth, which, is backed up by the Holy Catholic Church.

I see.... that's the problem. Not doing your own thinking. Ignoring the Word of God when it disavows the dogma you want to accept. That's not good when you appear before the Lord.

BTW.... For a short while I used to attend another Catholic Bible study with my brother and sister in law that was given by the Marion Brothers. There was a given time given during the study when anyone who wanted to could stand and read a passage out loud for all attending to hear.

One night I stood up. I read the exact same passage I presented to you here to you.

You should have heard the audible sighs of relief being expressed when I finished.

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will
of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall
lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes
in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Jn 6:38-40

​

They got it.. deeply.

Unlike you, they believed the Lord Jesus Christ. It was His words.

But, you do not? Careful.. those Catholics will leave you to be without excuse.

You can always reconsider while you yet have breath... Its what the Bible calls "repentance."

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me
I will never drive away." Jn 6:37​

Have a nice Day.

 

[Lost4words]

One can believe but also trip up in life. We are human. We are sinners.

Only if we follow Jesus and repent of our sins will we be saved. If we don't repent then we are lost.

Jesus gave us a way to salvation. He gave us a way to repent. He gave us the Apostles. Apostolic succession. The priesthood. He gave us Peter, the rock. He gave us 'confession' 'Eucharist' etc. I am thankful knowing that when I do fail, I can turn to Jesus and ask forgiveness, through his Royal priesthood. Just like He told the Apostles:

John 20:21-23
21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

I believe in the Catholic Church. You don't. That's your prerogative.

I am moving out of this thread now as I feel it is being derailed and no point in going around in circles.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

OSAS is a doctrine of devils

Don't agree for Jesus said that, He would not lose one that the Father had given to Him.

Period -- put away false teaching.

M-Bob

PS -- if what you state is true one could be saved one day and then not the next and then next week possibly saved again?

Never attended a Church (of many) where that is taught.

BETTER BE CAREFUL WHICH DAY YOU DIE ON!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Once saved, always saved, is a lie. We have to do our bit. How? By living a sin free life. By loving God. By believing in Jesus, The Way, The Truth and the Life.

If you Sin, repent. Go on your knees and repent. Me? I go to confession too.

Oh? So, salvation for you is not of faith, but following a set of moral rules? Have a read of Galatians 5. It says there that those who try to be justified by following a set of moral laws have fallen from grace and Christ is of no value to them.

Paul says that we should stand fast in the freedom that Christ has made us free from the law of sin and death. Those who try to follow a set of moral laws are bewitched and have been led away from faith in Christ. So, if a person is to lose their salvation in Christ is would be that they have stopped having faith alone in Christ and are trying to please God by following a set of moral laws which either their church or themselves have made up.

But, once having established justification through faith in Christ alone, Paul says later in the passage (Galatians 5:1-15) that we should not use our freedom as an occasion to do the works of the flesh. He is saying that not to avoid the works of the flesh to be justified, which has already been accomplished through the finished work of Christ, but in order to walk worthy of the calling which they have already received.

In actual fact, a born again Christian is dead to sin and sin is dead to him. Therefore he is justified before God whether he sins or not. But keeping away from the works of the flesh is important to preserve his testimony to the world and to remove any hindrance to sharing the gospel to others. Because the flesh wars against the Spirit, getting caught up in the works of the flesh, although does not cancel out justification, it can upset a person's faith and bring on guilt feelings that hinders their fellowship with God. This is why we have 1 John 1:9 which tells us that all we have to do is to confess our sin (in other words, agree with God that what he did in the flesh is sin), and God is faithful and just to forgive the sin and cleanse the person from all unrighteousness.

Confession should be made directly to God, because He is the only one who can forgive sin. Formal confession to a human priest instead of God is a form of idolatry, and a fellow sinner (which that priest is) cannot forgive your sins if he needs God to forgive his. Confession to a priest might make you feel better and less guilty but it has no moral value to God whatsoever.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm not at all so sure about OSAS (as observable from a temporal viewpoint). There is certainly a great deal of scriptural warning about willfully committing sin, too much to dash it off as just maintaining appearances.

As I read Hebrews 6 and other scripture, it seems to me possible for a person with great intent and deliberation to reject salvation.

The problem is the concept of "losing" salvation. "Rejection" is not "losing."

"Losing" is what you do with your car keys. You intend to have them, you thought you had them, but when you get to your car door, you look and discover that you don't have them after all.

That seems to be the Roman Catholic concept of "losing" salvation--that it can be done inadvertently.

I don't think that's the case. I know for me, the Holy Spirit is like a stereotypical Jewish mother when it comes to warning me from danger. Yes, there are times I've told the Holy Spirit to back off and let me do what I want to do, but I sure hear about it. That is just for occasional sin, though, from which it's still possible to repent. But done often enough--there is the concept of the "seared conscious," having gone too far and reaching the Hebrews 6 point.

 

[GenemZ]

I'm not at all so sure about OSAS (as observable from a temporal viewpoint). There is certainly a great deal of scriptural warning about willfully committing sin, too much to dash it off as just maintaining appearances.

As I read Hebrews 6 and other scripture, it seems to me possible for a person with great intent and deliberation to reject salvation.

Hebrews 6, just because it mentions the word 'repentance' does not have to mean its referring to getting, or losing salvation.

The book of Hebrews was target specific. Its was written to the apostate Church in Jerusalem as a warning because of its great apostasy. It was written only a short time before Jerusalem was destroyed by Rome by God's disciplining of them.

If you recall? When Paul went back to Jerusalem.. he was told how all the the Jerusalem church was zealous for the 'Law.' They were rejecting Grace. On top of that? Some convinced Paul to join them and enter the Temple for an elaborate ritual that was to end with an expensive *blood sacrifice!* It was in complete defiance of the blood of Christ.... and a mockery of living by grace. Paul went into prison because of his reverting back under the Law and remained in chains for years to follow. The Hebrews in Jerusalem God was angry with. In 70AD General Titus was God's servant in administering God's discipline on the hard headed religious Jewish believers who refused the truth of the new dispensation.

Hebrews 6 was also warning to the few faithful not to waste time with trying to reason with those apostate Jewish believers. For they had been partakers in the Spirit and tasted of the heavenly gift. They had experienced an encounter with God's presence in their lives. Warning the faithful that since all these apostates already knew too much to be with excuse... that they should simply pursue for themselves the things that accompany maturing in Christ. For at that point? It was impossible to bring them back to repentance. For they had become hardened in their great apostasy. That is why it says it was impossible to bring them back to repentance. "Repentance" means to change ones mind which leads to accepting correction!

Hebrews 6 had nothing to do with losing one's eternal salvation. But, if believers choose to follow after false teaching after they were saved, they will lose their 'temporal' salvation. They lost theirs when Titus tore their city apart and killed many. But, they ended up in Heaven with zero to show for how the glorified Christ in time... That is why 1 Cor 3:11-15 tells us that certain believers will pass through the fire with only their skin on their back when Jesus evaluates their works performed when saved. They will LOSE their eternal rewards.. But, not their salvation!

11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw,
13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be
revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has
been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder
will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through
the flames.​

 

[Doug Melven]

Ephesians 1:13 In Him you trusted after you heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation. In whom, having believed you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise 13 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession to the praise of His glory.

After we believed we were sealed with the Holy Spirit until Jesus comes back to redeem us. Not just sealed until we decide we don't want to be sealed, but sealed until Jesus Christ says so.

When we understand what has been done for us we will love Jesus Christ more and more.
Those who want to continue in sin don't understand what has been done for them.

 

[thecolorsblend]

I see.... that's the problem. Not doing your own thinking. Ignoring the Word of God when it disavows the dogma you want to accept. That's not good when you appear before the Lord.

BTW.... For a short while I used to attend another Catholic Bible study with my brother and sister in law that was given by the Marion Brothers. There was a given time given during the study when anyone who wanted to could stand and read a passage out loud for all attending to hear.

One night I stood up. I read the exact same passage I presented to you here to you.

You should have heard the audible sighs of relief being expressed when I finished.



"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will
of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall
lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes
in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Jn 6:38-40



They got it.. deeply.

No offense is intended here. But is this supposed to be a drop the mic moment or something? Because the passage you quoted from St. John is hardly an endorsement of OSAS doctrine. God's will is that none be lost. That's hardly a promise that none actually will be lost... a reality which Our Lord recognized in St. Matthew 7 when He stated that narrow is the way.

In the final analysis, OSAS requires us to believe that one's personal conduct has no bearing whatsoever on the condition of their soul. Considering that Our Lord gave us identifying criteria (again in St. Matthew 7), I find OSAS to be completely untenable.

 

[Not David]

I see.... that's the problem. Not doing your own thinking. Ignoring the Word of God when it disavows the dogma you want to accept. That's not good when you appear before the Lord.

BTW.... For a short while I used to attend another Catholic Bible study with my brother and sister in law that was given by the Marion Brothers. There was a given time given during the study when anyone who wanted to could stand and read a passage out loud for all attending to hear.

One night I stood up. I read the exact same passage I presented to you here to you.

You should have heard the audible sighs of relief being expressed when I finished.

"For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will
of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall
lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes
in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” Jn 6:38-40

​

They got it.. deeply.

Unlike you, they believed the Lord Jesus Christ. It was His words.

But, you do not? Careful.. those Catholics will leave you to be without excuse.

You can always reconsider while you yet have breath... Its what the Bible calls "repentance."

"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me
I will never drive away." Jn 6:37​

Have a nice Day.

Besides the obvious fact that no one in the History of Christianity taught OSAS until Calvin, the verses don't say anything about not falling from grace. God also wills no one to commit adultery but people still do it since it is called a will of desire not of action.
"Whoever comes to me I will never drive away" doesn't say that we can't get away from God.

 

[Doug Melven]

Besides the obvious fact that no one in the History of Christianity taught OSAS until Calvin, the verses don't say anything about not falling from grace. God also wills no one to commit adultery but people still do it since it is called a will of desire not of action.
"Whoever comes to me I will never drive away" doesn't say that we can't get away from God.

Verse 39 says Jesus will lose nothing that the Father gives Him.
And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

As far as OSAS not being taught till Calvin, there were many versions of salvation taught in the first 3 centuries.
There were even some who taught the heresy of Universalism, everybody is going to be saved.
Clement of Alexandria taught Universalism.

 

[ewq1938]

Verse 39 says Jesus will lose nothing that the Father gives Him.

It doesn't say that. It says he would not lose what he was given....that does not and can not apply to other things or people because it is specific to what was given at that time. It's in the past tense not the future. "that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing"

 

[Doug Melven]

It doesn't say that. It says he would not lose what he was given....that does not and can not apply to other things or people because it is specific to what was given at that time. It's in the past tense not the future. "that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing"

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

When you look at the verse in context you can see hat your interpretation makes no sense.
What you are saying is that nobody in the future from the time this was spoken would belong to Christ and be raised up at the last day. Only those who have believed on Jesus up to that point would be resurrected.
Thomas would not be resurrected because he did not believe until after Jesus' resurrection.

 

[ewq1938]

When you look at the verse in context you can see hat your interpretation makes no sense.

"hath given me"

 

[Geralt]

'ver clear' ? i doubt it. its all in the proper reading of sentences and definition of words.

 

[Not David]

"hath given me"

And people use the verse "The Father is Greater than I" to justify their belief that Jesus is not God. Why not read without your Calvinist eyes and recognize it doesn't say that one cannot leave the Father out of his own will? Does it mean that if one rejects God, he will still go to heaven?
Why not read what the Apostle Paul said about not being sure of his own salvation:
Phi 3:10-15 “My goal is to know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, assuming that I will somehow reach the resurrection from among the dead. Not that I have already reached the goal or am already fully mature, but I make every effort to take hold of it because I also have been taken hold of by Christ Jesus. Brothers, I do not consider myself to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: forgetting what is behind and reaching forward to what is ahead, I pursue as my goal the prize promised by God’s heavenly call in Christ Jesus. Therefore, all who are mature should think this way. And if you think differently about anything, God will reveal this to you also.”

 

[ewq1938]

And people use the verse "The Father is Greater than I" to justify their belief that Jesus is not God.

Yeah that's off topic.

Ever heard of the Apostasy? That destroys OSAS. Many verses do.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here we are warned that those who

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.

Perhaps they committed the unforgivable sin as the verses do mention that it is impossible to renew them to repentance:

Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Commit this sin and salvation is lost! There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.


1 Timothy 1:19 Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked.

A person's faith can be shipwrecked which means it was flawed and sank and is no more.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we stay true to Him, He will stay true to us but if we deny Him He will deny us.

 

[Not David]

Yeah that's off topic.

Ever heard of the Apostasy? That destroys OSAS. Many verses do.

Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Here we are warned that those who

1: were once enlightened
2: and have tasted of the heavenly gift
3: and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost
4: and have tasted the good word of God
5: and the powers of the world to come

can not only lose their salvation but can also be where it is impossible for them to be forgiven. This is the ultimate example of a saved person losing their salvation.

Perhaps they committed the unforgivable sin as the verses do mention that it is impossible to renew them to repentance:

Mat_12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Commit this sin and salvation is lost! There is no once saved always will be saved in the bible.


1 Timothy 1:19 Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked.

A person's faith can be shipwrecked which means it was flawed and sank and is no more.

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we stay true to Him, He will stay true to us but if we deny Him He will deny us.

Wait, I thought you were in favor of OSAS?