Speaking in tongues -- revisited -- your thoughts?

[Billy Evmur]

Nobody can tell me that John Bunyan did not write Pilgrim's progress except by the supernatural gift of wisdom.

See in Bunyan's preface he explains how Pilgrim's progress came to be written He says it came one line at a time and as soon as started writing the thought started coming in a constant stream.

That is just how prophecy and interpretation of tongues come....one sentence at a time, as soon as you start to speak in faith the sentences follow on one after another.

It's just like everything else God does, like prayer, we stand up to pray in faith with nothing more than a sentence and then when we open our mouth the prayer wells up line by line....same with extempore preaching.

It is not mystic or magic it is the way God works.

 

[ItIsFinished!]

No need for "speaking in tongues " at this juncture or future junctures.
It had its place and time , and now has ceased on a Scriptural level .
The Word is complete.
⚘
All glory to God now and forever.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No need for "speaking in tongues " at this juncture or future junctures.
It had its place and time , and now has ceased on a Scriptural level .
The Word is complete.
⚘
All glory to God now and forever.

The Word is complete...the Word says we should all speak in tongues

 

[Saint Steven]

No need for "speaking in tongues " at this juncture or future junctures.
It had its place and time , and now has ceased on a Scriptural level .
The Word is complete.
⚘
All glory to God now and forever.

Is it the last days? Have you been called?

Acts 2:17-18
“‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your young men will see visions,
your old men will dream dreams.
18 Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days,
and they will prophesy.

Acts 2:39
The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—
for all whom the Lord our God will call.”

 

[tdidymas]

All your arguments are simply emotional or intellectual, nobody is showing by scripture that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

IMO we are not talking about all the gifts of the Spirit ceasing, but only the sign gifts, namely the miraculous gifts of working miracles, healing, prophecy, tongues and interpretation. Not that all miracles and healing ceased, but no man now has any of these gifts working through him as an individual as it was in the days of the apostles.

Heb 2:4

God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

If we examine the context of this verse carefully, we can observe some things about it:
1. He is writing as if the miraculous events which were prolific in the days of the apostles is in the past.
2. He is excluding himself from among those people who performed those miracles.
3. Those gifts were given according to God's will.

So then in observation of the scripture, we must consider that scripture is unified, and therefore complies with the law of non-contradiction. Therefore, when Paul wrote that he "would that all spoke in tongues" and "desire the best gifts, especially that you may prophesy" that he had in mind God giving those gifts as He willed to give them. We can desire gifts, but it is up to God to give them. All we can do is wait for Him. The problem with seeking the gift of tongues in these times has several issues:
1. Those who seek to speak in tongues usually have the idea of taking up the gift, because they are told that they should speak it, that all Christians ought to do it, or even that it is evidence of having the Holy Spirit which implies that if one doesn't speak it then the Holy Spirit has not indwelt. This is abjectly unbiblical ideas and practices.
2. People are generally confused as to the difference between what is commonly practiced today and the gift of tongues described in the NT. Many justify the difference by trying to claim that the nature of tongues changed between Acts 2 and 1 Cor. 14, but there is no valid Biblical precedent for such an idea.
3. Conceited egos get in the way of serious Bible study, since people generally have pride and fear about what they claim to believe. This is how we get this forum titled "Controversial..." and why people get inflamed when their personal opinions are "stepped on."
TD

 

[tdidymas]

The Word is complete...the Word says we should all speak in tongues

No, it doesn't say that. Give the chapter and verse you are referring to.
TD

 

[Gr8Grace]

But you have added to scripture.

The scripture exhorts us to earnestly desire the higher gifts, especially that we might prophesy...that we might all speak in tongues.

There is no scripture to say that these gifts have ceased or that they will until the perfect comes, when we shall no longer see as through a glass darkly but shall understand fully what we now know in part.

Do YOU have total knowledge? do you see the Lord face to face?

How is it do you think that once they formed the full canon of scripture....and I believe only the scriptures, how come the church plunged into more than a 1,000 years of utter darkness? Roman Catholicism reigned.

We both have not used scripture quotes. Obviously, both of us have gone through this before. So show the scripture that I have 'added' to.

Speaking unlearned langues will cease. 70AD when "This people/unbelieving Jews" were destroyed.

Prophecy( the incomplete and unwritten truth of the Gospel) and knowledge(the incomplete and unwritten truth of bible doctrine) shall be done away when the bible is complete. 96 AD.

Now we have the perfect, complete canon. No need for special prophecy and special knowledge. Tongues ceased when Jerusalem fell, and God went to the gentiles to advance His gospel.

 

[Saint Steven]

… So then in observation of the scripture...

Observe this scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

 

[Saint Steven]

... Tongues ceased when ... God went to the gentiles...

Not familiar with the house of Cornelius?

 

[Gr8Grace]

All your arguments are simply emotional or intellectual, nobody is showing by scripture that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

You haven't used any scripture yet. Show us some scripture that the MIRACULOUS gifts have not ceased and been done away with.

God still miraculously does things. But a man no longer has those miraculous gifts.

This is why pastor/teachers are held to a high account.........their gift is teaching Gods FINISHED word correctly to those of us who don't have the gift of teaching.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Not familiar with the house of Cornelius?

Not familiar with when it was written?

 

[tdidymas]

Observe this scripture.

1 Corinthians 2:3-5
I came to you in weakness with great fear and trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power.

The Corinthians needed miracles (the sign gifts) for authentication of Paul's message, since it was unlikely they would be persuaded by words only. They did not have the New Testament at that time, and it is unlikely that most of the Corinthians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures. But in this age, God is not authenticating messages from individuals because the true gospel message is authenticated by the authority of the the New Testament which we have had for 2000 years, and the whole world recognizes it as the Christian authority. In my experience and research, everywhere that authentication of miracles is testified, turns out such testimony is usually exaggerated and sometimes beyond reasonable acceptance.

But in the context of 1 Cor. 2, Paul is comparing himself with his human weakness with how great God is, which is the reason why he is mentioning the demonstration of the Spirit. To claim that since Paul wrote these words, we then should seek the demonstration of miraculous power in our churches, or worse, to claim it when in fact it is not happening, that is a misrepresentation of what Paul is saying. In fact, Paul rebukes the Corinthians for the misuse of the gifts, if indeed it was authentic gifts that they were misusing. Misuse is a very easy thing to do, and so is misapplying the scripture. What is difficult is to actually do what Paul commanded, and that is exercise restraint in the spirit of love. We may ask for miracles from God, but we cannot "name and claim" them in any valid sense. We must wait on God to give what He wills.
TD

 

[Lost4words]

sure he can...it is a deceived position to disagree with Paul.....his word [which he never in any way detracted] was "I would that ye did all speak in tongues"

Yes. I only speak one language though.

 

[Billy Evmur]

The Corinthians needed miracles (the sign gifts) for authentication of Paul's message, since it was unlikely they would be persuaded by words only. They did not have the New Testament at that time, and it is unlikely that most of the Corinthians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures. But in this age, God is not authenticating messages from individuals because the true gospel message is authenticated by the authority of the the New Testament which we have had for 2000 years, and the whole world recognizes it as the Christian authority. In my experience and research, everywhere that authentication of miracles is testified, turns out such testimony is usually exaggerated and sometimes beyond reasonable acceptance.

But in the context of 1 Cor. 2, Paul is comparing himself with his human weakness with how great God is, which is the reason why he is mentioning the demonstration of the Spirit. To claim that since Paul wrote these words, we then should seek the demonstration of miraculous power in our churches, or worse, to claim it when in fact it is not happening, that is a misrepresentation of what Paul is saying. In fact, Paul rebukes the Corinthians for the misuse of the gifts, if indeed it was authentic gifts that they were misusing. Misuse is a very easy thing to do, and so is misapplying the scripture. What is difficult is to actually do what Paul commanded, and that is exercise restraint in the spirit of love. We may ask for miracles from God, but we cannot "name and claim" them in any valid sense. We must wait on God to give what He wills.
TD

Of course we are much greater than Paul, we do not need for God to demonstrate His power

Words of men's wisdom is perfectly adequate.

….not

 

[Billy Evmur]

You haven't used any scripture yet. Show us some scripture that the MIRACULOUS gifts have not ceased and been done away with.

God still miraculously does things. But a man no longer has those miraculous gifts.

This is why pastor/teachers are held to a high account.........their gift is teaching Gods FINISHED word correctly to those of us who don't have the gift of teaching.

You can't show by scripture that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have not ceased...the church ceased from preaching the truth and God will only demonstrate truth. They had already started worshipping the bread...how can God work with that?

Get back to bible truth and you will have a bible faith...and that includes the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Billy Evmur]

No, it doesn't say that. Give the chapter and verse you are referring to.
TD

"I would that ye did all speak in tongues" Paul never retracted that statement "earnestly desire the higher gifts but especially that ye may prophesy." he never detracted that statement.

"forbid not speaking in tongues and quench not the Spirit"

 

[Billy Evmur]

You haven't used any scripture yet. Show us some scripture that the MIRACULOUS gifts have not ceased and been done away with.

God still miraculously does things. But a man no longer has those miraculous gifts.

This is why pastor/teachers are held to a high account.........their gift is teaching Gods FINISHED word correctly to those of us who don't have the gift of teaching.

By what power then does anybody minister today? if not by the gift of the Holy Spirit?

it is all just wisdom of men...that's why so few get saved...until the Pentecostals come along.

 

[Emli]

I have never spoken in tongues myself, but I do believe that there is a real gift of speaking in tongues. There are also demonic tongues, and we can make up languages as well. I used to make up my own languages when I was a child, which sounded a lot like the type of tongues we see in some videos, and I have spoken in demonic tongues, which is also common in some videos. What do these two situations have in common? Disorder and chaos, no good Scriptural foundation.

But I have also heard true tongues being spoken, which were definitely from the Holy Spirit, spoken by those who truly know the Lord and His Word. There was nothing demonic about it. I haven't gotten the gift myself, because I have been urged by God to study the Bible a lot more when I have prayed about it.

What I do see among those who claim that all tongues are demonic is a deep fear of the devil. We live in times of great deception, with many false teachers and false prophets, doctrines of men and doctrines of demons, but God is still sovereign. He is still in control. If someone earnestly seek Him and study His Word, He will respond, He will lead us and teach us. He will intervene in our lives, and He will not let the devil deceive us for too long. Those who say that all tongues, all gifts, are of the devil are giving way too much power to the devil. He is a real foe, and he has real power, real signs and wonders, but he is nothing at all compared to God. If someone fears the Lord, they don't need to fear the devil, because God will strengthen and protect them, keep them alert and awake.

Out of all the gifts, the gift of discerning of spirits is the most important one, and usually the last one people seek unfortunately. But that gift (and I have it myself) reveals whether something is of God or not, and we should all seek it, and put all of our faith and trust in God.

Pointing at everything that you disagree with, saying it is of the devil is idolatry, because you are making the devil bigger than God, taking what is of God and claiming that the devil has done it. You are lowering God, and calling Him a liar, and elevating the devil, putting a whole lot more faith in him than in God, fearing him a lot more than you fear God.

If we see someone preach the true Gospel (Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Messiah, Word of God come in the flesh, who died on the Cross for our sins and rose again and conquered death, grace through faith, repentance and death to self, baptism, sanctification, saying that we should study the entire Bible, no false doctrines etc), and Jesus saves a lot of people through that person, no one would say that is the devil doing it. But then the one preaching prays in tongues, then suddenly the devil was behind pointing a lot of people to Christ, preaching sound doctrine? It makes absolutely no sense.

I have cast out many demons by the Spirit, and seen people be set free by Jesus Christ, and of course the critics come running saying it was of the devil (which may be the unforgivable sin btw). Same with healing, a gift that God has given me. Someone was miraculously healed, praise God! BUT, some doctrines say that the sign gifts no longer exists, so of course that was the devil... ???????? People, stop taking what is of God and claim it's of Satan! It makes no sense, and it is idolatry! The devil would never, ever want anyone to be saved by Jesus Christ!

We have to judge a tree by its fruit, not by signs and wonders or lack thereof and not by works. If a person's spirit points people to Jesus, calls Him Lord and does what He has commanded, shows the fruit of the Holy Spirit, preach repentance from sins and everything else that God has commanded us in Scripture, that is the Holy Spirit. If it doesn't, it is NOT the Holy Spirit. If the one with the Holy Spirit does something that you are unfamiliar with or unsure about, don't automatically claim it's of the devil.

The way I see it, if someone seeks signs and wonders, or their own will and their own glory and their own name known, they will find the devil. But if someone seeks God, His will, His glory and to make His name known, they will find Him, and if it is His plan for them, signs and wonders may follow. They did for me. Now, if anyone wants to test my faith to see if I'm a true Christian, go ahead! I'm not perfect in any way, but I know Jesus. I surrendered my entire life to Him and I have chosen to live according to His will, for His Kingdom, for His Name the rest of my life, because I know that God and the Gospel is all that matters. It is His will be done, which I pray every, single day and mean it. He gave me some gifts and some signs and wonders follow me where He leads me. If you want to claim that the devil is doing them (healing, casting out demons, stopping the rain and the storms, etc) go ahead, but that isn't going to change what God is doing.

We all have to be very careful in our faith, making sure that we are led by the Word and by the Holy Spirit, and also make sure that what we see is of God or not. But we also have to make sure to not end up in fear, thinking that everything is of the devil.

 

[Saint Steven]

Not familiar with when it was written?

Check these dates.

A.D. 100 - Eusebius (Church Historian):
Writing to the preaching evangelists who were yet living, Eusebius says:
"Of those that flourished in these times, Quadratus is said to have been distinguished
for his prophetical gifts. There were many others, also, noted in these times who held
rank in the apostolic succession... the Holy Spirit also wrought many wonders as yet
through them, so that as the Gospel was heard, men in crowds voluntarily and eagerly
embraced the true faith with their whole minds."

A.D. 115-202 - Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a pupil of Polycarp, who was a disciple of the apostle John.
He wrote in his book "Against Heresies", Book V, vi.: "In like manner do we also hear
many brethren in the church who possess prophetic gifts, and who through the Spirit
speak all kinds of languages, and bring to light, for the general benefit, the hidden
things of men and declare the mysteries of God, who also the apostles term spiritual."

A.D. 300 - The Early Martyrs:
The early martyrs enjoyed these gifts. Dean Ferrar, in his book "Darkness to Dawn" states: "Even for the minutest allusions and particulars I have contemporary authority." He refers to the persecuted Christians in Rome singing and speaking in unknown tongues.

A.D. 390 - Chrysostom of Constantinople:
Chrysostom, Bishop of Constantinople, writes: "Whoever was baptised in apostolic days,
he straightway spoke with tongues, for since on their coming over from idols, without any clear knowledge or training in the Scriptures, they at once received the Spirit, not that they saw the Spirit, for He is invisible, but God's grace bestowed some sensible proof of His energy, and one straightway spoke in the Persian language, another in the Roman, another in the Indian, another in some other tongues, and this made manifest to them that were without that it was the Spirit in the very person speaking. Wherefore the apostle calls it the manifestation of the Spirit which is given to every man to profit withal."

A.D. 400 - Augustine of Hippo:
Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, one of the four great fathers of the Latin Church and
considered the greatest of them all: "We still do what the apostles did when they laid
hands on the Samaritans and called down the Holy Spirit on them in the laying-on of hands. It is expected that converts should speak with new tongues."

 

[Saint Steven]

The Corinthians needed miracles (the sign gifts) for authentication of Paul's message, since it was unlikely they would be persuaded by words only. They did not have the New Testament at that time, and it is unlikely that most of the Corinthians were familiar with the Jewish scriptures. But in this age, God is not authenticating messages from individuals because the true gospel message is authenticated by the authority of the the New Testament which we have had for 2000 years, and the whole world recognizes it as the Christian authority. In my experience and research, everywhere that authentication of miracles is testified, turns out such testimony is usually exaggerated and sometimes beyond reasonable acceptance.

But in the context of 1 Cor. 2, Paul is comparing himself with his human weakness with how great God is, which is the reason why he is mentioning the demonstration of the Spirit. To claim that since Paul wrote these words, we then should seek the demonstration of miraculous power in our churches, or worse, to claim it when in fact it is not happening, that is a misrepresentation of what Paul is saying. In fact, Paul rebukes the Corinthians for the misuse of the gifts, if indeed it was authentic gifts that they were misusing. Misuse is a very easy thing to do, and so is misapplying the scripture. What is difficult is to actually do what Paul commanded, and that is exercise restraint in the spirit of love. We may ask for miracles from God, but we cannot "name and claim" them in any valid sense. We must wait on God to give what He wills.
TD

The Corinthians needed miracles?
They were already "swinging from the chandeliers" when Paul wrote to them to bring some order.