Zechariah 14 speaks of the New Jerusalem

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
Supporter
May 19, 2015
125,492
28,587
73
GOD's country of Texas
Visit site
✟1,237,240.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Libertarian
Jesus states 'as the scripture has said'.
John 7:38 Whoever believes in me, asf the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.
What scripture is he referencing? Is it Zechariah 14:8?
Zechariah 14:8 On that day living waters shall flow out from Jerusalem
If it isn't zechariah 14:8, what other scriptures in the OT talk about the flow of living waters?
Isaiah 43:19 appears to casually mention it?
Jesus mentions Himself providing the living waters of eternal life.


Isaiah 43:19
"Behold! Doing a new thing; now she is sprouting; not ye are knowing her?
Indeed I am placing in wilderness a Way, in desolation streams/rivers".

John 14:6
Jesus is saying to him: "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life. No one is coming toward the Father except thru Me".


John 4

13 Jesus said to her, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again.
14 But whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst.

Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a fount of water springing up to eternal life.

John 7:37
In yet the last day, the great, of the feast, Jesus stood and cries-out, saying,
"If-ever any-one may be thirsting, let him be coming toward Me and be drinking"


Revelation 7:16

16 Never again will they hunger, and never will they thirst;
nor will the sun beat down upon them, nor any scorching heat.
17 For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd.

He will lead them to springs of living Water,
and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes


Revelation 21:
4 “And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying.
There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away,


6 And He said to me:" It Finished!.
I Am the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
I, to the one thirsting,
shall be giving out of the spring of the Water of the Life gratuitously".


 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: joyshirley
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I agree with the point you are making here via your examples. But as to John 7:38 and Zechariah 14:8 though, where in the NT is there confirmation, like you provided above per Matthew 2 and Jeremiah 31, that John 7:38 is the fulfilling of Zechariah 14:8?

If Jesus' own words formed from his own lips to utter aloud the phrase "as the Scripture has said" are not confirmation enough for you, then I have no idea what sort of confirmation you would hold authoritative over His?

Perhaps you believe Jesus was mistaken and He was not quoting actual OT scripture?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Let's see if we can work on making some sense of it then.



Setting aside Hinder and former for a moment... the generic "sea" in scripture is often applied to the Nations that are not Israel, namely, the Gentiles.

Revelation 17:15 clearly exemplifies the fact that sea or waters represents foreign nations: “The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.”

There are many other examples in the Bible in which words like sea or waters clearly represent nations foreign to the specific kingdom addressed (Daniel 7; 9:26; 11:10, 40; Psalm 65:7; 144:7, Isaiah 8:7-8; 17:12; 60:5; Jeremiah 46:7-8; 47:1-2; 51:55-56; Ezekiel 26:3; Nahum 1:8):

Reach down your hand from on high; deliver me and rescue me from the mighty waters, from the hands of foreigners[.]” (Psalm 144:7)

Woe to the many nations that rage—they rage like the raging sea! Woe to the peoples who roar—they roar like the roaring of great waters! (Isaiah 17:12)

Then you will look and be radiant, your heart will throb and swell with joy; the wealth on the seas will be brought to you, to you the riches of the nations will come. (Isaiah 60:5)

“Who is this that rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters? Egypt rises like the Nile, like rivers of surging waters. She says, ‘I will rise and cover the earth; I will destroy cities and their people.’ (Jeremiah 46:7-8)

This is the word of the Lord that came to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the Philistines before Pharaoh attacked Gaza: This is what the Lord says: “See how the waters are rising in the north; they will become an overflowing torrent. They will overflow the land and everything in it, the towns and those who live in them. The people will cry out; all who dwell in the land will wail (Jeremiah 47:1-2)

The Lord will destroy Babylon; he will silence her noisy din. Waves of enemies will rage like great waters; the roar of their voices will resound. A destroyer will come against Babylon; her warriors will be captured, and their bows will be broken. (Jeremiah 51:55-56)

[T]herefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves. (Ezekiel 26:3)

As illustrated in some of the quotes above, this imagery also extends to related words like rivers or flood. In Isaiah 8:7-8 the coming of the Assyrian army to Israel is pictured as the mighty Euphrates overflowing its banks: “Therefore the Lord is about to bring against them the mighty floodwaters of the Euphrates—the king of Assyria with all his pomp. It will overflow all its channels, run over all its banks and sweep on into Judah, swirling over it, passing through it and reaching up to the neck.” Similar symbolism is found in Daniel 11:10 and Daniel 11:40:

His sons will prepare for war and assemble a great army, which will sweep on like an irresistible flood and carry the battle as far as his fortress. (Daniel 11:10)

At the time of the end the king of the South will engage him in battle, and the king of the North will storm out against him with chariots and cavalry and a great fleet of ships. He will invade many countries and sweep through them like a flood. (Daniel11:40)

The same imagery is also found in Nahum 1:8: “but with an overwhelming flood he will make an end of Nineveh.” The flood of Nahum 1:8 represents the allied armies of the Babylonians, Susianans, Scythians and Medes that destroyed Nineveh in 612 B.C. The same meaning is also implicit in Joel 2:9. Here an invading army is pictured breaking through a city like a surge of flood waters: “They rush upon the city; they run along the wall. They climb into the houses; like thieves they enter through the windows.”

The fact that sea represents foreign nations is not just limited to the Bible, this meaning is also found in extra-biblical Hebrew sacred texts like the Talmud and the Dead Sea Scrolls. In the Talmud foreign nations are literally called “provinces of the sea.”1 Hymn 7 of the Dead Sea Scrolls depicts a foreign besieging army in flood or water imagery: “And I said Mighty men have pitched their camps against me with all their weapons of war. . . . The clamour of their shouting is like the bellowing of many waters, like a storm of destruction devouring a multitude of men; as their waves rear up[.]” Furthermore, in 1QpNah 1:3-4 (4Q169) of the Dead Sea Scrolls the sea in Nahum 1:4 is interpreted to represent the Kittim, the Romans: “’the sea’ is all the Ki[ttim . . .].”The Anchor Bible: Revelation A New Translation With Introduction And Commentary, (Garden City, New York: Doubleday & Company, Inc., 1975), 286." title="" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">2 Likewise in Hymn 14 of the Dead Sea Scrolls flood is also used as a metaphor for invading armies. And the same meaning is implied in 4Q437 (combined with 4Q434-5) of the Dead Sea Scrolls which mentions “the stream of the gentiles.” Concerning the fact that water imagery symbolizes foreigners, G. K. Beale writes the following:

The metaphor of “many waters” also stands for antagonistic nations in Targ. Cant. 8:7; Targ. Isa. 21:1; Midr. Pss. 93:4-7; Midr. Rab. Num. 2.16; Midr. Rab. Cant. 8.7, §1; likewise Targ. Isa. 8:7 (“numerous as the waters’). The “many waters” of Ps. 18:16 is rendered by the targum as “many people[.]”The Book of Revelation: A Commentary on the Greek Text, (Grand Rapids: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2013), 882." title="" style="margin-right: 0px; margin-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; padding-left: 0px; border: 0px; vertical-align: baseline; outline: none; color: rgb(33, 117, 155);">3

So, should Zechariah be using "Sea" the same way John uses it to mean peoples, multitudes, nations and languages, it should be simple to make sense applying it to the receivers of the Outpouring of the Holy Spirit.



Which peoples of what city first received the Living waters of the Holy Spirit and where did they begin spreading the living waters gospel from? Jerusalem of course, which makes PERFECT sense.



No, I still believe it's your paradigm.


I read your post here but see we are unable to get on the same page here. You approach these things your way, and I approach these things my way. More of my argument would be the following.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.


Let's start with this verse then. What might be a fulfillment of this? How about the following?

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.


How can Revelation 11:15 not lead to----And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one?

Per my understanding, though maybe not per your's as well, Revelation 11:15 is meaning after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast. And speaking of that beast, how can Zechariah 14:9 already be true before and while the beast reigns for 42 months?

Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Does this sound like, that during this 42 months, the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one? If it does, it must be meaning this beast then since the earth sees him as the one lord at the time, the fact the world worships it. But we know Zechariah 14:9 is not meaning this beast though, but is referring to God Himself. If Zechariah 14:9 is meaning as of the 7th trumpet, and that the 7th trumpet is after the time of the 42 month reign of the beast, then so must Zechariah 14:8 be referring to the same era of time as well.

As to John 7:38 though, this verse was already applicable during Jesus' day, apparently. Per my position Revelation 11:15 is yet to be fulfilled, which then means so is Zechariah 14:8 yet to be fulfilled, therefore John 7:38 couldn't possibly be referring to Zechariah 14:8.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If Jesus' own words formed from his own lips to utter aloud the phrase "as the Scripture has said" are not confirmation enough for you, then I have no idea what sort of confirmation you would hold authoritative over His?

Perhaps you believe Jesus was mistaken and He was not quoting actual OT scripture?


The timing in Zechariah 14:8 is meaning as of and after the 2nd coming. I'm convinced of that. Or should I say, Scripture convinces me of that, as I tried to show via my post before this one.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I read your post here but see we are unable to get on the same page here. You approach these things your way, and I approach these things my way. More of my argument would be the following.

Zechariah 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
I'm curious, if you do not believe this describes a present reality, who or what would you claim has power and authority on earth today ABOVE Jesus?

Let's start with this verse then. What might be a fulfillment of this?

How about these?
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.

Seems that seals the deal right there, no?
Was Jesus mistaken or premature in saying this?

Revelation 1:5
...Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, AND THE PRINCE OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH


"Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, AFTER angels and authorities and powers had been made subject to him" (1 Peter 3:22)


Lest start with why you believe the above verses are either not true or premature in their proclamation.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The timing in Zechariah 14:8 is meaning as of and after the 2nd coming. I'm convinced of that. Or should I say, Scripture convinces me of that, as I tried to show via my post before this one.

The fact remains, unless one can find another OT prophesy about the arrival of Living Waters, Zechariah 14:8 is the ONLY verse that Jesus was claiming fulfillment of in John 7:38.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Seville90210

Psalm 118:26
Aug 4, 2018
357
119
Los Angeles
✟22,766.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
There won't be a resurrection and that happens before any rapture of the church.

Your first sentence is already an error, as is the rest.

The dead in Christ rises first follow by those alive in Christ. Resurrection first, rapture second.
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The fact remains, unless one can find another OT prophesy about the arrival of Living Waters, Zechariah 14:8 is the ONLY verse that Jesus was claiming fulfillment of in John 7:38.


Zechariah 14:8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

In that day, in both verses, it is referring to the same era of time.

Verse 9 says of that day---And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


If Zechariah 14:8-9 is already true when Revelation 13:8 is being fulfilled, how does one explain all that dwell upon the earth are worshiping the beast rather the one LORD indicated in Zechariah 14:9? Worshiping God and worshiping the beast, this does not add up to only one Lord, it adds up to two. Why contradict the texts involved in order to get your conclusions to seemingly work? Is that the way truth is derived, by contradicting any texts involved in order to find it?
 
Upvote 0

DavidPT

Well-Known Member
Sep 26, 2016
8,601
2,106
Texas
✟196,410.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This is not the time of when Jesus Christ returns for the church.
Look at the first word of Matthew 25. Then
Then shall
as in - read the last part of chapter 24 about the lake of fire - then add the next scenes to that time


So you are basically saying---When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him---that this involves the 2nd coming, but that the 'then that follows the comma, that this is a gap, thus the rest of that verse and the remainder of that chapter, these things get fulfilled after this gap is finished?
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
If Zechariah 14:8-9 is already true when Revelation 13:8 is being fulfilled, how does one explain all that dwell upon the earth are worshiping the beast rather the one LORD indicated in Zechariah 14:9? Worshiping God and worshiping the beast, this does not add up to only one Lord, it adds up to two. Why contradict the texts involved in order to get your conclusions to seemingly work? Is that the way truth is derived, by contradicting any texts involved in order to find it?

Fact:
He is the now ruling king:

"Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5)

"Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers have been made subject to him" (1 Peter 3:22)

To address your supposed conundrum, Jesus, the God-King, has chosen by his sovereign will to allow the wicked to continue alongside the righteous in his kingdom: "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field. But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away. But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also. The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, `Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' And he said to them, `An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, `Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?' But he said, `No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. `Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn. (Matt 13:24-30)

He his converting people out of the pagan world of unbelief and transferring them into his kingdom ("He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" - Col 1:13). He is making these converts the salt and light of the world and the city on the hill--as man is intended to be. He is redeeming them.

Jesus has chosen to allow the present history of his kingdom to admit sinners, and to convert many of them from evil to good. But for sure, even in this permission, God is ruling over all kings and men TODAY (Daniel 4:25,34-35; Ps. 22:28; Dan 2:20-21).
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟793,718.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The prophet Daniel prophesied that the kingdom was to come in the “last days” (Daniel 2:28), which would be the days of Rome – the fourth beast in Daniels’s vision – and at that time, the “saints would possess the kingdom”. (Daniel 2, 7)

Jesus arrived in the last days (Hebrews 1:1) when Rome (Daniel’s fourth beast) was in power (Luke 2:1-2), Satan was bound/judged/cast out by Christ's incarnational earthly ministry, reversing satan's dominion over the People of God, granting power over all darkness to the saints, and immediately enabling the gospel to spread to all nations.
(John 12:31 and Matt 12:28-29, Heb 2:14-15 and 1 John 3:8).

SCRIPTURE SAYS:
Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER is given unto me in heaven AND IN EARTH.

THE FUTURIST SAYS MATT 28:18 IS WRONG.

AGAIN, SCRIPTURE SAYS:
Revelation 1:5
...Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, AND THE PRINCE OF THE KINGS OF THE EARTH.

AND AGAIN, THE FUTURIST SAYS REV 1:5 IS WRONG

We, Christs Body, already rule and reign with Christ right now!!! It's a done deal. We are priests and Kings of a Kingdom that can never be conqured, ruling and reigning with our Lord for evermore.

SCRIPTURE SAYS He is the now ruling king:


"Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth" (Rev 1:5)

"Jesus Christ, who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been made subject to him" (1 Peter 3:22)

THE FUTURIST SAYS, NO HE IS NOT.

When faced with deciding which of these two polar opposite views to accept as true and correct, that of scripture or that of the futurist, I have to side with scripture, every time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BABerean2
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Seville90210

Psalm 118:26
Aug 4, 2018
357
119
Los Angeles
✟22,766.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
I placed the resurrection of the just as happening ahead of the rapture. You need to read my post again. How long is it till the resurrection of the just? Those of Revelation 14 that are keeping the faith of Jesus must die first. Our salvation...His appearing comes at the end of our faith.

Revelation 14 is not a resurrection. It's about Jesus coming in wrath to destroy God's enemies, with some of God's people being caught in the crossfire.

Revelation 14:19-20 King James Version (KJV)

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

BABerean2

Newbie
Supporter
May 21, 2014
20,614
7,484
North Carolina
✟893,665.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Revelation 14 is not a resurrection. It's about Jesus coming in wrath to destroy God's enemies, with some of God's people being caught in the crossfire.

Revelation 14:19-20 King James Version (KJV)

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.


Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


.
 
Upvote 0