Arminianism is absolutely illogical and unbiblical

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DeaconDean

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You contradict yourself. The Ninevites were not converts to being Hebrew.

Never said they were!

Produce a statement where I said they converted.

I said:

The Ninevites were used as an example for Jesus in the New Testament.

You were the one who brought them into this conversation.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Bobber

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There is no "whosoever" in calvinism.
Imagine this: When picking sides for my baseball team, I'm asked who I want for my side and I say: " Whosoever will" and then when people volunteer, I say: "Wait! Isn't it obvious that I meant I only want Jim, John, and Mary on my team?"
"But you said whosoever." They protest.
"And thats exactly what I meant. Whosoever. As long as it's Jim , John and Mary."
I think people would rightly conclude I was making no sense.

Not only that but if a business put out a sign advertising "Whosoever will may come and receive some FREE products" if they came to receive and people for no reason where turned away they could be taken to court. A JUST judge would say, "If you're going to say whosoever you've got to mean whosoever!"
 
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Loren T.

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Never said they were!

Produce a statement where I said they converted.

I said:



You were the one who brought them into this conversation.

God Bless

Till all are one.
"DeaconDean said: ↑
If you were not of the Hebrews, you were cut off from not only the blessings of God, but from Him as well.
You had to convert to being a Hebrew just like Ruth.

Rahab did God a favor and God showed grace to her.

The Ninevites were used as an example for Jesus in the New Testament."

The Ninivites were not cut off from God for not being Hebrew, obviously. And they did not convert to being Jews, yet were granted repentance.
 
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DeaconDean

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"DeaconDean said: ↑
If you were not of the Hebrews, you were cut off from not only the blessings of God, but from Him as well.
You had to convert to being a Hebrew just like Ruth.

Rahab did God a favor and God showed grace to her.

The Ninevites were used as an example for Jesus in the New Testament."

The Ninivites were not cut off from God for not being Hebrew, obviously. And they did not convert to being Jews, yet were granted repentance.

Again, show me where I'm the scriptures Nineveh were included in the blessings or curses contained in the Torah.

It is a fact that is indisputable that 99.7% of all scripture in the Old Testament was written to and for the Hebrews/Israel/Jews.

The other .3% deals with eschatology and history.

And that, no matter what you cry foul about, is non-debatable.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Loren T.

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Again, show me where I'm the scriptures Nineveh were included in the blessings or curses contained in the Torah.

It is a fact that is indisputable that 99.7% of all scripture in the Old Testament was written to and for the Hebrews/Israel/Jews.

The other .3% deals with eschatology and history.

And that, no matter what you cry foul about, is non-debatable.

God Bless

Till all are one.
No one is debating whether the OT was written primarily to the hebrews. The question was who could be saved. Obviously, salvation was not limited to a certain people group prior to Christ. So, the " Whosoever will" still applies.
 
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DeaconDean

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No one is debating whether the OT was written primarily to the hebrews. The question was who could be saved. Obviously, salvation was not limited to a certain people group prior to Christ. So, the " Whosoever will" still applies.

Not so, not from an Old Testament perspective. There was no "Whosoever will" ever said, recorded, or written in the Old Testament.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one .
 
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Loren T.

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Not so, not from an Old Testament perspective. There was no "Whosoever will" ever said, recorded, or written in the Old Testament.

Sorry.

God Bless

Till all are one .
Maybe not explicitly, but there are clues that God was out to save pagans also, if they would believe.
Like Exodus 7:5...why was God concerned with showing the Egyptians he was Lord? There may have been many pagans who became believers.
 
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DeaconDean

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To be fair to you, Loren T, I have searched the OT scriptures, and have once instance of something similar said.

But in doing so, I also show that it has direct reference to the future coming of the Messiah.

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." -Joel 2:32 (KJV)

Now, having shown that, here is what chapter 2 of Joel addresses:

"\\INTRODUCTION TO JOEL 2\\

In this chapter a further account is given of the judgment of the
locusts and caterpillars, or of those who are designed by them,
\\#Joe 2:1-11\\; the people of the Jews are called to repentance,
humiliation, and fasting, urged from the grace and goodness of God, his
jealousy and pity for his people, and the answer of prayer that might
he expected from him upon this, even to the removal of the calamity,
\\#Joe 2:12-20\\; a prophecy of good things, both temporal and
spiritual, in the times of the Messiah, is delivered out as matter and
occasion of great joy, \\#Joe 2:21-27\\; and another concerning the
effusion of the Spirit, which was fulfilled an the day of Pentecost,
\\#Joe 2:28-29\\; and the chapter is concluded with the judgments and
desolations that should come upon the land of Judea after this, for
their rejection of Christ, though the remnant according to the election
of grace should be delivered and saved from the general destruction,
\\#Joe 2:30-32\\
"

Source

Also, to the verse in question:

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the
name of the Lord shall be delivered


Or "saved", as in ( Acts 2:21 ) ; from those miseries and calamities before described, from the impending ruin and destruction of the city; and so it was, that those that believed in Christ, that were in the city, had an intimation of it beforehand, and removed from thence to a place called Pella F23, and so escaped being involved in the common calamity: though this also may be understood of a spiritual deliverance and salvation by Christ, from sin, Satan, and the world, and from the second death, and wrath to come, and out of the hands of every enemy; which such share in who call on the name of the Lord, pray to him for grace and mercy, life and salvation, through Christ; that have a spiritual knowledge of God in Christ, real and sincere desires after him, and trust and confidence in him, which this phrase supposes; and which also includes the whole worship of God, internal and external, performed in a spiritual and evangelical manner; see ( Romans 10:13 ) ;
for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said;

either by this prophet, or some others before him; see ( Psalms 14:7 ) ( Isaiah 59:20 ) ( Obadiah 1:21 ) ; this cannot be understood literally of Mount Zion and Jerusalem, unless it be of deliverance out of it; not in it, for Jerusalem was the seat of blood, confusion, and distress; but mystically of the church of Christ, often called Zion and Jerusalem, ( Hebrews 12:22 ) ; hither the deliverer came, here he is, and to be seen; from hence the word of the Lord came, the Gospel of salvation, which proclaims deliverance to the captives; here it is to be heard, met with, and found, ( Isaiah 2:3 ) ( Luke 4:18 ) ( Romans 11:26 ) ;

and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call;

not merely externally, by the outward ministry of the word; but internally, according to his purpose, and by his grace, powerfully and effectually, to the special blessings of grace here, and eternal glory hereafter: these are the remnant according to the election of grace; the little flock to whom God gives the kingdom; the few that enter in at the strait gate; the little city, and few men in it, delivered by the poor wise man; these share in the deliverance of Zion, and shall be certainly and completely saved, with an everlasting salvation. This may respect not only the remnant, or a small number of the Jews that believed in Christ, upon his first coming, and the preaching of the Gospel by his apostles, but the call and conversion of them in the latter day; which sense connects the words better with the following chapter.
FOOTNOTES:


F23 Euseb. Eccl. Hist. l. 3. c. 5. p. 75."

Ibid

So, at the time of this writing, this was an "as yet future prophesy".

Sorry, "whosoever will" is still not found in the OT.

Least wise as you understand it.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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DeaconDean

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Maybe not explicitly, but there are clues that God was out to save pagans also, if they would believe.
Like Exodus 7:5...why was God concerned with showing the Egyptians he was Lord? There may have been many pagans who became believers.

Because God wanted the Egyptians to know that is the great "I AM!"

It was Moses who caused the plagues. It was Moses who caused the death of the newborns. It was God, and His will to show that He is the great "I AM", the God above Egypt's gods.

Noe was it any simply parlor tick like Pharaoh's magicians.

That's why.

John Gill comments:

"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord
Jehovah, the one only true and living God; this they should know by the judgments executed upon them, and be obliged to acknowledge it:

when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt:
especially the last time, to destroy the firstborn:

and bring out the children of Israel from among them;
by which it would appear that he was mightier than they, and obtained the end for which the plagues were inflicted on them."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Loren T.

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To be fair to you, Loren T, I have searched the OT scriptures, and have once instance of something similar said.

But in doing so, I also show that it has direct reference to the future coming of the Messiah.

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." -Joel 2:32 (KJV)

Now, having shown that, here is what chapter 2 of Joel addresses:

"\\INTRODUCTION TO JOEL 2\\

In this chapter a further account is given of the judgment of the
locusts and caterpillars, or of those who are designed by them,
\\#Joe 2:1-11\\; the people of the Jews are called to repentance,
humiliation, and fasting, urged from the grace and goodness of God, his
jealousy and pity for his people, and the answer of prayer that might
he expected from him upon this, even to the removal of the calamity,
\\#Joe 2:12-20\\; a prophecy of good things, both temporal and
spiritual, in the times of the Messiah, is delivered out as matter and
occasion of great joy, \\#Joe 2:21-27\\; and another concerning the
effusion of the Spirit, which was fulfilled an the day of Pentecost,
\\#Joe 2:28-29\\; and the chapter is concluded with the judgments and
desolations that should come upon the land of Judea after this, for
their rejection of Christ, though the remnant according to the election
of grace should be delivered and saved from the general destruction,
\\#Joe 2:30-32\\
"

Source

Also, to the verse in question:

"And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the
name of the Lord shall be delivered


Or "saved", as in ( Acts 2:21 ) ; from those miseries and calamities before described, from the impending ruin and destruction of the city; and so it was, that those that believed in Christ, that were in the city, had an intimation of it beforehand, and removed from thence to a place called Pella F23, and so escaped being involved in the common calamity: though this also may be understood of a spiritual deliverance and salvation by Christ, from sin, Satan, and the world, and from the second death, and wrath to come, and out of the hands of every enemy; which such share in who call on the name of the Lord, pray to him for grace and mercy, life and salvation, through Christ; that have a spiritual knowledge of God in Christ, real and sincere desires after him, and trust and confidence in him, which this phrase supposes; and which also includes the whole worship of God, internal and external, performed in a spiritual and evangelical manner; see ( Romans 10:13 ) ;
for in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said;

either by this prophet, or some others before him; see ( Psalms 14:7 ) ( Isaiah 59:20 ) ( Obadiah 1:21 ) ; this cannot be understood literally of Mount Zion and Jerusalem, unless it be of deliverance out of it; not in it, for Jerusalem was the seat of blood, confusion, and distress; but mystically of the church of Christ, often called Zion and Jerusalem, ( Hebrews 12:22 ) ; hither the deliverer came, here he is, and to be seen; from hence the word of the Lord came, the Gospel of salvation, which proclaims deliverance to the captives; here it is to be heard, met with, and found, ( Isaiah 2:3 ) ( Luke 4:18 ) ( Romans 11:26 ) ;

and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call;

not merely externally, by the outward ministry of the word; but internally, according to his purpose, and by his grace, powerfully and effectually, to the special blessings of grace here, and eternal glory hereafter: these are the remnant according to the election of grace; the little flock to whom God gives the kingdom; the few that enter in at the strait gate; the little city, and few men in it, delivered by the poor wise man; these share in the deliverance of Zion, and shall be certainly and completely saved, with an everlasting salvation. This may respect not only the remnant, or a small number of the Jews that believed in Christ, upon his first coming, and the preaching of the Gospel by his apostles, but the call and conversion of them in the latter day; which sense connects the words better with the following chapter.
FOOTNOTES:


F23 Euseb. Eccl. Hist. l. 3. c. 5. p. 75."

Ibid

So, at the time of this writing, this was an "as yet future prophesy".

Sorry, "whosoever will" is still not found in the OT.

Least wise as you understand it.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Whose commentary?
 
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Loren T.

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Because God wanted the Egyptians to know that is the great "I AM!"

It was Moses who caused the plagues. It was Moses who caused the death of the newborns. It was God, and His will to show that He is the great "I AM", the God above Egypt's gods.

Noe was it any simply parlor tick like Pharaoh's magicians.

That's why.

John Gill comments:

"And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord
Jehovah, the one only true and living God; this they should know by the judgments executed upon them, and be obliged to acknowledge it:

when I stretch forth mine hand upon Egypt:
especially the last time, to destroy the firstborn:

and bring out the children of Israel from among them;
by which it would appear that he was mightier than they, and obtained the end for which the plagues were inflicted on them."

Source

God Bless

Till all are one.

I see your John Gill and raise you Adam Clarke.
Exodus 7:5

The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord.

A knowledge of God


I. That the worst of men will one day have to recognize the reality of the Divine existence. “And the Egyptians shall know,” etc.

1. Men of bad moral character shall know this.

2. Men of sceptical dispositions shall know this.


II. That they will be brought to a recognition of the Divine existence by severe judgments.

1. Some men will listen to the voice of reason. The Egyptians would not.

2. Such will learn the existence of God by judgment.
 
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DeaconDean

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Adam Clarke.

You want me to take seriously a man who would not believe or accept that Jesus Christ, the second person of the God-Head, did not exist from eternity?

"Perhaps his most controversial position regarded the eternal Sonship of Jesus. Clarke did not believe it biblically faithful to affirm this doctrine, maintaining that prior to the Incarnation, Jesus was "unoriginated"."

Source

And still, you have not proven "Whosoever will" from the Old Testament.

And you wont.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Loren T.

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You want me to take seriously a man who would not believe or accept that Jesus Christ, the second person of the God-Head, did not exist from eternity?

"Perhaps his most controversial position regarded the eternal Sonship of Jesus. Clarke did not believe it biblically faithful to affirm this doctrine, maintaining that prior to the Incarnation, Jesus was "unoriginated"."

Source

And still, you have not proven "Whosoever will" from the Old Testament.

And you wont.

God Bless

Till all are one.
And why would I ever take a hyper calvinist seriously?
 
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DeaconDean

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And why would I ever take a hyper calvinist seriously?

Unprovable. Argumentative at best.

"Tom Nettles and Timothy George have argued that Gill was not a hyper-Calvinist."

  1. Nettles 1986.
  2. George 1990.
  3. Ella 2009.
Source

And still, you have not shown "whosoever will" from the Old Testament.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Loren T.

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Unprovable. Argumentative at best.

"Tom Nettles and Timothy George have argued that Gill was not a hyper-Calvinist."

  1. Nettles 1986.
  2. George 1990.
  3. Ella 2009.
Source

And still, you have not shown "whosoever will" from the Old Testament.

God Bless

Till all are one.
Lol. It was you that brought up the Old Testament, apparently as a diversion... Because we were discussing John 3:16 and the Calvinist perversion of it.
 
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DeaconDean

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Lol. It was you that brought up the Old Testament, apparently as a diversion... Because we were discussing John 3:16 and the Calvinist perversion of it.

No, I entered on the "whosoever will" argument.

God Bless

Till all are one.
 
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Bobber

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And why does it spirit of God bring one person to True humility, while another rebels all the more, and refuses the Spirits work?
If there's a mystery to Salvation that's it right there. The mystery is not with what God wills. He wills for all to come to repentence.

I'd contend that God can't bring a person to humility. Not in the real sense. He can create circumstances which will humble a person, group or nation as he did with Israel but that's not a sign they embrace humility.

And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no (Deuteronomy 8:2)

They were obedient at times but ultimately and sadly....they grumbled and rebelled and didn't end up entering the Promised Land, except Joshua and Caleb and the next generation. God resists the proud but gives his grace to the humble. If God humbles one they may choose humility as Jonah did in the whale BUT.....still their choice. Some people at the point of death still won't choose humility albeit...some will.....the thieves on the cross....two there....one did....that other didn't.
 
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KarateCowboy

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So to sum up: Your point is; Christianity had it all wrong until Calvin showed up?
Well you see, five hundred years after Calvin and Luther we have many churches that accurately reflect their teachings. Calvin and Luther were able to establish churches that could faithfully and accurately pass on their teachings to posterity, contiguously, over centuries. However, Calvin and Luther are greater than Peter, Paul, and even Christ Himself. That's why those three were unable to do the same.

Well, that's the logical end of protestant teaching, anyway.

Another inescapable conclusion of Calvinism is that God created Satan and Evil.
 
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