Another take on the Rapture

Copperhead

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Romans 11:25-29 (NKJV) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

jgr, you implied that "all Israel" is the children of God and the promise. So then, based on verse 28, are the "all Israel" / "Children of God" then the enemies of the Ekklesia, the Body of Messiah?


 
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jgr

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Romans 11:25-29 (NKJV) For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion,
And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob;
27 For this is My covenant with them,
When I take away their sins.”
28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


The gifts and the calling are terms associated exclusively with those who have put their faith in Christ.

Upon whom does God bestow His gifts?

Romans 12:6
Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

1 Corinthians 12:1
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

1 Corinthians 12:4
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:9
To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

1 Corinthians 12:28
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:12
Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.

God's gifts were, and are, not bestowed upon Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
They are bestowed exclusively upon God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His gifts are irrevocable.


To whom is God's calling directed?

1 Corinthians 1:26
For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

1 Corinthians 7:20
Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Ephesians 1:18
The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,

Ephesians 4:4
There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Timothy 1:9
Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Hebrews 3:1
Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

God's calling was, and is, not directed to Paul's countrymen according to the flesh, enemies of the gospel.
It is directed exclusively to God's "all Israel" remnant of His Holy Chosen People -- His Church.
To them, and to no others, His calling is irrevocable.


Under no conditions or circumstances can unbelievers, enemies of the gospel, ever be the recipients of God's gifts and calling.
 
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jgr

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jgr, you implied that "all Israel" is the children of God and the promise. So then, based on verse 28, are the "all Israel" / "Children of God" then the enemies of the Ekklesia, the Body of Messiah?

Copperhead, Paul is continuing his description of the distinction between the two Israels.

Those who reject the gospel are its enemies.

Those who receive and believe the gospel -- the election -- are beloved.
 
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Copperhead

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Copperhead, Paul is continuing his description of the distinction between the two Israels.

Those who reject the gospel are its enemies.

Those who receive and believe the gospel -- the election -- are beloved.

No. Paul is elaborating on Isaiah 45:4 and Isaiah 65:9.....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

They are still the elect, for the sake of the Fathers... Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.... which is an unconditional covenant God made. The context of none of these passages suggest or imply believers or redeemed are in view.

Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

And that is elaborated again in Isaiah....

Jeremiah 31:35-37 (NKJV) Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.

Now, simple logic and basic grammatical sentence structure suggests that the one being referenced in that passage is physical, corporate Jacob. Not some spiritualized nonsense about children of God or whatever.
 
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BABerean2

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That eventually, all of corporate Israel will be saved.

How do you define "corporate Israel"?

Is it defined as all people inside a certain geographical or national boundary?

Is it defined as all those who have a certain amount of Jacob's DNA?

Or is it based on something else?

Does it happen near the time of Christ's Second Coming, or does it occur at His Second Coming?

.
 
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Douggg

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And therein is the big idea that many in the Church fail to acknowledge. Israel has a definite purpose still in God's plan.
I agree with your statement.

But there is a bigger picture that has to do with the Kingdom of God becoming the ruling kingdom here on earth. Satan and his angels rebellion goes back before there was an Israel and before man.

Ezekiel 28:
11: Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
 
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BABerean2

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They are still the elect, for the sake of the Fathers... Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.... which is an unconditional covenant God made. The context of none of these passages suggest or imply believers or redeemed are in view.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

.
 
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jgr

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No. Paul is elaborating on Isaiah 45:4 and Isaiah 65:9.....

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

They are still the elect, for the sake of the Fathers... Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.... which is an unconditional covenant God made. The context of none of these passages suggest or imply believers or redeemed are in view.

Romans 11:28-29 (NKJV) Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

And that is elaborated again in Isaiah....

Jeremiah 31:35-37 (NKJV) Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):
36 “If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the Lord,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”

37 Thus says the Lord:
“If heaven above can be measured,
And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel
For all that they have done, says the Lord.

God identified His elect from the very beginning of covenant history:

Genesis 17:12
And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Genetic pedigree was never a prerequisite for God's blessing. God slew pedigreed Israelites by the thousands whenever they disbelieved and disobeyed Him.

God's condition was always compliance with His covenant requirements, which always translated into faith and obedience.

Elsewhere He identified his tiny elect remnant with His well known description:

1 Kings 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Paul cites it in Romans 11:4.

In the New Testament, the elect continue to be identified exclusively as the faithful and obedient, believers who have put their faith and trust in Christ.

Luke 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?

Romans 8:33
Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Colossians 3:12
Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Romans 11:5
Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

1 Thessalonians 1:4
Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

1 Peter 5:13
The church that is at Babylon, elected together with you, saluteth you; and so doth Marcus my son.

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.


The seed of Israel is Christ (Galatians 3:16) and His Holy Nation the Church (1 Peter 2:9).
 
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Douggg

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How do you define "corporate Israel"?
The large group of Jews, citizens of Israel right now... Israel having become a nation again fulfilled Isaiah 66:8.

Israel, the biblical homeland for the Jews. Jerusalem the capital and location of the temple. Where Jesus will be returning to the Mt. of Olives which is just across the Kidron valley from the temple mount.

Corporate Israel is not you or I.
 
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Douggg

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Rom 11:23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

.
Corresponds to all Israel will be saved. Corporate Israel.
 
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jgr

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Isaiah 65:9 (NKJV) I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
And from Judah an heir of My mountains;
My elect shall inherit it,
And My servants shall dwell there.

Isaiah 65
14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.
15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Acts 11:26
And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
 
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Choose Wisely

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Awaiting your New Testament Scripture.
Translation.........I got nothing. I'm cut off at every corner and all that's left for me is to try to stuff words in your mouth so I can sidetrack you from the fact that I have nothing. I know that replacement theology is a failed belief but I don't know how to get out.

There........you said it. Finally.
 
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jgr

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Translation.........I got nothing. I'm cut off at every corner and all that's left for me is to try to stuff words in your mouth so I can sidetrack you from the fact that I have nothing. I know that replacement theology is a failed belief but I don't know how to get out.

There........you said it. Finally.
2 Corinthians 1:20 and Hebrews 1:1,2 are "nothing". That's a profound insight.

Since "nothing" is a description of a vacuum, you must have "something" to fill it.

What would that be?
 
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2 Corinthians 1:20 and Hebrews 1:1,2 are "nothing". That's a profound insight.

Since "nothing" is a description of a vacuum, you must have "something" to fill it.

What would that be?
Replacement theology cult?
 
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Douggg

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You have no idea if I am a direct descendant of Jacob.

You are making an assumption.


.
Is your mother a Jew? If yes, then you are a Jew. If not, then you are not a Jew. You may be a descendant of Jacob though. Solomon has a multitude of non-Israelite wives, for example.
 
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